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Madmike90
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
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 Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Well no you weren’t talking about a “general effect” when you stated this…
| ChicagoAl wrote: | | IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush. |
That is a very specific comment on Webb’s inability to handle an inside rush…the inside rush is a specific move by a Dlinemen…
My original point was that Emery said the elite OTs in the NFL are the guys who can handle the inside counter…Webb struggles in that area of his game…if you want to comment on something else then go ahead but that was the original point and if you have an understanding of what an inside counter move is I don’t see how you could disagree with the fact Webb has to make massive strides in that area of his game this offseason. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Madmike90 wrote: | Well no you weren’t talking about a “general effect” when you stated this…
| ChicagoAl wrote: | | IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush. |
That is a very specific comment on Webb’s inability to handle an inside rush…the inside rush is a specific move by a Dlinemen…
My original point was that Emery said the elite OTs in the NFL are the guys who can handle the inside counter…Webb struggles in that area of his game…if you want to comment on something else then go ahead but that was the original point and if you have an understanding of what an inside counter move is I don’t see how you could disagree with the fact Webb has to make massive strides in that area of his game this offseason. |
An inside rush can come from several players not just the end so I was not specifically referring to him and an inside rush can come from different moves by the end. As to handling the inside counter Webb did a decent job in general about as well as a new LT could be expected to. Allen totally schooled him the last game but he handled him in the other game and held his own against most of the other ends. The numbers you referenced 1 sack and 3 hurries is not that bad for his first time against perhaps the premier DE in the league.
No one has said he will not have to keep improving or that he should not have competition. Apparently the coaches have even more confidence in him than I do. |
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Madmike90
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 18574
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Well no you weren’t talking about a “general effect” when you stated this…
| ChicagoAl wrote: | | IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush. |
That is a very specific comment on Webb’s inability to handle an inside rush…the inside rush is a specific move by a Dlinemen…
My original point was that Emery said the elite OTs in the NFL are the guys who can handle the inside counter…Webb struggles in that area of his game…if you want to comment on something else then go ahead but that was the original point and if you have an understanding of what an inside counter move is I don’t see how you could disagree with the fact Webb has to make massive strides in that area of his game this offseason. |
An inside rush can come from several players not just the end so I was not specifically referring to him and an inside rush can come from different moves by the end. As to handling the inside counter Webb did a decent job in general about as well as a new LT could be expected to. Allen totally schooled him the last game but he handled him in the other game and held his own against most of the other ends. The numbers you referenced 1 sack and 3 hurries is not that bad for his first time against perhaps the premier DE in the league.
No one has said he will not have to keep improving or that he should not have competition. Apparently the coaches have even more confidence in him than I do. |
No one said an inside rush couldn’t come from any of the Dlinemen…you said you didn’t mention a single specific Dline move…which as I provided you did…
No Webb didn’t do a decent job handling the inside counter…
And I didn’t say it was 1 sack & 3 hurries…the numbers I referenced were 1 sack…2 TFL…& 1 additional tackle…I didn’t state how many hurries Allen had in that game. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7064
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Well no you weren’t talking about a “general effect” when you stated this…
| ChicagoAl wrote: | | IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush. |
That is a very specific comment on Webb’s inability to handle an inside rush…the inside rush is a specific move by a Dlinemen…
My original point was that Emery said the elite OTs in the NFL are the guys who can handle the inside counter…Webb struggles in that area of his game…if you want to comment on something else then go ahead but that was the original point and if you have an understanding of what an inside counter move is I don’t see how you could disagree with the fact Webb has to make massive strides in that area of his game this offseason. |
An inside rush can come from several players not just the end so I was not specifically referring to him and an inside rush can come from different moves by the end. As to handling the inside counter Webb did a decent job in general about as well as a new LT could be expected to. Allen totally schooled him the last game but he handled him in the other game and held his own against most of the other ends. The numbers you referenced 1 sack and 3 hurries is not that bad for his first time against perhaps the premier DE in the league.
