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forty six & 2
Joined: 02 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:16 am Post subject: Re: 2012 Heisman Winner Predictions |
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| buno67 wrote: | | thanks for showing me a "highlight" flim, the sole bases of a highlight film is to show the good parts. Denard is a career 58% completion passer, where Griffen was 64% before his senior year. Griffen his head and shoulder a better passer then Denard. If Denard didnt have his rushing ability his competition would prolly be a lot worse. Denard is one hell of a football player but he is a horrible QB. his best pass is the jump ball |
It's a Heisman discussion, every candidate has highlight reels, it's all ESPN and the like run during that time and discussion. This isn't a debate over how Robinson (or anyone else) projects to the next level, ala where game tape is needed, not highlights. The Heisman is all hype and highlights.
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VikingsFan51
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 2:30 am Post subject: |
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Montee Ball won't win the Heisman. He didn't last year, and I don't think he will have a better season because his QB play won't be good enough to improve his stats.
Frontrunner has to be Barkley, but I think Geno Smith is a definite sleeper.
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ICE13
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 9:42 am Post subject: |
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I can't believe I haven't said this, but Marquess Wilson in Mike Leach's air raid system with a healthy quarterback. That could just be dirty.
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1King
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: 2012 Heisman Winner Predictions |
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| gl81 wrote: | | 1King wrote: | | gl81 wrote: | | 1King wrote: | | gl81 wrote: | | buno67 wrote: | | Tyler2015 wrote: | Mine is...
| Quote: | Denard Robinson//QB-Athlete//Michigan
Info:
Name: Denard Robinson
School: Michigan University
Height: 6'0"
Weight: 195 lbs.
40 Time: 4.32sec
2012 Stat Predictions:
Comp/Att- 196/257
Comp %- 62%
Passing Yards- 2,894
TD's- 31
INT's- 12
Rushing Att- 199
Rushing Yards- 1192
Avg.- 5.5 YPC
TD's- 14 |
Who is your's...? |
id say Denard is a favorite until he faces the big ten conference schedule and he is exposed yet again as an overrated QB when he has to face legit defenses |
This. Why do we go through this every year? |
Buno already proved he was wrong.
We go through it every year because for both years that Denard has started at QB, he has garnered Heisman consideration and deservedly so.
Provided he stays healthy, he will garner consideration again this year.
Not to mention he is helped in the race in several areas (i.e. Major school/conference, Plays QB, nationally known name, exciting player, will have plenty of opportunities to be seen by a national audience and plenty of opportunities to have a "Heisman moment").
As per usual, Haters gonna hate. |
He's a great playmaker just not a Heisman type talent. Virginia Tech game kind of supports that. |
I might listen to you if you ever knew what you were talking about or could ever post about Michigan without being heavily biased.
Denard has already proven to be a Heisman type talent as he has gotten plenty of Heisman consideration/votes already.
VT game supports nothing, and  at you for cherry picking games to try and justify your hate. Bowl games are after the Heisman is awarded anyway.
By your logic, Denard is the greatest QB of all time, the Ohio State game kinds of supports that. |
Spin it how you want to but most of Denard's hype of the last two seasons has came in the first half, and then it subsides considerably when he hits Big Ten play.
Him not playing well against Virginia Tech means nothing? It's actually evidence of another average at best game against a good defense.
I'm not being biased. Denard has looked great at times the past couple years, but far too often he's been made to look too average for me to consider him a serious Heisman candidate and not just a guy who could finish in the top ten. The numbers support that. |
You are the one spinning and being biased.
This thread is about predicting Heisman candidates and who you think could/will win the Heisman.
Denard has already received Heisman hype AND Heisman votes in two different years. Apparently you missed the end of last year when he torched Nebraska and OSU's defense, at the end of the season.
No, the VT game means nothing. It was after Heisman voting last year, so it meant nothing last year. It was last season so it means nothing for next year's Heisman voting, thus means nothing. Using that game LAST YEAR as an example of him struggling vs. a good defense is a terrible, straw man argument. 1. It is anecdotal 2. It is irrelevant (see above) 3. I can highlight games (as I've done) where he plays great vs. good defenses 4. It implies that no player can ever improve (or regress) 5. It implies that teams can't improve (or regress) 6. It implies that teams don't gain (or lose) players/coaches 7. It has no relevance nor will it have any impact on the Heisman voting for next year.
