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marky_b27
Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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Location: Nottingham, England
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 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| philyeagles3 wrote: | Do any of you remember hearing Vick yell "Kill, Kill, Kill" a couple of times a game?
Lol that's an audible, that wasn't something Reid ever allowed his QB to do before. |
That's not a real audible. In the play call they call two plays and the QB can switch to the kill play if he doesn't like the original call.
We've done that for ages.
I real audible is something which Manning among others do well i.e. adjust formations.
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| oland11 on America's use of Fahrenheit wrote: | | I know. We're stupid. |
| RainbowCarebear wrote: | | Again bloody fool him Howie. |
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BLick12
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 23660
Location: South Jeezy fo sheezy
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Art_Vandalay wrote: | C'mon now. You all can't say I'm taking the easy way out with that evaluation then say, "Well, we won 7 out of the last 8 times we faced them." I don't care about what happened 2/3/4 years ago. How is that relevant at all? All I care about is what's going on now. We split last year and they won the Super Bowl. There's a reason they won it too. The team that was playing in the postseason wasn't the same 9-7 team that played in the regular season.
As far as our young guys are concerned, we're not going to figure out how good they are as long as the defensive staff is trying to jam their square peg into a round hole. We have talent, but the staff isn't utilizing it correctly. They're just trying to force their system rather than adjust. Their stubbornness is going to lead to their firing. I honestly don't see any reason to believe we can beat out the Giants for the division unless you can convince me that beating them several years ago with a completely different roster and coaching staff is somehow significant now. |
Art, it is relevant because you don't just become talented over night. Sure the roster may not be entirely the same but we've had as much talent as the Giants every single year we play them, including this past year. We could've easily beaten them twice this year if not for Steve Smith catching the ball with his face in the red zone and getting stuffed on 4th and 1 925389023 times. The Giants were nothing more than an above average football team during the regular season, they were the definition of inconsistent. 1 game was the difference between the two teams this year, as far as getting into the playoffs. Yes, they are a team built very well for the playoffs, that cannot be disputed, you and I both obviously made some money off of them this post season, but they also received some incredibly good fortune on the way to the SB. Horrible STs from SF, 2 crucial dropped INTs by their dbacks, not to mention their krypton NO getting eliminated by SF. Not to take anything away from the Giants they clearly earned their SB but they didn't do it on talent alone.
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| johndeere1707 wrote: |
Another Ginger QB in the AFC North.
Looking forward to the "No Soul Bowl" twice a year
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philyeagles3
Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 3555
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| marky_b27 wrote: | | philyeagles3 wrote: | Do any of you remember hearing Vick yell "Kill, Kill, Kill" a couple of times a game?
Lol that's an audible, that wasn't something Reid ever allowed his QB to do before. |
That's not a real audible. In the play call they call two plays and the QB can switch to the kill play if he doesn't like the original call.
We've done that for ages.
I real audible is something which Manning among others do well i.e. adjust formations. |
It's a small example for people who may not have looked for the less conspicuous details. However, that is an audible lol and I don't believe we have doing that for ages.. Vick sets the formations, just trying to help people understand there was a a significant change in the offense this year, that's all
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highboy
Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 235
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| birdman0069 wrote: | | Now you are changing your story. Earlier you said we were a power running team in previous seasons. As I said, that couldn't be further from the truth. Just because our blocking scheme changes doesn't mean our offensive philosophy changes. We are a verticle attacking offense that relies on multiple reads, getting up early and running the ball after we have a lead. That's a philosophy my friend. As I stated. Vick is a one read QB. That's where Vick is at his best. Stats don't lie and stats say Vick turns the ball over to often due to his inability to read defences properly and his lack of ball security. These are not opinions, they are facts. |
Bingo. |
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nlesthought
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 7693
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| birdman0069 wrote: | | Now you are changing your story. Earlier you said we were a power running team in previous seasons. As I said, that couldn't be further from the truth. Just because our blocking scheme changes doesn't mean our offensive philosophy changes. We are a verticle attacking offense that relies on multiple reads, getting up early and running the ball after we have a lead. That's a philosophy my friend. As I stated. Vick is a one read QB. That's where Vick is at his best. Stats don't lie and stats say Vick turns the ball over to often due to his inability to read defences properly and his lack of ball security. These are not opinions, they are facts. |
We are indeed a vertical passing team, BUT that's not multiple read offense. If you have 3 seam or "vertical" or even deeper routes its one read, find and influence the safety (safeties). All the deeper routes we run is mostly 1 read. If the safety bails and covers the deep route, hit whatever underneath route there is whether thats another WR or the TE. That's a natural progression....