No one has said he will not have to keep improving or that he should not have competition. Apparently the coaches have even more confidence in him than I do. |
No one said an inside rush couldn’t come from any of the Dlinemen…you said you didn’t mention a single specific Dline move…which as I provided you did…
No Webb didn’t do a decent job handling the inside counter…
And I didn’t say it was 1 sack & 3 hurries…the numbers I referenced were 1 sack…2 TFL…& 1 additional tackle…I didn’t state how many hurries Allen had in that game. |
I remarked on something you said and you assumed I was ignorant of what you meant. It was a rude comment at best. Allen was not doing too much hurrying in the first game since they were running the ball down his throat and royally P. him off. A beautiful sight to see. |
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Madmike90
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 18574
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Well no you weren’t talking about a “general effect” when you stated this…
| ChicagoAl wrote: | | IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush. |
That is a very specific comment on Webb’s inability to handle an inside rush…the inside rush is a specific move by a Dlinemen…
My original point was that Emery said the elite OTs in the NFL are the guys who can handle the inside counter…Webb struggles in that area of his game…if you want to comment on something else then go ahead but that was the original point and if you have an understanding of what an inside counter move is I don’t see how you could disagree with the fact Webb has to make massive strides in that area of his game this offseason. |
An inside rush can come from several players not just the end so I was not specifically referring to him and an inside rush can come from different moves by the end. As to handling the inside counter Webb did a decent job in general about as well as a new LT could be expected to. Allen totally schooled him the last game but he handled him in the other game and held his own against most of the other ends. The numbers you referenced 1 sack and 3 hurries is not that bad for his first time against perhaps the premier DE in the league.
No one has said he will not have to keep improving or that he should not have competition. Apparently the coaches have even more confidence in him than I do. |
No one said an inside rush couldn’t come from any of the Dlinemen…you said you didn’t mention a single specific Dline move…which as I provided you did…
No Webb didn’t do a decent job handling the inside counter…
And I didn’t say it was 1 sack & 3 hurries…the numbers I referenced were 1 sack…2 TFL…& 1 additional tackle…I didn’t state how many hurries Allen had in that game. |
I remarked on something you said and you assumed I was ignorant of what you meant. It was a rude comment at best. Allen was not doing too much hurrying in the first game since they were running the ball down his throat and royally P. him off. A beautiful sight to see. |
It was a truthful comment based on what you said. |
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WindyCity
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 6831
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Webb's issues are very simply to diagnose.
He has they most inconsistent technique I have seen from an NFL OLmen in my time watching the game.
A guy like Omiyale had such consistently terrible technique [kick slide, hand punch, angles etc.] That you knew he could not do anything else but try and play basketball defense.
Webb on the other hand has games [Eagles] where he has excellent technique and angles and he takes care of Trent Cole he also has games where his technique is terrible and he is getting killed.
Webb thoughts
-Webb will be better without Martz, who put him in bad situations against elite DEs.
-Webb will be better with Jay Cutler playing, Hanie was a statue who paniced and held the ball.
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Thanks to chisox |
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Madmike90
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 18574
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| WindyCity wrote: | Webb's issues are very simply to diagnose.
He has they most inconsistent technique I have seen from an NFL OLmen in my time watching the game.
A guy like Omiyale had such consistently terrible technique [kick slide, hand punch, angles etc.] That you knew he could not do anything else but try and play basketball defense.
Webb on the other hand has games [Eagles] where he has excellent technique and angles and he takes care of Trent Cole he also has games where his technique is terrible and he is getting killed.
Webb thoughts
-Webb will be better without Martz, who put him in bad situations against elite DEs.
-Webb will be better with Jay Cutler playing, Hanie was a statue who paniced and held the ball. |
I think it’s a little more than a technique issue…he needs to prepare better for games mentally…
I think the other thing is that his inconsistency isn’t a game to game issue…it’s a snap to snap one…he doesn’t have good games and bad games he has good and bad series…it must be frustrating for Jay to know that out of 20 snaps he might be totally fine for 19 of them but there will be that 1 where the DE or OLB will be all over him in seconds…
I agree 100% that Webb will be better this year without Martz here and now that Jay is back and has guys he can throw it up to on the outside…
It’s frustrating to know he has every physical tool a quality OT could want but just hasn’t been able to put it together…hopefully with the changes made on offence and a year under his belt at LT he can make the changes to become the LT we need. |
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bearsaddict
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 3543
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:29 am Post subject: |
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The good news for all of us is that Webb will in FACT be better this year than last year. The reason that I say that is because, bare minimum, even if he plays poorly, he won't be put in the stupid situations that Martz consistenly put him in time and time again like last year.
