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oakdb36
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: The 3-4 |
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All those Houston Texans guys we brought in had me thinking about this team and the type of D they were running last year (i know we didn't bring any D guys...).
It was a one gap 3-4 ran by Wade Phillips. That's the kind of D he has always ran in his pro career. That's obviously the kind of D he was running when he was with the Falcons and our own Dennis Allen was a member of the defensive coaching staff. That's the only 3-4 Dennis Allen has ever been a part of in the NFL.
That's a 3-4 scheme in which you don't have the need for the same kind of NT as in a 2 gap 3-4 because dlinemen are shooting gaps. In Atlanta, Ed Jasper (6'2 - 293) was the NT. In Dallas, it was Jay Ratliff (6'4 - 290). Last year in Houston, it was Shaun Cody (6'4 - 301) and Earl Mitchell (6'3 - 290). Not exactly your typical NT right there.
So what i'm saying is, despite our lack of a true 3-4 NT (the 2 gap kind), the 3-4 could still be part of our plans for the upcoming season. Guys like Kelly, Bryant, Bilukidi or Hamilton could fill that role in a one gap scheme. |
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early43
Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: The 3-4 |
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| oakdb36 wrote: | All those Houston Texans guys we brought in had me thinking about this team and the type of D they were running last year (i know we didn't bring any D guys...).
It was a one gap 3-4 ran by Wade Phillips. That's the kind of D he has always ran in his pro career. That's obviously the kind of D he was running when he was with the Falcons and our own Dennis Allen was a member of the defensive coaching staff. That's the only 3-4 Dennis Allen has ever been a part of in the NFL.
That's a 3-4 scheme in which you don't have the need for the same kind of NT as in a 2 gap 3-4 because dlinemen are shooting gaps. In Atlanta, Ed Jasper (6'2 - 293) was the NT. In Dallas, it was Jay Ratliff (6'4 - 290). Last year in Houston, it was Shaun Cody (6'4 - 301) and Earl Mitchell (6'3 - 290). Not exactly your typical NT right there.
So what i'm saying is, despite our lack of a true 3-4 NT (the 2 gap kind), the 3-4 could still be part of our plans for the upcoming season. Guys like Kelly, Bryant, Bilukidi or Hamilton could fill that role in a one gap scheme. |
I have always thpught Kelly could play the NT similar to Ratlif style of play. |
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OakRaiders3828
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 9151
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah people seem to think that you need a 400 lb NT to be successful in a 3-4, hence the reason people hate the draft because we didn't grab one, maybe we just don't need one. I think we have some guys, like you said that would be successful in a 1 gap 3-4. Again, Reggie knows what he's doing and what type of personnel that we need for our scheme more than us.
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TiberiusRising
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 5578
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| OakRaiders3828 wrote: | | Yeah people seem to think that you need a 400 lb NT to be successful in a 3-4, hence the reason people hate the draft because we didn't grab one, maybe we just don't need one. I think we have some guys, like you said that would be successful in a 1 gap 3-4. Again, Reggie knows what he's doing and what type of personnel that we need for our scheme more than us. |
Exactly people are obsessed with the 3-4 like it is going to help us stop the run. We haven't stopped the run because of poor gap discipline, poor tackling and poor conditioning. No NT or 3-4 alligment will fix that. However Allen has said all of the above already so I am confident we will finally get this fixed. |
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LivingLegendWFC
Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Posts: 10956
Location: BP On The Geno Sig
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| I personally think were running a 4-3 and don't see the need to switch. We have the pieces for a 4-3, we just need better coaching and to continue to add talent. McKenzie has spent the majority of his career with four man fronts, don't see why we need to switch. I'm sure we will show numerous things, sometimes I don't get the obsession with a 4-3, some make it out to be like switching scheme means instant success. This team imo is currently better equipped for a 4-3, no need to force something else just to do it. |
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agarcia34
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| I think It might be a slow transition to a 34 with each draft getting more players that fit it. With this draft we got one of the pass rushing OLB's we need and a possible ILB. Still missing the other one OLB. and possibly a NT. And the 2013 NFL draft is gonna have some major impact players at OLB. |
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TiberiusRising
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| agarcia34 wrote: | | I think It might be a slow transition to a 34 with each draft getting more players that fit it. With this draft we got one of the pass rushing OLB's we need and a possible ILB. Still missing the other one OLB. and possibly a NT. And the 2013 NFL draft is gonna have some major impact players at OLB. |
If we did go with a NT next season I wouldnt mind one of those two guys from Georgia. |
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DOCLEW 28
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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Location: East Oakland
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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When you see guys like Bilukidi being drafted at 6-5, 311 and Dominique Hamilton at 6-5, 315 and Raphael Guidry at 6-4, 290, you have to wonder if we are loading up with 5 technique type guys to run the 3-4. No one really knows how these guys will fare in that defense. Or we could just be loading up on UT's to play the 4-3.