So yeah in a sense Vick is a "one read" QB. Since we're a 1 read offense, (hard to go to WRs 3&4 when they are running deep routes as well) it makes sense that MV starts to look at the pressure and an escape route or checkdown.
(presnap) Coverage reads is what Indy/NE/NO does where option routes are involved and where the QB pre-snap reads the D and knows PRE-SNAP where he's going with the ball. He may look one way and come back, thats because pre-snap he's diagnosed coverage and by looking off that side he eventually throws to has relaxed.
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philyeagles3
Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 3555
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| birdman0069 wrote: | | Now you are changing your story. Earlier you said we were a power running team in previous seasons. As I said, that couldn't be further from the truth. Just because our blocking scheme changes doesn't mean our offensive philosophy changes. We are a verticle attacking offense that relies on multiple reads, getting up early and running the ball after we have a lead. That's a philosophy my friend. As I stated. Vick is a one read QB. That's where Vick is at his best. Stats don't lie and stats say Vick turns the ball over to often due to his inability to read defences properly and his lack of ball security. These are not opinions, they are facts. |
I just don't even realize how this turned out to be about Vick's progressions with routes. Just goes to show how much you guys read and stay to the topic. 
Routes are half the play, I don't know why you guys are hooked on this and I don't know why you are arguing this to me. I can't tell you how his progressions work, I don't have the playbook. I can tell you his general responsibilities in this zone blocking scheme, though.
But yet somehow this always escapes your posts and you blab on about routes and Vick being a one read QB. When thats not what Im trying to argue.
IM TALKING ABOUT PRESNAP ADJUSTMENTS WITH MUDDS ZONE BLOCKING SCHEME NOT ABOUT WR ROUTES. BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THE OFFENSIVE LINE IS A PART OF THE PLAYS AS WELL.
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Art_Vandalay
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 20384
Location: Thornton, CO
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| BLick12 wrote: | | Art_Vandalay wrote: | C'mon now. You all can't say I'm taking the easy way out with that evaluation then say, "Well, we won 7 out of the last 8 times we faced them." I don't care about what happened 2/3/4 years ago. How is that relevant at all? All I care about is what's going on now. We split last year and they won the Super Bowl. There's a reason they won it too. The team that was playing in the postseason wasn't the same 9-7 team that played in the regular season.
As far as our young guys are concerned, we're not going to figure out how good they are as long as the defensive staff is trying to jam their square peg into a round hole. We have talent, but the staff isn't utilizing it correctly. They're just trying to force their system rather than adjust. Their stubbornness is going to lead to their firing. I honestly don't see any reason to believe we can beat out the Giants for the division unless you can convince me that beating them several years ago with a completely different roster and coaching staff is somehow significant now. |
Art, it is relevant because you don't just become talented over night. Sure the roster may not be entirely the same but we've had as much talent as the Giants every single year we play them, including this past year. We could've easily beaten them twice this year if not for Steve Smith catching the ball with his face in the red zone and getting stuffed on 4th and 1 925389023 times. The Giants were nothing more than an above average football team during the regular season, they were the definition of inconsistent. 1 game was the difference between the two teams this year, as far as getting into the playoffs. Yes, they are a team built very well for the playoffs, that cannot be disputed, you and I both obviously made some money off of them this post season, but they also received some incredibly good fortune on the way to the SB. Horrible STs from SF, 2 crucial dropped INTs by their dbacks, not to mention their krypton NO getting eliminated by SF. Not to take anything away from the Giants they clearly earned their SB but they didn't do it on talent alone. |
It's not relevant at all. When we would say, "Well, we beat you guys 6 times in a row lol" I thought it was just to take a jab at them. I didn't think people actually thought there was more to it. Why don't we go back 8 years? We'd be around even. Does that mean anything? Or is it only relevant if it's a 4 year timespan?