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Here's to hoping Emery is NOTHING like Angelo. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7064
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Well no you weren’t talking about a “general effect” when you stated this…
| ChicagoAl wrote: | | IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush. |
That is a very specific comment on Webb’s inability to handle an inside rush…the inside rush is a specific move by a Dlinemen…
My original point was that Emery said the elite OTs in the NFL are the guys who can handle the inside counter…Webb struggles in that area of his game…if you want to comment on something else then go ahead but that was the original point and if you have an understanding of what an inside counter move is I don’t see how you could disagree with the fact Webb has to make massive strides in that area of his game this offseason. |
An inside rush can come from several players not just the end so I was not specifically referring to him and an inside rush can come from different moves by the end. As to handling the inside counter Webb did a decent job in general about as well as a new LT could be expected to. Allen totally schooled him the last game but he handled him in the other game and held his own against most of the other ends. The numbers you referenced 1 sack and 3 hurries is not that bad for his first time against perhaps the premier DE in the league.
No one has said he will not have to keep improving or that he should not have competition. Apparently the coaches have even more confidence in him than I do. |
No one said an inside rush couldn’t come from any of the Dlinemen…you said you didn’t mention a single specific Dline move…which as I provided you did…
No Webb didn’t do a decent job handling the inside counter…
And I didn’t say it was 1 sack & 3 hurries…the numbers I referenced were 1 sack…2 TFL…& 1 additional tackle…I didn’t state how many hurries Allen had in that game. |
I remarked on something you said and you assumed I was ignorant of what you meant. It was a rude comment at best. Allen was not doing too much hurrying in the first game since they were running the ball down his throat and royally P. him off. A beautiful sight to see. |
It was a truthful comment based on what you said. |
I said nothing about any kind of rush inside outside upsidedown or backwards. All that came from you. Why you became rude and insulting is nothing I care to diagnose. It was uncalled for and based on NOTHING I said. You just jumped to a conclusion and refuse to admit that is the case. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7064
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| bearsaddict wrote: | | The good news for all of us is that Webb will in FACT be better this year than last year. The reason that I say that is because, bare minimum, even if he plays poorly, he won't be put in the stupid situations that Martz consistenly put him in time and time again like last year. |
Exactly. It seems to escape most other people that Martz consistently got the hell beat out of QBs even with a HoF LT. |
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Madmike90
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 18574
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Well no you weren’t talking about a “general effect” when you stated this…
| ChicagoAl wrote: | | IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush. |
That is a very specific comment on Webb’s inability to handle an inside rush…the inside rush is a specific move by a Dlinemen…
My original point was that Emery said the elite OTs in the NFL are the guys who can handle the inside counter…Webb struggles in that area of his game…if you want to comment on something else then go ahead but that was the original point and if you have an understanding of what an inside counter move is I don’t see how you could disagree with the fact Webb has to make massive strides in that area of his game this offseason. |
An inside rush can come from several players not just the end so I was not specifically referring to him and an inside rush can come from different moves by the end. As to handling the inside counter Webb did a decent job in general about as well as a new LT could be expected to. Allen totally schooled him the last game but he handled him in the other game and held his own against most of the other ends. The numbers you referenced 1 sack and 3 hurries is not that bad for his first time against perhaps the premier DE in the league.