What a surprise, a MSU fan (and you specifically) doesn't want to admit anything positive about a Michigan player or team. Denard already has Heisman hype in two different seasons. FACT. Denard already has Heisman votes in two different seasons. FACT. You are being biased and you can think whatever you want, just know that you are ignoring facts and logic and that you are wrong.
Denard finished #6 in Heisman voting in 2010, despite his struggles and despite him missing game time due to injuries and despite him being a sophomore on a struggling team. He had the 5th most 1st place votes as well.
RGIII wasn't even a top 10 finalist in 2010, but won it.
Trent Richardson wasn't a top 10 finalist in 2010, but finished top 3.
Montee Ball not in the top 10 in 2010, but finished top 4 in 2011.
The numbers and fact supports myself (and every other Michigan and NON-Michigan fan) in this thread that says Denard will be a serious Heisman candidate this year.
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gl81
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Keep spinning. It's what you're good at.
The VT game was after the Heisman voting so it doesn't matter? What? Yes, that game had zero effect on the Heisman voting for 2011, but it once again showcased Denard struggling to do anything against a talented defense. Athletic linebackers and ends are able to contain his running abilities while he struggles to make throws. Thankfully Junior Hemingway saved the day for them that night
You can highlight games where he played well just as I can highlight games he didn't play well. Here's the problem with that: Those things shouldn't be equal for a serious Heisman contender. Michigan plays Alabama next year in game 1. If he has anything less than a very good game, his Heisman candidacy loses a little steam. They then play Notre Dame a couple weeks later, a team that Denard sort of struggled against last season. The pressure will be on early, before he hits the part of the schedule that he hasn't been completely great against the last two seasons.
Yes, most of these arguments aren't taking into account different personnel changes across college football, but what else do we have to go on other than last year? Some freshman and new starters pan out, some don't. An inexact science to say the least.
Most of these people also probably didn't watch nearly every snap Denard took last season. Almost all of my friends are Michigan fans, so they're always my second most watched team.
At the end of the day Denard is an effective college QB, I just don't think he's effective enough throwing the football to win a Heisman trophy. 15 INT's in 13 games means nothing 1King?
For as much as you say I'm biased against Michigan, I've never actually heard you critique your team or admit to any weaknesses. This dates back to the RichRod era.
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1King
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| gl81 wrote: | Keep spinning. It's what you're good at.
The VT game was after the Heisman voting so it doesn't matter? What? Yes, that game had zero effect on the Heisman voting for 2011, but it once again showcased Denard struggling to do anything against a talented defense. Athletic linebackers and ends are able to contain his running abilities while he struggles to make throws. Thankfully Junior Hemingway saved the day for them that night
You can highlight games where he played well just as I can highlight games he didn't play well. Here's the problem with that: Those things shouldn't be equal for a serious Heisman contender. Michigan plays Alabama next year in game 1. If he has anything less than a very good game, his Heisman candidacy loses a little steam. They then play Notre Dame a couple weeks later, a team that Denard sort of struggled against last season. The pressure will be on early, before he hits the part of the schedule that he hasn't been completely great against the last two seasons.
Yes, most of these arguments aren't taking into account different personnel changes across college football, but what else do we have to go on other than last year? Some freshman and new starters pan out, some don't. An inexact science to say the least.
Most of these people also probably didn't watch nearly every snap Denard took last season. Almost all of my friends are Michigan fans, so they're always my second most watched team.
At the end of the day Denard is an effective college QB, I just don't think he's effective enough throwing the football to win a Heisman trophy. 15 INT's in 13 games means nothing 1King?
For as much as you say I'm biased against Michigan, I've never actually heard you critique your team or admit to any weaknesses. This dates back to the RichRod era. |
Not sure you know what "spinning" is. I deal with relevant information and proper context, that is not spinning.
VT game has no impact on last years Heisman or this years, so in the CONTEXT of this thread and discussion, it is irrelevant.
Of course the Alabama game is going to be a big game, no one has said otherwise.
Bringing up ND as a game to discount Denard? This is how you know you are biased and/or don't know what you are talking about.