Let's not play the what if game. The Giants caught some really bad breaks too. I could bring up the Seahawks game where Cruz did what Steve Smith did and cause a game ending and cause a pick 6. Or the WRs dropping a ton of wide open, big play passes against the Redskins in the 2nd meeting. We had a cupcake schedule and still blew it. Hell, we were fortunate enough to get matched up against the Falcons and Bears instead of the Saints and Packers like the Giants did but still couldn't take advantage.
No team does it on talent alone, but they have the right recipe for building a great team. They do their homework, draft the right guys that fit their scheme, and coach them up. We pick names out of a hat during the draft, pay a bunch of free agents to mask our botched draft picks, and play musical chairs with our coaching staff who like to force their beliefs rather than learn about the players strengths. Sorry, but we're turning into the Redskins. |
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BLick12
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 23660
Location: South Jeezy fo sheezy
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Art_Vandalay wrote: | | BLick12 wrote: | | Art_Vandalay wrote: | C'mon now. You all can't say I'm taking the easy way out with that evaluation then say, "Well, we won 7 out of the last 8 times we faced them." I don't care about what happened 2/3/4 years ago. How is that relevant at all? All I care about is what's going on now. We split last year and they won the Super Bowl. There's a reason they won it too. The team that was playing in the postseason wasn't the same 9-7 team that played in the regular season.
As far as our young guys are concerned, we're not going to figure out how good they are as long as the defensive staff is trying to jam their square peg into a round hole. We have talent, but the staff isn't utilizing it correctly. They're just trying to force their system rather than adjust. Their stubbornness is going to lead to their firing. I honestly don't see any reason to believe we can beat out the Giants for the division unless you can convince me that beating them several years ago with a completely different roster and coaching staff is somehow significant now. |
Art, it is relevant because you don't just become talented over night. Sure the roster may not be entirely the same but we've had as much talent as the Giants every single year we play them, including this past year. We could've easily beaten them twice this year if not for Steve Smith catching the ball with his face in the red zone and getting stuffed on 4th and 1 925389023 times. The Giants were nothing more than an above average football team during the regular season, they were the definition of inconsistent. 1 game was the difference between the two teams this year, as far as getting into the playoffs. Yes, they are a team built very well for the playoffs, that cannot be disputed, you and I both obviously made some money off of them this post season, but they also received some incredibly good fortune on the way to the SB. Horrible STs from SF, 2 crucial dropped INTs by their dbacks, not to mention their krypton NO getting eliminated by SF. Not to take anything away from the Giants they clearly earned their SB but they didn't do it on talent alone. |
It's not relevant at all. When we would say, "Well, we beat you guys 6 times in a row lol" I thought it was just to take a jab at them. I didn't think people actually thought there was more to it. Why don't we go back 8 years? We'd be around even. Does that mean anything? Or is it only relevant if it's a 4 year timespan?
Let's not play the what if game. The Giants caught some really bad breaks too. I could bring up the Seahawks game where Cruz did what Steve Smith did and cause a game ending and cause a pick 6. Or the WRs dropping a ton of wide open, big play passes against the Redskins in the 2nd meeting. We had a cupcake schedule and still blew it. Hell, we were fortunate enough to get matched up against the Falcons and Bears instead of the Saints and Packers like the Giants did but still couldn't take advantage.