Its really a waiting game to see what we come out in once the season starts. Because we seem to be loading up on linebackers too.
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Silver&Black88
Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 24659
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| DOCLEW 28 wrote: | When you see guys like Bilukidi being drafted at 6-5, 311 and Dominique Hamilton at 6-5, 315 and Raphael Guidry at 6-4, 290, you have to wonder if we are loading up with 5 technique type guys to run the 3-4. No one really knows how these guys will fare in that defense. Or we could just be loading up on UT's to play the 4-3.
Its really a waiting game to see what we come out in once the season starts. Because we seem to be loading up on linebackers too. |
Pretty much my line of thought which is why I found it so puzzling that we had T'amu and Chapman looking us in the face and we said meh. Even the LB's we picked would fit in a 3-4
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DOCLEW 28
Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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Location: East Oakland
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver&Black88 wrote: | | DOCLEW 28 wrote: | When you see guys like Bilukidi being drafted at 6-5, 311 and Dominique Hamilton at 6-5, 315 and Raphael Guidry at 6-4, 290, you have to wonder if we are loading up with 5 technique type guys to run the 3-4. No one really knows how these guys will fare in that defense. Or we could just be loading up on UT's to play the 4-3.
Its really a waiting game to see what we come out in once the season starts. Because we seem to be loading up on linebackers too. |
Pretty much my line of thought which is why I found it so puzzling that we had T'amu and Chapman looking us in the face and we said meh. Even the LB's we picked would fit in a 3-4 |
The only thing I can think of is that we looked at both of their injury histories and slotted them on our board for a certain round. One they were gone it was time to go somewhere else. Bergstrom was a better value at the end of the 3rd round that Ta'amu was with his injury history and production at U-Dub. And ditto for Burris with Chapman's knee at the end of the 4th round.
We had to know that there were other options out there and you can see that in the number of DT's we have stockpiled this weekend. Hopefully it pans out. But you can never really tell how a guy with pre-existing injuries will fare once they start NFL play full time.
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Silver&Black88
Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| DOCLEW 28 wrote: | | Silver&Black88 wrote: | | DOCLEW 28 wrote: | When you see guys like Bilukidi being drafted at 6-5, 311 and Dominique Hamilton at 6-5, 315 and Raphael Guidry at 6-4, 290, you have to wonder if we are loading up with 5 technique type guys to run the 3-4. No one really knows how these guys will fare in that defense. Or we could just be loading up on UT's to play the 4-3.
Its really a waiting game to see what we come out in once the season starts. Because we seem to be loading up on linebackers too. |
Pretty much my line of thought which is why I found it so puzzling that we had T'amu and Chapman looking us in the face and we said meh. Even the LB's we picked would fit in a 3-4 |
The only thing I can think of is that we looked at both of their injury histories and slotted them on our board for a certain round. One they were gone it was time to go somewhere else. Bergstrom was a better value at the end of the 3rd round that Ta'amu was with his injury history and production at U-Dub. And ditto for Burris with Chapman's knee at the end of the 4th round.
We had to know that there were other options out there and you can see that in the number of DT's we have stockpiled this weekend. Hopefully it pans out. But you can never really tell how a guy with pre-existing injuries will fare once they start NFL play full time. |
True but still, I read on numerous sites Burris was even a ST prospect. At least Chapman could have rotated in and been an ample replacement for Hendo.
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OakRaiders3828
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 9151
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| Silver&Black88 wrote: | | DOCLEW 28 wrote: | | Silver&Black88 wrote: | | DOCLEW 28 wrote: | When you see guys like Bilukidi being drafted at 6-5, 311 and Dominique Hamilton at 6-5, 315 and Raphael Guidry at 6-4, 290, you have to wonder if we are loading up with 5 technique type guys to run the 3-4. No one really knows how these guys will fare in that defense. Or we could just be loading up on UT's to play the 4-3.