Denard Robinson as a starting QB vs. ND:
2010: WIN; 244 yards passing, 1 TD; 258 yards rushing, 2 TD. 0 INT. Over 500+ total yards, 3 total TD's, Heisman moments, no turnovers, and a Win.
2011: WIN; 338 yards passing, 4 TD; 108 yards rushing, 1 TD. He did have 3 INT's though. 400+ total yards, 5 total TD, Heisman moments, and a WIN vastly out rank the interceptions, especially as it relates to the Heisman.
2 years vs. ND:
2-0
582 passing yards
366 rushing yards
8 Total TD (5 passing; 3 rushing)
Heisman moments galore
Of course those numbers mean something, IF (and that is a BIG IF) he repeats them THIS upcoming year. But they also don't mean as much as you imply either:
Eric Crouch Heisman WINNING stats:
12 games (all starts):
55.6% 1,510 yards 7 TD 10 INT
1,115 rushing yards 18 TD
Poor passing % and/or poor TD/INT ratio does not eliminate someone from Heisman consideration when there are other factors/production involved.
Then you haven't been paying attention, just because I don't overreact to everything or provide context to certain things doesn't mean I'm not critical.
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buno67
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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u cant use last years ND game as judging point... Denard got lucky that ND didnt have any real DBs. I dont know how many jump balls he threw up to his WRs and his WRs were easily able to just kill the DBs. If ND had somewhat decent DBs he would of had at least 1 more INT and 1 less TD
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gl81
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
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Location: SE Michigan
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| 1King wrote: | | gl81 wrote: | Keep spinning. It's what you're good at.
The VT game was after the Heisman voting so it doesn't matter? What? Yes, that game had zero effect on the Heisman voting for 2011, but it once again showcased Denard struggling to do anything against a talented defense. Athletic linebackers and ends are able to contain his running abilities while he struggles to make throws. Thankfully Junior Hemingway saved the day for them that night
You can highlight games where he played well just as I can highlight games he didn't play well. Here's the problem with that: Those things shouldn't be equal for a serious Heisman contender. Michigan plays Alabama next year in game 1. If he has anything less than a very good game, his Heisman candidacy loses a little steam. They then play Notre Dame a couple weeks later, a team that Denard sort of struggled against last season. The pressure will be on early, before he hits the part of the schedule that he hasn't been completely great against the last two seasons.
Yes, most of these arguments aren't taking into account different personnel changes across college football, but what else do we have to go on other than last year? Some freshman and new starters pan out, some don't. An inexact science to say the least.
Most of these people also probably didn't watch nearly every snap Denard took last season. Almost all of my friends are Michigan fans, so they're always my second most watched team.
At the end of the day Denard is an effective college QB, I just don't think he's effective enough throwing the football to win a Heisman trophy. 15 INT's in 13 games means nothing 1King?
For as much as you say I'm biased against Michigan, I've never actually heard you critique your team or admit to any weaknesses. This dates back to the RichRod era. |
Not sure you know what "spinning" is. I deal with relevant information and proper context, that is not spinning.
VT game has no impact on last years Heisman or this years, so in the CONTEXT of this thread and discussion, it is irrelevant.
Of course the Alabama game is going to be a big game, no one has said otherwise.
Bringing up ND as a game to discount Denard? This is how you know you are biased and/or don't know what you are talking about.
Denard Robinson as a starting QB vs. ND:
2010: WIN; 244 yards passing, 1 TD; 258 yards rushing, 2 TD. 0 INT. Over 500+ total yards, 3 total TD's, Heisman moments, no turnovers, and a Win.
2011: WIN; 338 yards passing, 4 TD; 108 yards rushing, 1 TD. He did have 3 INT's though. 400+ total yards, 5 total TD, Heisman moments, and a WIN vastly out rank the interceptions, especially as it relates to the Heisman.
2 years vs. ND:
2-0
582 passing yards
366 rushing yards
8 Total TD (5 passing; 3 rushing)
Heisman moments galore
Of course those numbers mean something, IF (and that is a BIG IF) he repeats them THIS upcoming year. But they also don't mean as much as you imply either:
Eric Crouch Heisman WINNING stats:
12 games (all starts):
55.6% 1,510 yards 7 TD 10 INT
1,115 rushing yards 18 TD
Poor passing % and/or poor TD/INT ratio does not eliminate someone from Heisman consideration when there are other factors/production involved.