No team does it on talent alone, but they have the right recipe for building a great team. They do their homework, draft the right guys that fit their scheme, and coach them up. We pick names out of a hat during the draft, pay a bunch of free agents to mask our botched draft picks, and play musical chairs with our coaching staff who like to force their beliefs rather than learn about the players strengths. Sorry, but we're turning into the Redskins. |
You know what I'm saying. It isn't relevance in the regard you stated but it is relevant in the fact that we have had as much talent as the Giants have over the last 5 years. Your claim that they draft so much better and put together better talent obviously isn't all that accurate if they haven't been significantly better than us in that time. Yes, they have won 2 SBs but they got hot/healthy at the right time, executed well and got some favorable rolls their way. They have never truly been the class of the NFC at any point during the regular season, but they have strung together two great SB runs.
The whole you can only draft talent to win a SB isn't accurate, what difference does it make trading for a sure thing like Jason Peters versus drafting a Michael Oher?
And we played poorly this year there is no denying that, but there were a lot of new faces on this team (player and coaching wise), a short off season for them, and poor coaching/execution at all the wrong times. I would've liked to see Andy shown the door but I'm curious to see what this team does this off-season to improve its roster and performance next year. While I think the NFC as a whole is improved I still think the Eagles are dangerous competition, and I think that showed when nobody wanted to see us get into the playoffs last year.
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| johndeere1707 wrote: |
Another Ginger QB in the AFC North.
Looking forward to the "No Soul Bowl" twice a year
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birdman0069
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 6086
Location: Key West, FL
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| philyeagles3 wrote: | | birdman0069 wrote: | | Now you are changing your story. Earlier you said we were a power running team in previous seasons. As I said, that couldn't be further from the truth. Just because our blocking scheme changes doesn't mean our offensive philosophy changes. We are a verticle attacking offense that relies on multiple reads, getting up early and running the ball after we have a lead. That's a philosophy my friend. As I stated. Vick is a one read QB. That's where Vick is at his best. Stats don't lie and stats say Vick turns the ball over to often due to his inability to read defences properly and his lack of ball security. These are not opinions, they are facts. |
I just don't even realize how this turned out to be about Vick's progressions with routes. Just goes to show how much you guys read and stay to the topic.
Routes are half the play, I don't know why you guys are hooked on this and I don't know why you are arguing this to me. I can't tell you how his progressions work, I don't have the playbook. I can tell you his general responsibilities in this zone blocking scheme, though.
But yet somehow this always escapes your posts and you blab on about routes and Vick being a one read QB. When thats not what Im trying to argue.
IM TALKING ABOUT PRESNAP ADJUSTMENTS WITH MUDDS ZONE BLOCKING SCHEME NOT ABOUT WR ROUTES. BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THE OFFENSIVE LINE IS A PART OF THE PLAYS AS WELL. |
The blocking scheme has nothing to do with how Vick performs in terms of where he goes with the ball, if he can read defenses and wether he sees the blitz or not. You started this non-sence about Vick being in a new offence when indeed that couldn't be further from the truth. Vick is the same average QB he has always been and the fact is you have access to all of his stats and still make try and make an arguement that he is, or can be, an elite QB when there is no proff, what so ever, to back that up. All this comes down to is, is Vick smart enough to ba a QB before being an athlete and the ansewer is, and always has been, NO! A tiger can't change his spots.
In terms of being a verticle offence, it is very much a multi read offence. Deep is your first read wether it be a fly route or deep post, ect.... The next read is usually an 8-10 yard out or curl. The 3rd route, depending on down and distance, is usually a seam route from the TE or the RB in the flats. There is always a progression of 3 to 4 reads and Vick rarely makes it through his progressions before tucking the ball and taking off. Vick locks in on one guy and either forces the play or takes off running. A good QB goes through his progressions and often back to his first option. Vick will never be that guy.
The bottom line is, Vick may win some games but will never win big games and will never be an elite QB in this league. Be a homer and sniff his jock or don't be a homer and see things for what they are. The truth is the truth and stats back that up.
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PE, the new poster child for birth control.
