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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ak06max wrote: | | GOGRIESE wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
So because you are older than me and you see games in person shouldn’t you have a better handle on what an inside counter to an outside rush actually involves for the OT? Because saying the LG has anything to do with it shows that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.
If you want I will explain it. |
Yeah ChicagoAl your barking up the wrong tree here. MM90 knows more about this sport than most on here. Just because your older doesnt mean you know more than him(you dont). |
Al also liked Rex so this Webb love doesn't surprise me.. |
You must be a lawyer.
But I will defend any Bear against what I consider to be unfair attacks. What Rex went through was the most vicious thing I have ever seen in Chicago sport, one would think him a politician. And this was a QB whose play put us in the SB and, but for two incredibly lucky plays, in a good position to win it. He was treated like someone who was worse than Jack Concannon.
Webb has been subject to similar unfair attacks. Not as vicious but unfair nonetheless. |
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bearsaddict
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 3543
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| IronMike84 wrote: | I'll echo what I said in the E-Rod thread: I feel like hating J'Marcus Webb is more about trying to boast about being right than anything else.
Everybody should hope the guy does well, because the success of the passing game may/will depend on it.
But merely saying "HE'S GONNA SUCK, WATCH, YOU'LL ALL SEE" at every opportunity requires zero intelligence, or football knowledge for that matter. And besides that, nobody cares. |
Where should I start? NONE of the posters I have seen on here talking about J'Marcus Webb have ever said a thing about "hating him". I will say for myself that I certainly will be cheering for him to succeed but to act like I'm a dope for not being a lemming, blindly hoping he is a wild success, is laughably foolhardy. What his detractors ARE saying is that we HAVE to have a contingency plan for Webb. He was an absolute disaster many times last year. If you want to stick your head in the sand about that, go for it, but don't expect me to. It has nothing to do about strutting like a peacock thinking you're brilliant, its about discussing issues related to the Bears. Period. And clearly there are many here who do care, so nice try, but no. What the Bears need to do is have an honest, legit competition all the way through training camp with guys like Williams and Carimi getting a shot at LT. If that happens, and Webb wins out legitimately then I can be ok with Webb being crowned our LT. Until then you can darn well bet I will not be pleased about the situation.
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Here's to hoping Emery is NOTHING like Angelo. |
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bearsaddict
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 3543
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| 51to54 wrote: | I'll take Webb over the Packers' Clifton (sp) any time, but the Pack offense was effective even with Clifton because Rogers gets the ball out fast and he could only do that because he had great receivers that read defenses, got open, and won contested balls. Cutler and Webb had NONE of that and had kamikaze Martz's offense to boot.
It got better last season after an on the field Cutler literally told the headset guy to tell him (Martz) to x-off and Cutler essentially started calling the plays. We went on a 5-0 run from 2-3 to 7-3. 39 points, 1 sack. 24 and 2. 30 and zero. 37 and 2. 31 and zero. 161 points and 5 sacks.
If the Bears can average over 32 points a game and 1 sack a game with Webb at OLT, I'll take that in a heartbeat. |
If I've seen a post in support of Webb that has ever made sense this is it. I can understand this POV.
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Here's to hoping Emery is NOTHING like Angelo. |
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IronMike84
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 5973
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| bearsaddict wrote: | | [Webb] was an absolute disaster many times last year. If you want to stick your head in the sand about that, go for it... |
Of course you would [incorrectly] figure I'm satisfied with Webb's performance. 
| bearsaddict wrote: | | It has nothing to do about strutting like a peacock thinking you're brilliant, its about discussing issues related to the Bears. |
No offense, but this quote is such a huge lie that it's hilarious. It's early May; nobody here has the slightest clue of what late July is going to bring. So I'm not going to apologize for laughing at the idea that the "I'm right, you'll see" predictions are mere conversation and are in no way ego-driven.