Then you haven't been paying attention, just because I don't overreact to everything or provide context to certain things doesn't mean I'm not critical. |
I do know what spinning is, and you often use it to prove a point. I move on...
Like I said before, yes the Sugar Bowl had no effect on last year's or this year's Heisman race. However, one would not be wrong to look at it(like I am) and think hmm, maybe Denard will continue to have average performances against talented defenses. Had he absolutely dominated in that game, one could look at that as some type of reasoning for him being a potential Heisman candidate for this year, no? Saying you shouldn't look at last year's performances to judge this year's Heisman candidates doesn't make any sense. Why is any good player deemed a potential Heisman candidate going into the following season? Because of past performances, that's what you have to go on. Otherwise I could sit here and say Andrew Maxwell is a Heisman candidate and contend that you can't dispute it because last year has no effect on this year.
Denard was great against ND in 2010, yes I remember. But he was bailed out by his WR's more than a few times during that comeback in 2011. He played well at times, made some big throws, but a couple of those big completions were jumpballs. He also looked very bad at times, as the offense struggled to move the ball for 3/4 of the game. I'm not using this game to discount Denard as a player, just trying to look at his Heisman chances.
Good point about Eric Crouch, didn't realize his throwing numbers were that bad. However, that was over 10 years ago and every Heisman winning QB since him has also been a very good passer. I guess Crouch shows that could happen though.
If he's able to keeps his Heisman hopes alive through Alabama and Notre Dame, the good news for Denard is that the schedule actually gets easier. Get MSU at home, and the only other "tough" games as we sit here in the pre-season are @Nebraska and @Ohio State. Luckily you guys miss Wisconsin again.
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1King
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| buno67 wrote: | | u cant use last years ND game as judging point... Denard got lucky that ND didnt have any real DBs. I dont know how many jump balls he threw up to his WRs and his WRs were easily able to just kill the DBs. If ND had somewhat decent DBs he would of had at least 1 more INT and 1 less TD |
Yup, something doesn't agree with your POV, just throw it out.
A team has a physical and talent edge at the WR position vs. the other team's DB position and decides to exploit it by throwing jump balls to the bigger, more athletic WR's. Sounds like smart football to me.
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1King
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| gl81 wrote: | | 1King wrote: | | gl81 wrote: | Keep spinning. It's what you're good at.
The VT game was after the Heisman voting so it doesn't matter? What? Yes, that game had zero effect on the Heisman voting for 2011, but it once again showcased Denard struggling to do anything against a talented defense. Athletic linebackers and ends are able to contain his running abilities while he struggles to make throws. Thankfully Junior Hemingway saved the day for them that night
You can highlight games where he played well just as I can highlight games he didn't play well. Here's the problem with that: Those things shouldn't be equal for a serious Heisman contender. Michigan plays Alabama next year in game 1. If he has anything less than a very good game, his Heisman candidacy loses a little steam. They then play Notre Dame a couple weeks later, a team that Denard sort of struggled against last season. The pressure will be on early, before he hits the part of the schedule that he hasn't been completely great against the last two seasons.
Yes, most of these arguments aren't taking into account different personnel changes across college football, but what else do we have to go on other than last year? Some freshman and new starters pan out, some don't. An inexact science to say the least.
Most of these people also probably didn't watch nearly every snap Denard took last season. Almost all of my friends are Michigan fans, so they're always my second most watched team.
At the end of the day Denard is an effective college QB, I just don't think he's effective enough throwing the football to win a Heisman trophy. 15 INT's in 13 games means nothing 1King?
For as much as you say I'm biased against Michigan, I've never actually heard you critique your team or admit to any weaknesses. This dates back to the RichRod era. |
Not sure you know what "spinning" is. I deal with relevant information and proper context, that is not spinning.
VT game has no impact on last years Heisman or this years, so in the CONTEXT of this thread and discussion, it is irrelevant.
Of course the Alabama game is going to be a big game, no one has said otherwise.
Bringing up ND as a game to discount Denard? This is how you know you are biased and/or don't know what you are talking about.
Denard Robinson as a starting QB vs. ND:
2010: WIN; 244 yards passing, 1 TD; 258 yards rushing, 2 TD. 0 INT. Over 500+ total yards, 3 total TD's, Heisman moments, no turnovers, and a Win.