No one has said he will not have to keep improving or that he should not have competition. Apparently the coaches have even more confidence in him than I do. |
No one said an inside rush couldn’t come from any of the Dlinemen…you said you didn’t mention a single specific Dline move…which as I provided you did…
No Webb didn’t do a decent job handling the inside counter…
And I didn’t say it was 1 sack & 3 hurries…the numbers I referenced were 1 sack…2 TFL…& 1 additional tackle…I didn’t state how many hurries Allen had in that game. |
I remarked on something you said and you assumed I was ignorant of what you meant. It was a rude comment at best. Allen was not doing too much hurrying in the first game since they were running the ball down his throat and royally P. him off. A beautiful sight to see. |
It was a truthful comment based on what you said. |
I said nothing about any kind of rush inside outside upsidedown or backwards. All that came from you. Why you became rude and insulting is nothing I care to diagnose. It was uncalled for and based on NOTHING I said. You just jumped to a conclusion and refuse to admit that is the case. |
Go back and read what you wrote…
I posted something that was said by Phil Emery about the elite OTs in the NFL being the guys that can handle an inside counter rush…I said Webb struggles in that area of his game…you then quoted me and said “IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.” I then pointed out that an OTs ability to handle an inside counter has nothing to do with the OG on his inside…you then went on about how you were going to games before I was born and I pointed out that you being older than me has very little bearing on your understanding on an inside counter move and how an OT deals with it…you then went on to talk about protection schemes that yet against have nothing to do with the OTs ability to handle an inside counter…then you tried to say you were talking in general terms and never mentioned a specific Dline move and I point out that you weren’t by showing you were you were talking about an inside rush…then you said I was being rude for telling you that an inside counter had nothing to do with the OG…which I don’t consider rude I consider factual…now again your saying you weren’t talking about a specific move even tho again I showed you earlier where you did…and you are again saying I’m being rude and insulting…which again I don’t feel I am…I am simply pointing out that you don’t seem to know what an OT is supposed to do when a DE makes an inside counter move…which was my original point in the first place…which you quoted me on. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7064
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Well no you weren’t talking about a “general effect” when you stated this…
| ChicagoAl wrote: | | IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush. |
That is a very specific comment on Webb’s inability to handle an inside rush…the inside rush is a specific move by a Dlinemen…
My original point was that Emery said the elite OTs in the NFL are the guys who can handle the inside counter…Webb struggles in that area of his game…if you want to comment on something else then go ahead but that was the original point and if you have an understanding of what an inside counter move is I don’t see how you could disagree with the fact Webb has to make massive strides in that area of his game this offseason. |
An inside rush can come from several players not just the end so I was not specifically referring to him and an inside rush can come from different moves by the end. As to handling the inside counter Webb did a decent job in general about as well as a new LT could be expected to. Allen totally schooled him the last game but he handled him in the other game and held his own against most of the other ends. The numbers you referenced 1 sack and 3 hurries is not that bad for his first time against perhaps the premier DE in the league.
No one has said he will not have to keep improving or that he should not have competition. Apparently the coaches have even more confidence in him than I do. |
No one said an inside rush couldn’t come from any of the Dlinemen…you said you didn’t mention a single specific Dline move…which as I provided you did…
No Webb didn’t do a decent job handling the inside counter…
And I didn’t say it was 1 sack & 3 hurries…the numbers I referenced were 1 sack…2 TFL…& 1 additional tackle…I didn’t state how many hurries Allen had in that game. |
I remarked on something you said and you assumed I was ignorant of what you meant. It was a rude comment at best. Allen was not doing too much hurrying in the first game since they were running the ball down his throat and royally P. him off. A beautiful sight to see. |
It was a truthful comment based on what you said. |
I said nothing about any kind of rush inside outside upsidedown or backwards. All that came from you. Why you became rude and insulting is nothing I care to diagnose. It was uncalled for and based on NOTHING I said. You just jumped to a conclusion and refuse to admit that is the case. |
Go back and read what you wrote…
I posted something that was said by Phil Emery about the elite OTs in the NFL being the guys that can handle an inside counter rush…I said Webb struggles in that area of his game…you then quoted me and said “IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.” [i.e. I was not speaking of an inside counter move but more generally] I then pointed out that an OTs ability to handle an inside counter has nothing to do with the OG on his inside…you then went on about how you were going to games before I was born and I pointed out that you being older than me has very little bearing on your understanding on an inside counter move and how an OT deals with it…you then went on to talk about protection schemes that yet against have nothing to do with the OTs ability to handle an inside counter…then you tried to say you were talking in general terms and never mentioned a specific Dline move and I point out that you weren’t by showing you were you were talking about an inside rush…then you said I was being rude for telling you that an inside counter had nothing to do with the OG…which I don’t consider rude I consider factual… no I never said you were rude for pointing out anything but you were rude in calling me "ignorant" as to what the move was now again your saying you weren’t talking about a specific move even tho again I showed you earlier where you did…and you are again saying I’m being rude and insulting…which again I don’t feel I am…I am simply pointing out that you don’t seem to know what an OT is supposed to do when a DE makes an inside counter move…which was my original point in the first place…which you quoted me on. |