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philyeagles3
Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 3555
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| birdman0069 wrote: | | philyeagles3 wrote: | | birdman0069 wrote: | | Now you are changing your story. Earlier you said we were a power running team in previous seasons. As I said, that couldn't be further from the truth. Just because our blocking scheme changes doesn't mean our offensive philosophy changes. We are a verticle attacking offense that relies on multiple reads, getting up early and running the ball after we have a lead. That's a philosophy my friend. As I stated. Vick is a one read QB. That's where Vick is at his best. Stats don't lie and stats say Vick turns the ball over to often due to his inability to read defences properly and his lack of ball security. These are not opinions, they are facts. |
I just don't even realize how this turned out to be about Vick's progressions with routes. Just goes to show how much you guys read and stay to the topic.
Routes are half the play, I don't know why you guys are hooked on this and I don't know why you are arguing this to me. I can't tell you how his progressions work, I don't have the playbook. I can tell you his general responsibilities in this zone blocking scheme, though.
But yet somehow this always escapes your posts and you blab on about routes and Vick being a one read QB. When thats not what Im trying to argue.
IM TALKING ABOUT PRESNAP ADJUSTMENTS WITH MUDDS ZONE BLOCKING SCHEME NOT ABOUT WR ROUTES. BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THE OFFENSIVE LINE IS A PART OF THE PLAYS AS WELL. |
The blocking scheme has nothing to do with how Vick performs in terms of where he goes with the ball, if he can read defenses and wether he sees the blitz or not. You started this non-sence about Vick being in a new offence when indeed that couldn't be further from the truth. Vick is the same average QB he has always been and the fact is you have access to all of his stats and still make try and make an arguement that he is, or can be, an elite QB when there is no proff, what so ever, to back that up. All this comes down to is, is Vick smart enough to ba a QB before being an athlete and the ansewer is, and always has been, NO! A tiger can't change his spots.
In terms of being a verticle offence, it is very much a multi read offence. Deep is your first read wether it be a fly route or deep post, ect.... The next read is usually an 8-10 yard out or curl. The 3rd route, depending on down and distance, is usually a seam route from the TE or the RB in the flats. There is always a progression of 3 to 4 reads and Vick rarely makes it through his progressions before tucking the ball and taking off. Vick locks in on one guy and either forces the play or takes off running. A good QB goes through his progressions and often back to his first option. Vick will never be that guy.
The bottom line is, Vick may win some games but will never win big games and will never be an elite QB in this league. Be a homer and sniff his jock or don't be a homer and see things for what they are. The truth is the truth and stats back that up. |
Lol see this is putting words in peoples mouth, that statement is not true. A dare you to come up with anything about me saying vick will be an elite qb. Like your not even worth responding too because of how bad you are at reading.
Your just not understanding anything im saying and continuing to post about stuff that im not talking about while filling you post up with false accusations.
I never mentioned the receivers and you continue to blab.
Riddle me this, is the zone blocking new? Is that not part of the offense?
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philyeagles3
Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 3555
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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Agree to disagree. I'll take up a bet with you though Birdman0069 if you are willing to discuss the betting line.
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birdman0069
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 6086
Location: Key West, FL
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| philyeagles3 wrote: | | Agree to disagree. I'll take up a bet with you though Birdman0069 if you are willing to discuss the betting line. |
I'll take your bet.
Vick won't throw for 3,500 yards, Will miss atleast 3 games, will throw over 13 Int's and under 20 TD's. Pretty much a mirror image of last season. Loser begs for forgiveness with a sig designed by Ian. Fair?
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Props to Eagles _808 on the sig.
PE, the new poster child for birth control.
Birdman, slowest to 10K |
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philyeagles3
Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 3555
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| birdman0069 wrote: | | philyeagles3 wrote: | | Agree to disagree. I'll take up a bet with you though Birdman0069 if you are willing to discuss the betting line. |
I'll take your bet.
Vick won't throw for 3,500 yards, Will miss atleast 3 games, will throw over 13 Int's and under 20 TD's. Pretty much a mirror image of last season. Loser begs for forgiveness with a sig designed by Ian. Fair? |
Take out the missing games part and you have a deal.