| bearsaddict wrote: | | What his detractors ARE saying is that we HAVE to have a contingency plan for Webb. ... What the Bears need to do is have an honest, legit competition all the way through training camp with guys like Williams and Carimi getting a shot at LT. If that happens, and Webb wins out legitimately then I can be ok with Webb being crowned our LT. |
I don't disagree, and it's not an impossible scenario. After all, the Bears don't even have a swing tackle on the roster to take the 2nd team reps once camp rolls around. But while you're well aware of Tice's love for Webb, I think your obsession with wanting a top-tier offensive line and the images of Webb's low points from last season that are burned into your mind are blinding you from realizing just how committed Tice truly is to this guy. The Bears could have taken Reiff, they could have traded up for Martin or Glenn, and they could have taken Adams without trading up. They didn't, not because Webb isn't good, but because Tice thinks Webb is the guy. That may not mean much to you, but it obviously means a whole lot to him. |
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IronMike84
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 5973
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| 51to54 wrote: | | Cutler essentially started calling the plays. |
...what? |
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bearsaddict
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 3543
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| IronMike84 wrote: | | bearsaddict wrote: | | [Webb] was an absolute disaster many times last year. If you want to stick your head in the sand about that, go for it... |
Of course you would [incorrectly] figure I'm satisfied with Webb's performance.
| bearsaddict wrote: | | It has nothing to do about strutting like a peacock thinking you're brilliant, its about discussing issues related to the Bears. |
No offense, but this quote is such a huge lie that it's hilarious. It's early May; nobody here has the slightest clue of what late July is going to bring. So I'm not going to apologize for laughing at the idea that the "I'm right, you'll see" predictions are mere conversation and are in no way ego-driven.
| bearsaddict wrote: | | What his detractors ARE saying is that we HAVE to have a contingency plan for Webb. ... What the Bears need to do is have an honest, legit competition all the way through training camp with guys like Williams and Carimi getting a shot at LT. If that happens, and Webb wins out legitimately then I can be ok with Webb being crowned our LT. |
I don't disagree, and it's not an impossible scenario. After all, the Bears don't even have a swing tackle on the roster to take the 2nd team reps once camp rolls around. But while you're well aware of Tice's love for Webb, I think your obsession with wanting a top-tier offensive line and the images of Webb's low points from last season that are burned into your mind are blinding you from realizing just how committed Tice truly is to this guy. The Bears could have taken Reiff, they could have traded up for Martin or Glenn, and they could have taken Adams without trading up. They didn't, not because Webb isn't good, but because Tice thinks Webb is the guy. That may not mean much to you, but it obviously means a whole lot to him. |
1- I don't lie. I refuse to lie. So, you are wrong on that one.
2- I don't even understand where you are going with the last section.
_________________
Here's to hoping Emery is NOTHING like Angelo. |
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IronMike84
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 5973
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| bearsaddict wrote: | | 2- I don't even understand where you are going with the last section. |
Okay, how about "Webb may suck but you're underestimating how much Tice likes him?" Little better?
| bearsaddict wrote: | | 1- I don't lie. I refuse to lie. So, you are wrong on that one. |
I don't even understand where you are going with the last section.  |
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51to54
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 1529
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 12:48 am Post subject: |
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| IronMike84 wrote: | | 51to54 wrote: | | Cutler essentially started calling the plays. |
...what? |
The offense seemed to change it's approach then. Less hanging Cutler out to dry. Cutler more in charge. None of the play calling in prior games where Cutler would just be brutalized in the pocket time and again continuing to do deeper drops.
No numbers to back it up, but I don't seem to be the only poster who thinks that way. Doesn't mean I'm right. Just that I won't be the only guy getting his theory blown out of the water if I'm wrong. |
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AZBearsFan
Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 8946
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| 51to54 wrote: | | IronMike84 wrote: | | 51to54 wrote: | | Cutler essentially started calling the plays. |
...what? |
The offense seemed to change it's approach then. Less hanging Cutler out to dry. Cutler more in charge. None of the play calling in prior games where Cutler would just be brutalized in the pocket time and again continuing to do deeper drops.
No numbers to back it up, but I don't seem to be the only poster who thinks that way. Doesn't mean I'm right. Just that I won't be the only guy getting his theory blown out of the water if I'm wrong. |
It wasn't as much Cutler in control IMO as Martz less in control. Jay still wasn't calling plays or permitted to audible - the play calls just became less absurd.