Its really a waiting game to see what we come out in once the season starts. Because we seem to be loading up on linebackers too. |
Pretty much my line of thought which is why I found it so puzzling that we had T'amu and Chapman looking us in the face and we said meh. Even the LB's we picked would fit in a 3-4 |
The only thing I can think of is that we looked at both of their injury histories and slotted them on our board for a certain round. One they were gone it was time to go somewhere else. Bergstrom was a better value at the end of the 3rd round that Ta'amu was with his injury history and production at U-Dub. And ditto for Burris with Chapman's knee at the end of the 4th round.
We had to know that there were other options out there and you can see that in the number of DT's we have stockpiled this weekend. Hopefully it pans out. But you can never really tell how a guy with pre-existing injuries will fare once they start NFL play full time. |
True but still, I read on numerous sites Burris was even a ST prospect. At least Chapman could have rotated in and been an ample replacement for Hendo. |
Where? NFL.com says "he'll be a special teams Guy right away who could contest for a starting spot" and PFW says " he'll be a back up and Special teams guy at WORST. "
Sideline scouting says hell "compete for a starting job depending on which team takes him; regardless, will be a solid special teams guy."
CBS says..
| Quote: | | Burris was recruited by several Pac-12 schools out of high school and originally committed to BYU, but ended up at San Diego State where he was a leader on defense the past three seasons, including as captain in 2011. He had outstanding college production, finishing with 235 total tackles. He is one of the toughest players in the draft with high football intangibles, work ethic and smarts for the next level. He shows a top motor with no quit in him. Burris is a tad limited athletically, which limits his ability to drop in coverage, but he plays with an attacking mentality and always seems around the ball. He is most productive near the line of scrimmage and pro coaches will love his football passion. |
So on top of the intangibles and measurables he also has the production. I don't see how that's "not even a ST guy." Just my opinion broo
His scouting reports are some of the best I've read in terms of the type of player and person we're getting and he has quickly become my favorite pick.
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Baggabonez
Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| TiberiusRising wrote: | | agarcia34 wrote: | | I think It might be a slow transition to a 34 with each draft getting more players that fit it. With this draft we got one of the pass rushing OLB's we need and a possible ILB. Still missing the other one OLB. and possibly a NT. And the 2013 NFL draft is gonna have some major impact players at OLB. |
If we did go with a NT next season I wouldnt mind one of those two guys from Georgia. |
Great assessment!
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Baggabonez
Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| OakRaiders3828 wrote: | | Yeah people seem to think that you need a 400 lb NT to be successful in a 3-4, hence the reason people hate the draft because we didn't grab one, maybe we just don't need one. I think we have some guys, like you said that would be successful in a 1 gap 3-4. Again, Reggie knows what he's doing and what type of personnel that we need for our scheme more than us. |
Imo, I think McKenzie realized he couldn't address every weakness in a draft with so few draft picks. I think he wanted to make sure they did everything possible to put Palmer in the best situation.
Chapman, who was a heavy pre-draft favorite, is hardly 400lbs. Nor, is he ready day 1. I thought Chapman was a smart pick if you took a long-term view. Assuming that a NT has to be north of 350lbs is that exact same flawed argument that assumes TK could play NT. There is nothing in TK's skill set that suggests NT except his size.
Should the Raiders go 34 I look forward to seeing Seymour and TK at DE and I could envision Houston as a smaller NT as run defense seems his forte.
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NCOUGHMAN
Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 12586
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| Baggabonez wrote: | | OakRaiders3828 wrote: | | Yeah people seem to think that you need a 400 lb NT to be successful in a 3-4, hence the reason people hate the draft because we didn't grab one, maybe we just don't need one. I think we have some guys, like you said that would be successful in a 1 gap 3-4. Again, Reggie knows what he's doing and what type of personnel that we need for our scheme more than us. |
Imo, I think McKenzie realized he couldn't address every weakness in a draft with so few draft picks. I think he wanted to make sure they did everything possible to put Palmer in the best situation.
Chapman, who was a heavy pre-draft favorite, is hardly 400lbs. Nor, is he ready day 1. I thought Chapman was a smart pick if you took a long-term view. Assuming that a NT has to be north of 350lbs is that exact same flawed argument that assumes TK could play NT. There is nothing in TK's skill set that suggests NT except his size.
Should the Raiders go 34 I look forward to seeing Seymour and TK at DE and I could envision Houston as a smaller NT as run defense seems his forte. |
been thinking about this for a while. I think he has the discipline to be a nt.
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