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birdman0069
Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 6086
Location: Key West, FL
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| philyeagles3 wrote: | | birdman0069 wrote: | | philyeagles3 wrote: | | Agree to disagree. I'll take up a bet with you though Birdman0069 if you are willing to discuss the betting line. |
I'll take your bet.
Vick won't throw for 3,500 yards, Will miss atleast 3 games, will throw over 13 Int's and under 20 TD's. Pretty much a mirror image of last season. Loser begs for forgiveness with a sig designed by Ian. Fair? |
Take out the missing games part and you have a deal. |
Done. You have a bet Sir.
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PE, the new poster child for birth control.
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nlesthought
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 7693
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| birdman0069 wrote: | | philyeagles3 wrote: | | birdman0069 wrote: | | Now you are changing your story. Earlier you said we were a power running team in previous seasons. As I said, that couldn't be further from the truth. Just because our blocking scheme changes doesn't mean our offensive philosophy changes. We are a verticle attacking offense that relies on multiple reads, getting up early and running the ball after we have a lead. That's a philosophy my friend. As I stated. Vick is a one read QB. That's where Vick is at his best. Stats don't lie and stats say Vick turns the ball over to often due to his inability to read defences properly and his lack of ball security. These are not opinions, they are facts. |
I just don't even realize how this turned out to be about Vick's progressions with routes. Just goes to show how much you guys read and stay to the topic.
Routes are half the play, I don't know why you guys are hooked on this and I don't know why you are arguing this to me. I can't tell you how his progressions work, I don't have the playbook. I can tell you his general responsibilities in this zone blocking scheme, though.
But yet somehow this always escapes your posts and you blab on about routes and Vick being a one read QB. When thats not what Im trying to argue.
IM TALKING ABOUT PRESNAP ADJUSTMENTS WITH MUDDS ZONE BLOCKING SCHEME NOT ABOUT WR ROUTES. BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THE OFFENSIVE LINE IS A PART OF THE PLAYS AS WELL. |
The blocking scheme has nothing to do with how Vick performs in terms of where he goes with the ball, if he can read defenses and wether he sees the blitz or not. You started this non-sence about Vick being in a new offence when indeed that couldn't be further from the truth. Vick is the same average QB he has always been and the fact is you have access to all of his stats and still make try and make an arguement that he is, or can be, an elite QB when there is no proff, what so ever, to back that up. All this comes down to is, is Vick smart enough to ba a QB before being an athlete and the ansewer is, and always has been, NO! A tiger can't change his spots.
In terms of being a verticle offence, it is very much a multi read offence. Deep is your first read wether it be a fly route or deep post, ect.... The next read is usually an 8-10 yard out or curl. The 3rd route, depending on down and distance, is usually a seam route from the TE or the RB in the flats. There is always a progression of 3 to 4 reads and Vick rarely makes it through his progressions before tucking the ball and taking off. Vick locks in on one guy and either forces the play or takes off running. A good QB goes through his progressions and often back to his first option. Vick will never be that guy.
The bottom line is, Vick may win some games but will never win big games and will never be an elite QB in this league. Be a homer and sniff his jock or don't be a homer and see things for what they are. The truth is the truth and stats back that up. |
You said its a vertical passing game, when have you seen 8-10 yard curls in our offense? I've seen 5-7 yard hitch routes but that's on a 3 step drop. And what your describing above is the dumbest thing I've heard.  You must not know route combinations I've NEVER seen first read fly 2nd read a curl and the next read a seam route. THATS NOT A NATURAL PROGRESSION. In a 5 step drop you can't go deep, short, and back to deep or even shorter. The routes are covered up by then. Even if Tom Brady is looking deep to short (8-10 curl) back to a seam route or even a flat route he's taking a hit by then.
If by what your saying is true then we should have one of the worst offenses known to mankind. Also that doesn't say its a multi-read offense. There's no reading in what you described there.
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