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| GRRLacher wrote: | | I told you guys AZ was awesome...he in fact makes triple the pay I get for moderating here. |
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Madmike90
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 18607
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
So because you are older than me and you see games in person shouldn’t you have a better handle on what an inside counter to an outside rush actually involves for the OT? Because saying the LG has anything to do with it shows that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.
If you want I will explain it. |
You assuming you know exactly how each line play is intended to go is not warranted. Virtually all protection schemes involve the whole line working as a unit. When one element is changed it can affect how all the others look. I do not assume to know how each play is diagrammed to work unless I see the play book. It would be a different matter if I considered you to be infallible in such matters.
These problems either were minimized or prevented when Williams was in there. Did Webb make mistakes with inside and outside blocking on occasion? Sure he did but they were under control but for two games which is the point. |
Webb’s struggle against an inside counter has nothing to do with the protection that the line is in…it’s simply a problem of him not being able to handle some DE one on one…as Sup said I’m beginning to think you might be confused as to what the difference is between an inside counter pass rushing move and a Dline stunt. |
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Madmike90
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 18607
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | GOGRIESE wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
So because you are older than me and you see games in person shouldn’t you have a better handle on what an inside counter to an outside rush actually involves for the OT? Because saying the LG has anything to do with it shows that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.
If you want I will explain it. |
Yeah ChicagoAl your barking up the wrong tree here. MM90 knows more about this sport than most on here. Just because your older doesnt mean you know more than him(you dont). |
First of all I never claimed that he doesn't merely remarked on his assumption of my ignorance. Somethings he knows more about that I other things he does not. Often he assumes certain things which are not warranted. |
It’s in no way shape or form an assumption…you have stated several times that Chris Williams at LG affected Webb’s ability to handle an inside counter move…which is totally false and shows you don’t know what the responsibility of the OT is against such a move. |
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51to54
Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 1529
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| AZBearsFan wrote: | | 51to54 wrote: | | IronMike84 wrote: | | 51to54 wrote: | | Cutler essentially started calling the plays. |
...what? |
The offense seemed to change it's approach then. Less hanging Cutler out to dry. Cutler more in charge. None of the play calling in prior games where Cutler would just be brutalized in the pocket time and again continuing to do deeper drops.
No numbers to back it up, but I don't seem to be the only poster who thinks that way. Doesn't mean I'm right. Just that I won't be the only guy getting his theory blown out of the water if I'm wrong. |
It wasn't as much Cutler in control IMO as Martz less in control. Jay still wasn't calling plays or permitted to audible - the play calls just became less absurd. |
Certainly. No actual contention that he went old school and called every play "Knox, go deep and cut in at the water cooler", but he seemed to be dictating the play calling and was probably doing 'audibles' in the huddle. Cutler's attitude went one way and Martz's the other. |
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IronMike84
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 5973
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| 51to54 wrote: | | Certainly. No actual contention that he went old school and called every play "Knox, go deep and cut in at the water cooler", but he seemed to be dictating the play calling and was probably doing 'audibles' in the huddle. Cutler's attitude went one way and Martz's the other. |
I don't know about the part about changing plays in the huddle, but yeah, Martz definitely paired down his playbook at some point last season. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7096
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
So because you are older than me and you see games in person shouldn’t you have a better handle on what an inside counter to an outside rush actually involves for the OT? Because saying the LG has anything to do with it shows that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.
If you want I will explain it. |
You assuming you know exactly how each line play is intended to go is not warranted. Virtually all protection schemes involve the whole line working as a unit. When one element is changed it can affect how all the others look. I do not assume to know how each play is diagrammed to work unless I see the play book. It would be a different matter if I considered you to be infallible in such matters.
