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AZBearsFan
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
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 Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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The thing that's misleading about Webb's 14 sacks in 16 games is that half of them came in the week 2 game at NO or against Jared Allen in week 17. Clay Matthews, Trent Cole and Jason Babin all had no sacks against him last year. It's not that he can't block elite rushers - he just hasn't done it consistently. Changing from Martz to Tice alone should lead to some improvement. How much is unknown, but it should be something. If he can be more consistent from week to week on top of that then we'll be getting somewhere. We don't need him to be great... we just can't have him be terrible. If he is an average NFL LT in 2012 then I will be pretty satisfied. Anything more than that should be seen as a bonus and not an expectation IMO.
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VeniceBearsFan
Joined: 15 Feb 2010
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Location: Venice, Florida
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:12 am Post subject: |
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I probably one of webb's biggest haters but I'll say this...he is probably the best 7th round offensive tackle ever
He has tremendous size and strength and all things considered he's done decent enough to recieve one more chance as the LT moving forward. This being his 3rd year he has to show up. Period. This division is one of the hardest in football with elite pass rushers and it's going to take everybody's absolute best to win football games
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| GOGRIESE wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
I have no idea why you stated Josh McCown being a High School coach. He has always been known to have wheels and being pretty mobile. Infact Martz had him at wide out for a little while in Detroit. Pretty silly to be blaming Josh for Webb's mistakes on the outside. |
McCown was out of the NFL when the Bears signed him which is actually the point. I was not knocking him in anyway merely putting things in perspective. Nor was I "blaming" him for anything, only pointing out that you do not become NFL ready in a month.
Webb's problem in the SECOND game vs Allen was a result of many factors: Allen's incredible ability, big changes in the line next to Webb, the loss of Cutler, the loss of Forte and Webb's inexperience at LT. Most of JM's detractors want to put all the blame on him when that is FAR from the actual fact. This is a team game and teamwork is critical. It is very difficult for that teamwork to be effective when the guy next to you changes and the whole line has not worked together for very long added to you being inexperienced to boot.
As I have noted elsewhere I have no opposition to increased competition for Webb. (BTW Thayer believes this will be forthcoming all along the line even as things stand) And I was somewhat surprised/disturbed that they did not draft an OLineman. But I seriously believe he can be another Big Cat Williams. Same kind of raw talent coming out of a small school who is really having to learn the position in the pros. Of course, Big Cat was a DL in college but still... |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7067
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7067
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| VeniceBearsFan wrote: | I probably one of webb's biggest haters but I'll say this...he is probably the best 7th round offensive tackle ever
He has tremendous size and strength and all things considered he's done decent enough to recieve one more chance as the LT moving forward. This being his 3rd year he has to show up. Period. This division is one of the hardest in football with elite pass rushers and it's going to take everybody's absolute best to win football games |
Every NFL game is a brutal dog fight. You have to survive to win and, so far, Webb has shown himself to be a survivor. |
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Madmike90
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 18577
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
So because you are older than me and you see games in person shouldn’t you have a better handle on what an inside counter to an outside rush actually involves for the OT? Because saying the LG has anything to do with it shows that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.
If you want I will explain it. |
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GOGRIESE
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 14641
Location: Use to live in Chicago Now Im in Austin Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
So because you are older than me and you see games in person shouldn’t you have a better handle on what an inside counter to an outside rush actually involves for the OT? Because saying the LG has anything to do with it shows that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.
If you want I will explain it. |
Yeah ChicagoAl your barking up the wrong tree here. MM90 knows more about this sport than most on here. Just because your older doesnt mean you know more than him(you dont). |
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ak06max
Joined: 11 Jun 2008
Posts: 1202
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| GOGRIESE wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
So because you are older than me and you see games in person shouldn’t you have a better handle on what an inside counter to an outside rush actually involves for the OT? Because saying the LG has anything to do with it shows that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.
If you want I will explain it. |
Yeah ChicagoAl your barking up the wrong tree here. MM90 knows more about this sport than most on here. Just because your older doesnt mean you know more than him(you dont). |
Al also liked Rex so this Webb love doesn't surprise me.. |
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Superman(DH23)
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 16419
Location: Abdi on the sick sig
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| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| GOGRIESE wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
So because you are older than me and you see games in person shouldn’t you have a better handle on what an inside counter to an outside rush actually involves for the OT? Because saying the LG has anything to do with it shows that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.
If you want I will explain it. |
Yeah ChicagoAl your barking up the wrong tree here. MM90 knows more about this sport than most on here. Just because your older doesnt mean you know more than him(you dont). |
He may be confusin a stunt w/ an inside counter. Al is not completely wrong however b/c an inside counter can be affected by what the LG is doing. If the LG has forced his man outside, an inside counter will be completely ineffective b/c there is no space to counter to, the end will just run rite into the back of the DT.