The fact of the matter is that Webb did NOT get consistently beat by inside counter moves. He could not handle Allen that last game but that was not the only inside move Allen used nor the only move Webb was beaten on. Blocking schemes are also not always the same depending upon the splits the line takes as well as the overall familiarity of the linemen with the playbook and the way the DL plays a particular play. There is no doubt that changing the player next to you can affect any and every line play. And the actual result is that Webb did not play as well after CW went down. Emery's comments about "elite" tackles was not that relevant to the Webb discussion since no one has claimed he is yet in that status so there are several areas which he would have to improve upon in order to be considered elite. |
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Madmike90
Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 18574
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Well no you weren’t talking about a “general effect” when you stated this…
| ChicagoAl wrote: | | IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush. |
That is a very specific comment on Webb’s inability to handle an inside rush…the inside rush is a specific move by a Dlinemen…
My original point was that Emery said the elite OTs in the NFL are the guys who can handle the inside counter…Webb struggles in that area of his game…if you want to comment on something else then go ahead but that was the original point and if you have an understanding of what an inside counter move is I don’t see how you could disagree with the fact Webb has to make massive strides in that area of his game this offseason. |
An inside rush can come from several players not just the end so I was not specifically referring to him and an inside rush can come from different moves by the end. As to handling the inside counter Webb did a decent job in general about as well as a new LT could be expected to. Allen totally schooled him the last game but he handled him in the other game and held his own against most of the other ends. The numbers you referenced 1 sack and 3 hurries is not that bad for his first time against perhaps the premier DE in the league.
No one has said he will not have to keep improving or that he should not have competition. Apparently the coaches have even more confidence in him than I do. |
No one said an inside rush couldn’t come from any of the Dlinemen…you said you didn’t mention a single specific Dline move…which as I provided you did…
No Webb didn’t do a decent job handling the inside counter…
And I didn’t say it was 1 sack & 3 hurries…the numbers I referenced were 1 sack…2 TFL…& 1 additional tackle…I didn’t state how many hurries Allen had in that game. |
I remarked on something you said and you assumed I was ignorant of what you meant. It was a rude comment at best. Allen was not doing too much hurrying in the first game since they were running the ball down his throat and royally P. him off. A beautiful sight to see. |
It was a truthful comment based on what you said. |
I said nothing about any kind of rush inside outside upsidedown or backwards. All that came from you. Why you became rude and insulting is nothing I care to diagnose. It was uncalled for and based on NOTHING I said. You just jumped to a conclusion and refuse to admit that is the case. |
Go back and read what you wrote…
I posted something that was said by Phil Emery about the elite OTs in the NFL being the guys that can handle an inside counter rush…I said Webb struggles in that area of his game…you then quoted me and said “IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.” [i.e. I was not speaking of an inside counter move but more generally] I then pointed out that an OTs ability to handle an inside counter has nothing to do with the OG on his inside…you then went on about how you were going to games before I was born and I pointed out that you being older than me has very little bearing on your understanding on an inside counter move and how an OT deals with it…you then went on to talk about protection schemes that yet against have nothing to do with the OTs ability to handle an inside counter…then you tried to say you were talking in general terms and never mentioned a specific Dline move and I point out that you weren’t by showing you were you were talking about an inside rush…then you said I was being rude for telling you that an inside counter had nothing to do with the OG…which I don’t consider rude I consider factual… no I never said you were rude for pointing out anything but you were rude in calling me "ignorant" as to what the move was now again your saying you weren’t talking about a specific move even tho again I showed you earlier where you did…and you are again saying I’m being rude and insulting…which again I don’t feel I am…I am simply pointing out that you don’t seem to know what an OT is supposed to do when a DE makes an inside counter move…which was my original point in the first place…which you quoted me on. |
The fact of the matter is that Webb did NOT get consistently beat by inside counter moves. He could not handle Allen that last game but that was not the only inside move Allen used nor the only move Webb was beaten on. Blocking schemes are also not always the same depending upon the splits the line takes as well as the overall familiarity of the linemen with the playbook and the way the DL plays a particular play. There is no doubt that changing the player next to you can affect any and every line play. And the actual result is that Webb did not play as well after CW went down. Emery's comments about "elite" tackles was not that relevant to the Webb discussion since no one has claimed he is yet in that status so there are several areas which he would have to improve upon in order to be considered elite. |
Let’s get to the two remarks in red first…
I was talking about the same specific move that Emery was…so if you weren’t talking about that why bother to quote me in the first place…
And I’m sorry but you showed a clear lack of understanding as to what an inside counter move involves…if I starting talking about quantum physical and someone told me I didn’t have a handle on what I was talking about I wouldn’t taking it as an insult…I would take it as I had to get a better understanding of what I was talking about…I offered to explain what an inside counter move was and you went off on some other tangent instead of trying to learn more about a subject you don’t seem to have much of an understanding off…the same as I don’t have much of an understanding of many things to do with football but if I don’t know something I go and research it or ask someone…I don’t take it to heart and moan about it because someone tells me I’m not right…