These problems either were minimized or prevented when Williams was in there. Did Webb make mistakes with inside and outside blocking on occasion? Sure he did but they were under control but for two games which is the point. |
Webb’s struggle against an inside counter has nothing to do with the protection that the line is in…it’s simply a problem of him not being able to handle some DE one on one…as Sup said I’m beginning to think you might be confused as to what the difference is between an inside counter pass rushing move and a Dline stunt. |
You started the discussion of a specific Dline move whereas I was speaking of the general effect on the line which changing a lineman can have. And, since we were not speaking of the same thing, raised the issue of my ignorance. When even Socrates admitted to being ignorant who am I to make a different claim particularly with regard to Rocket Science? |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7096
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | GOGRIESE wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Webb’s biggest issue is he allows “splash” plays…he can go 2 or 3 series of solid play and then he will allow a sack or commit a penalty on a key down that sets the offence back…and those are the plays we all remember…last year he was credited with 13 penalties & 14 sacks allowed…27 negative plays in 16 games is a concern as those are driving killing plays…the hope is with Martz out the door not only will Webb’s play improve due to the fact we won’t have so many plays that involve long QB drops and long developing receiver routes but Tice will focus more on not leaving the tackles on an island anywhere near as much as they were last year…the TEs are going to be key in this new scheme…especially David & Spaeth as they can be inline blocker who can help the OTs in pass pro…the key word is help unlike under Martz where he expected those two TEs to block DEs one on one which was totally unrealistic…Davis also has the speed to get out quickly into a route so Jay can dump the ball off is there is too much pressure…add in a guy like Rodriguez who won’t be an inline blocker but can shift across the formation…chip a rusher and get out into his route for another option…those are the things that can help Webb…
Something interesting that Phil Emery said at one of his draft day presser was that the top LTs in the NFL aren’t really the guys who can handle outside speed…he said there were plenty of athletes who can get that done…what he said was guys who can handle the inside counter of an outside rush are the elite guys…if there is one thing Webb struggles with it’s the inside counter…that why Jared Allen destroyed him…Webb has to work on being able to deal with the inside counter or he won’t last much longer as a starting LT in the league…he has the raw talent and measurable to be a good player…he just has to work hard on getting the best out of those natural tools. |
As the initial poster stated we were 7-3 and Webb was neither having drive killing penalties nor allowing excessive sacks during those ten games because we had adjusted Martz's offense and had a competent QB behind the line. He handled Jared Allen just fine in the first MN game. The last game was a different issue but probably had as much to do with the fact that our QB was leading sophomores in push-ups just weeks before taking the field in MN as his play per se. IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.
I agree that he will have to continue to get better and work hard to do so. I also would not be surprised or upset to see another T added to the mix before the season starts. |
His 14 sacks gave up 87.5 yards…his 4 holding calls gave up 40 yards and his 8 false starts gave up 40 yards…so that 167.5 negative yards on the season that Webb alone gave up…you don’t think that is drive killing?…also on the frankly wrong statement that Webb handled Allen in the first game against Minny Allen had 1 sack…2 TFL and another tackle…3 negative plays is hardly handling him…now I have no problem with Webb having problems with Allen due to the fact that most tackles struggle against him but let’s not pretend it was only against elite guys he had issues…on the subject of you thinking losing Chris Williams inside had anything to do with Webb struggling with the counter move of an outside rush shows you clearly have no idea of what an OT has to do against a counter move. |
It is nice to have someone who can point out what I "clearly" don't know particularly one who probably was not alive when I started attending these games.
But giving up one sack against Allen is no indication he was not being handled and since I saw the game in person I also know that Allen was VERY frustrated at his production. Plus, they were ramming the ball down his throat. As Arz points out most of Webb's problems came in two games and in the others he did a good or at worst average job. |
So because you are older than me and you see games in person shouldn’t you have a better handle on what an inside counter to an outside rush actually involves for the OT? Because saying the LG has anything to do with it shows that you don’t have any idea of what you are talking about.
If you want I will explain it. |
Yeah ChicagoAl your barking up the wrong tree here. MM90 knows more about this sport than most on here. Just because your older doesnt mean you know more than him(you dont). |
First of all I never claimed that he doesn't merely remarked on his assumption of my ignorance. Somethings he knows more about that I other things he does not. Often he assumes certain things which are not warranted. |
It’s in no way shape or form an assumption…you have stated several times that Chris Williams at LG affected Webb’s ability to handle an inside counter move…which is totally false and shows you don’t know what the responsibility of the OT is against such a move. |
Sorry, my friend but I NEVER once mentioned an inside counter move OR any specific Dline move. That all came from you. Perhaps you have me confused with some other ignoramus. |
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