2011: WIN; 338 yards passing, 4 TD; 108 yards rushing, 1 TD. He did have 3 INT's though. 400+ total yards, 5 total TD, Heisman moments, and a WIN vastly out rank the interceptions, especially as it relates to the Heisman.
2 years vs. ND:
2-0
582 passing yards
366 rushing yards
8 Total TD (5 passing; 3 rushing)
Heisman moments galore
Of course those numbers mean something, IF (and that is a BIG IF) he repeats them THIS upcoming year. But they also don't mean as much as you imply either:
Eric Crouch Heisman WINNING stats:
12 games (all starts):
55.6% 1,510 yards 7 TD 10 INT
1,115 rushing yards 18 TD
Poor passing % and/or poor TD/INT ratio does not eliminate someone from Heisman consideration when there are other factors/production involved.
Then you haven't been paying attention, just because I don't overreact to everything or provide context to certain things doesn't mean I'm not critical. |
I do know what spinning is, and you often use it to prove a point. I move on...
Like I said before, yes the Sugar Bowl had no effect on last year's or this year's Heisman race. However, one would not be wrong to look at it(like I am) and think hmm, maybe Denard will continue to have average performances against talented defenses. Had he absolutely dominated in that game, one could look at that as some type of reasoning for him being a potential Heisman candidate for this year, no? Saying you shouldn't look at last year's performances to judge this year's Heisman candidates doesn't make any sense. Why is any good player deemed a potential Heisman candidate going into the following season? Because of past performances, that's what you have to go on. Otherwise I could sit here and say Andrew Maxwell is a Heisman candidate and contend that you can't dispute it because last year has no effect on this year.
Denard was great against ND in 2010, yes I remember. But he was bailed out by his WR's more than a few times during that comeback in 2011. He played well at times, made some big throws, but a couple of those big completions were jumpballs. He also looked very bad at times, as the offense struggled to move the ball for 3/4 of the game. I'm not using this game to discount Denard as a player, just trying to look at his Heisman chances.
Good point about Eric Crouch, didn't realize his throwing numbers were that bad. However, that was over 10 years ago and every Heisman winning QB since him has also been a very good passer. I guess Crouch shows that could happen though.
If he's able to keeps his Heisman hopes alive through Alabama and Notre Dame, the good news for Denard is that the schedule actually gets easier. Get MSU at home, and the only other "tough" games as we sit here in the pre-season are @Nebraska and @Ohio State. Luckily you guys miss Wisconsin again. |
Prior cumulative performance matters to a certain extent, an isolated game does not. If you said he struggled to end the season because he closed out the last 4 or 5 games struggling, it would hold merit, he didn't, he had a single bad game to close out the year.
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thrILL!
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| buno67 wrote: | | u cant use last years ND game as judging point... Denard got lucky that ND didnt have any real DBs. I dont know how many jump balls he threw up to his WRs and his WRs were easily able to just kill the DBs. If ND had somewhat decent DBs he would of had at least 1 more INT and 1 less TD |
Now THIS is spinning.
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bkobow05
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| VikingsFan51 wrote: | | Montee Ball won't win the Heisman. He didn't last year, and I don't think he will have a better season because his QB play won't be good enough to improve his stats. |
He won't win it but his name alone will get him to NYC if he has a good season. He should also be the Doak Walker front-runner after last season. IMO, he should have won it over Trent but they rewarded Trent for being on a better team.
I like Geno Smith as my dark horse Heisman winner. Completely forgot about him until talking to my buddies last night.
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IrishGreen
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly, it will be Barkley pretty easily. The combo of being a 4 year starter, being at USC, and putting up good stats will put him over the top. I think he could have just an above average year and still win it easily.
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buno67
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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Location: Chubs for Chud
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| IrishGreen wrote: | | Honestly, it will be Barkley pretty easily. The combo of being a 4 year starter, being at USC, and putting up good stats will put him over the top. I think he could have just an above average year and still win it easily. |
idk, i dont see an avg year winning it for him. he is going to need a great season to win it. He has so much hype that he needs to live up to it. He has just as much hype going into the season as a returning heisman winner gets
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RealMetalFan
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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You spin me right round baby right round like a record baby right round round round!
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