As for Webb not being beating a lot with inside counter moves you are clearly off base with that comment or again don’t really understand what an inside counter move is…he was able to hold his own and at points dominate guys like JJP & Trent Cole last season…guys who are classic outside speed rushers…but we have seen him beating but far less talented and athletic guys because of counter moves…and again blocking schemes…the splits of the lines…who’s playing inside the OT has no bearing on how an OT handles an inside counter move…it’s a one on one block which is why the elite guys get paid so much to protect a QBs blindside…
I’m done talking about this because I can’t be bother going into yet another set of tangents about how your older than me or how you go to the games or how the splits in the line affect a one on one block or whatever else you’re going to come up with to get away from the fact that Webb has an issue with a move that can cause our offence a ton of problems…hopefully he can correct that problem this offseason because we have to keep Jay upright this season to get anywhere…if you still believe that Webb doesn’t struggle with the inside counter move then I would respectfully suggest you go and do a little research on what exactly the move is and how it effects Webb & other OTs. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7064
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | Well no you weren’t talking about a “general effect” when you stated this…
| ChicagoAl wrote: | | IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush. |
That is a very specific comment on Webb’s inability to handle an inside rush…the inside rush is a specific move by a Dlinemen…
My original point was that Emery said the elite OTs in the NFL are the guys who can handle the inside counter…Webb struggles in that area of his game…if you want to comment on something else then go ahead but that was the original point and if you have an understanding of what an inside counter move is I don’t see how you could disagree with the fact Webb has to make massive strides in that area of his game this offseason. |
An inside rush can come from several players not just the end so I was not specifically referring to him and an inside rush can come from different moves by the end. As to handling the inside counter Webb did a decent job in general about as well as a new LT could be expected to. Allen totally schooled him the last game but he handled him in the other game and held his own against most of the other ends. The numbers you referenced 1 sack and 3 hurries is not that bad for his first time against perhaps the premier DE in the league.
No one has said he will not have to keep improving or that he should not have competition. Apparently the coaches have even more confidence in him than I do. |
No one said an inside rush couldn’t come from any of the Dlinemen…you said you didn’t mention a single specific Dline move…which as I provided you did…
No Webb didn’t do a decent job handling the inside counter…
And I didn’t say it was 1 sack & 3 hurries…the numbers I referenced were 1 sack…2 TFL…& 1 additional tackle…I didn’t state how many hurries Allen had in that game. |
I remarked on something you said and you assumed I was ignorant of what you meant. It was a rude comment at best. Allen was not doing too much hurrying in the first game since they were running the ball down his throat and royally P. him off. A beautiful sight to see. |
It was a truthful comment based on what you said. |
I said nothing about any kind of rush inside outside upsidedown or backwards. All that came from you. Why you became rude and insulting is nothing I care to diagnose. It was uncalled for and based on NOTHING I said. You just jumped to a conclusion and refuse to admit that is the case. |
Go back and read what you wrote…
I posted something that was said by Phil Emery about the elite OTs in the NFL being the guys that can handle an inside counter rush…I said Webb struggles in that area of his game…you then quoted me and said “IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush.” [i.e. I was not speaking of an inside counter move but more generally] I then pointed out that an OTs ability to handle an inside counter has nothing to do with the OG on his inside…you then went on about how you were going to games before I was born and I pointed out that you being older than me has very little bearing on your understanding on an inside counter move and how an OT deals with it…you then went on to talk about protection schemes that yet against have nothing to do with the OTs ability to handle an inside counter…then you tried to say you were talking in general terms and never mentioned a specific Dline move and I point out that you weren’t by showing you were you were talking about an inside rush…then you said I was being rude for telling you that an inside counter had nothing to do with the OG…which I don’t consider rude I consider factual… no I never said you were rude for pointing out anything but you were rude in calling me "ignorant" as to what the move was now again your saying you weren’t talking about a specific move even tho again I showed you earlier where you did…and you are again saying I’m being rude and insulting…which again I don’t feel I am…I am simply pointing out that you don’t seem to know what an OT is supposed to do when a DE makes an inside counter move…which was my original point in the first place…which you quoted me on. |
The fact of the matter is that Webb did NOT get consistently beat by inside counter moves. He could not handle Allen that last game but that was not the only inside move Allen used nor the only move Webb was beaten on. Blocking schemes are also not always the same depending upon the splits the line takes as well as the overall familiarity of the linemen with the playbook and the way the DL plays a particular play. There is no doubt that changing the player next to you can affect any and every line play. And the actual result is that Webb did not play as well after CW went down. Emery's comments about "elite" tackles was not that relevant to the Webb discussion since no one has claimed he is yet in that status so there are several areas which he would have to improve upon in order to be considered elite. |
Let’s get to the two remarks in red first…
I was talking about the same specific move that Emery was…so if you weren’t talking about that why bother to quote me in the first place… I mentioned an "inside rush" not an inside counter move so obviously we were speaking of different things.