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| OneBadCat wrote: | | Ahah Okay first of all Gamble was lost to IR this year but when healthy he proved to be 2nd only to Revis last season. |
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MDbear4ever
Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 222
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: |
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I think some of the problems about Offensive Tackle and Webb in particular is that everyone ( Almost everyone ) talks about how he is going to develop to be a great tackler. Well I hope that is the case, the problem is that the rest of the team is in a win now mode. The defense is not getting any younger and we need someone who as Madmike mentioned about sack stats on Webb that he allowed, to not give up so many sacks. I hope that I am wrong on him and that Webb is better this year but like I said, Bears are on a win mode right now and cant afford a mistake or have a player that will develop in say 3 years from now. We need an immediate, ready starter in LT.
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raq11
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 671
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| MDbear4ever wrote: | | I think some of the problems about Offensive Tackle and Webb in particular is that everyone ( Almost everyone ) talks about how he is going to develop to be a great tackler. Well I hope that is the case, the problem is that the rest of the team is in a win now mode. The defense is not getting any younger and we need someone who as Madmike mentioned about sack stats on Webb that he allowed, to not give up so many sacks. I hope that I am wrong on him and that Webb is better this year but like I said, Bears are on a win mode right now and cant afford a mistake or have a player that will develop in say 3 years from now. We need an immediate, ready starter in LT. |
Reiff wasn't that guy, neither was Martin. Webb's our best shot at win-now mode. I know I've mentioned this before but...the offensive line was gelling before Cutler went down. 5 sacks in 5 games. 30+ points in 4 of those games. More weapons, more audibles, less drop steps. No one was going to come in and be able to perform better than Webb. In 2-3 years, maybe MAYBE Reiff plays better, but I doubt it. |
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IronMike84
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 5918
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| MDbear4ever wrote: | | We need an immediate, ready starter in LT. |
Sounds easy. They grow on trees, right?  |
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Superman(DH23)
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Location: Abdi on the sick sig
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| raq11 wrote: | | MDbear4ever wrote: | | I think some of the problems about Offensive Tackle and Webb in particular is that everyone ( Almost everyone ) talks about how he is going to develop to be a great tackler. Well I hope that is the case, the problem is that the rest of the team is in a win now mode. The defense is not getting any younger and we need someone who as Madmike mentioned about sack stats on Webb that he allowed, to not give up so many sacks. I hope that I am wrong on him and that Webb is better this year but like I said, Bears are on a win mode right now and cant afford a mistake or have a player that will develop in say 3 years from now. We need an immediate, ready starter in LT. |
Reiff wasn't that guy, neither was Martin. Webb's our best shot at win-now mode. I know I've mentioned this before but...the offensive line was gelling before Cutler went down. 5 sacks in 5 games. 30+ points in 4 of those games. More weapons, more audibles, less drop steps. No one was going to come in and be able to perform better than Webb. In 2-3 years, maybe MAYBE Reiff plays better, but I doubt it. |
We've seen highly rated OTs come in and play at a very high level recently, and Reiff was maybe the best prepared OT to enter the NFL since Jake Long, I have no doubts he'll perform immediately, that said I still like a lot of what Webb has to offer just like Tice does, but he HAS to improve very quickly this year.
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| OneBadCat wrote: | | Ahah Okay first of all Gamble was lost to IR this year but when healthy he proved to be 2nd only to Revis last season. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7067
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
So because you are older than me and you see games in person shouldn’t you have a better handle on what an inside counter to an outside rush actually involves for the OT? Because saying the LG has anything to do with it shows that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.
If you want I will explain it. |
You assuming you know exactly how each line play is intended to go is not warranted. Virtually all protection schemes involve the whole line working as a unit. When one element is changed it can affect how all the others look. I do not assume to know how each play is diagrammed to work unless I see the play book. It would be a different matter if I considered you to be infallible in such matters.
These problems either were minimized or prevented when Williams was in there. Did Webb make mistakes with inside and outside blocking on occasion? Sure he did but they were under control but for two games which is the point. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7067
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| GOGRIESE wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
So because you are older than me and you see games in person shouldn’t you have a better handle on what an inside counter to an outside rush actually involves for the OT? Because saying the LG has anything to do with it shows that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.
If you want I will explain it. |
Yeah ChicagoAl your barking up the wrong tree here. MM90 knows more about this sport than most on here. Just because your older doesnt mean you know more than him(you dont). |
First of all I never claimed that he doesn't merely remarked on his assumption of my ignorance. Somethings he knows more about that I other things he does not. Often he assumes certain things which are not warranted. |
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