And I’m sorry but you showed a clear lack of understanding as to what an inside counter move involves…if I starting talking about quantum physical and someone told me I didn’t have a handle on what I was talking about I wouldn’t taking it as an insult…I would take it as I had to get a better understanding of what I was talking about…I offered to explain what an inside counter move was and you went off on some other tangent instead of trying to learn more about a subject you don’t seem to have much of an understanding off…the same as I don’t have much of an understanding of many things to do with football but if I don’t know something I go and research it or ask someone…I don’t take it to heart and moan about it because someone tells me I’m not right… There was nothing for me to be "right" about since you brought up a specific issue which I was not arguing about. I had been and always was speaking of Webb's play in general.
As for Webb not being beating a lot with inside counter moves you are clearly off base with that comment or again don’t really understand what an inside counter move is…he was able to hold his own and at points dominate guys like JJP & Trent Cole last season…guys who are classic outside speed rushers…but we have seen him beating but far less talented and athletic guys because of counter moves…and again blocking schemes…the splits of the lines…who’s playing inside the OT has no bearing on how an OT handles an inside counter move…it’s a one on one block which is why the elite guys get paid so much to protect a QBs blindside… Every block can become something other than a one on one block no matter how it is designed or occurring. It is the ability of the elite linemen to adapt on the run to situations which are developing in a specific play which makes them elite. The DE can play many different variations on his initial move including spins, twists, slants. If the tackle can't stay with those moves he gets beat by the good ones.
I’m done talking about this because I can’t be bother going into yet another set of tangents about how your older than me or how you go to the games or how the splits in the line affect a one on one block or whatever else you’re going to come up with to get away from the fact that Webb has an issue with a move that can cause our offence a ton of problems…hopefully he can correct that problem this offseason because we have to keep Jay upright this season to get anywhere…if you still believe that Webb doesn’t struggle with the inside counter move then I would respectfully suggest you go and do a little research on what exactly the move is and how it effects Webb & other OTs. |
Webb gave up half his sacks in two games. If he was having an inordinate amount of trouble with inside counter plays you would have seen him being fed a steady diet of them but he wasn't. He gave up 7 sacks in 14 games. The difference is that in his most horrible game he was facing the premier pass rusher in the league who made life hell for even the most experienced tackles. Webb is the least of my worries about the Bears as he is for the organization apparently. |
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A_Fan
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 720
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | I was talking about the same specific move that Emery was…so if you weren’t talking about that why bother to quote me in the first place… I mentioned an "inside rush" not an inside counter move so obviously we were speaking of different things. |
Al, I don't think you're understanding the issue here.
Madmike90 does this.
| Madmike90 wrote: | | [Some analysis about an inside counter] |
Then you do this.
| ChicagoAl wrote: | | Madmike90 wrote: | | [Some analysis about an inside counter] |
IF your analysis is correct the absence of C Williams at guard likely had a lot to do with any inability to handle an inside rush. |
If you were truly talking about something different, why did you quote it, make it appear that you were talking about it, and then change the last part of your statement so that you were actually talking about something different?
Some places consider that type of thing "baiting" because it sparks pages and pages of argument over nothing, which is what seems to have happened here. |
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