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"Big Nickel" Article

 
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Ward4HOF


Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject: "Big Nickel" Article Reply with quote

So Pat Kirwan wrote an article about using a defensive "Big Nickel" package (basically an extra big-bodied safety in place of a LB) to combat these two TE sets on offonse that seemed to be successful for NE last year. Expect that more offenses will employ this as well. Kirwan suggested, while not necessarily a new concept, that teams would start employing this type of D more often. He mentioned the Steelers as being only a handful of teams currently "manned" to handle such a D, but he used Troy, Clark, and Mundy. I'm wondering if they had this in mind when selecting Spence this year. Probably not, I guess, but he would be perfect for that hybrid LB/S role, other than his relative short height. Yes, he ran a bit slow at the combine, but he sure looked faster than that on the field, more like a 4.55-4.6 range guy, and I'd bet he'd run about that at 225 if given the opportunity again.

Anyway, running what looks to be a 3-3.5-4.5 type of D maybe seen quite a bit this year for us. And when you think about it, we have the personal to throw some serious "beef" in the front 3 if they chose to put McLendon (who is 6'1 3/8" and 310ish, NOT 6' 4" and 280 like Steelers dot com has listed--really wish they'd fix that!!) along with Ta'amu and Keisel or Hood. Then you leave Timmons, Harrison, and Woodley at LB, with Spence the tweener/joker, and Troy, Clark, Allen/Lewis and Ike. That's a pretty formidable D line up there, IMO!!

Anyway, the article is linked below (think it's allowed as it's not a forum or blog).

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/19103779/got-a-big-nickel-youll-need-one-to-combat-hybrid-offenses-this-fall

And if you are interested, NFLDraftScout McLendon ProDay weigh in:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=79325&draftyear=2009&genpos=DT
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stillersenat


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll probably see the nickle used as a base defense more than ever because of the passing rules. Despite NE's 2 TE sets, the 3WR is more the trend. Unless you have a ferocious pass rush you'll need to have the nickle out there to constantly defend the 3WR 1TE 1RB groups running routes everywhere. It just makes sense.

If you step back from this you'll notice a pendulum effect. Right now things have moved towards the offense passing. Teams will continue the trend and defenses will eventually adapt. Then some team will walk out with a mammoth OL and a power back or two. Suddenly everybody will think running the ball is revolutionary.

Happens all the time.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I absolutely think that's why they selected Spence.

it's why "Ive calmed down quite a bit on the pick.
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Ward4HOF


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
I absolutely think that's why they selected Spence.

it's why "Ive calmed down quite a bit on the pick.


Unfortunately, it still doesn't fill the vacancy left by Farrior. I don't think I'm alone in thinking we need an upgrade to Foote or Sly there...
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward4HOF wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
I absolutely think that's why they selected Spence.

it's why "Ive calmed down quite a bit on the pick.


Unfortunately, it still doesn't fill the vacancy left by Farrior. I don't think I'm alone in thinking we need an upgrade to Foote or Sly there...


you get no arguments from me. However, I'm not entirely sure that Spence won't end up filling the void eventually. Farrior didn't produce because he was a beast, he produced because he was smart and instinctive, just like Spence.

I'm still concerned, but the more I think about it, the more the pick makes sense to me (i.e. I'm talking myself into it)

one of the biggest problems I'm having with the pick is that Spence is a physical 180 from Hightower, which I know a lot of us had penciled in at 1.24, until DeCastro fell.

next year is an outstanding year for ILB and Safety, as well as NT. We addressed NT this year with good value, so perhaps we are able to nab a Skov or a Riddick along with a pass rusher and a Bacarri Rambo type. *shrugs*
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SMashMouthMike


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So Pat Kirwan wrote an article about using a defensive "Big Nickel" package (basically an extra big-bodied safety in place of a LB) to combat these two TE sets on offonse that seemed to be successful for NE last year. Expect that more offenses will employ this as well. Kirwan suggested, while not necessarily a new concept, that teams would start employing this type of D more often. He mentioned the Steelers as being only a handful of teams currently "manned" to handle such a D, but he used Troy, Clark, and Mundy. I'm wondering if they had this in mind when selecting Spence this year.


I was pretty sure we were going to see Spence in this role as another SS in a big nickel. Now, I kinda doubt we use him as such. The Giants used the big Nickel effectively against teams with those athletic TEs in the playoffs when facing San Fran, Green Bay and then NE. One thing the Giants were able to do is to confuse the opposing QB by disguising their coverages. They would show a cover two with the Strong and Free safety playing 20 yards deep. At the snap both of these safeties would sprint towards the box and play in that LB 10 yard range. The middle LB then sprinted to where the 20 yard deep zone area. So, they showed cover 2 and played cover 3.
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at23steelers


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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could Spence take over Mundy's role as the 3rd safety in the sub packages??
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32houchen32


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward4HOF wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
I absolutely think that's why they selected Spence.

it's why "Ive calmed down quite a bit on the pick.


Unfortunately, it still doesn't fill the vacancy left by Farrior. I don't think I'm alone in thinking we need an upgrade to Foote or Sly there...


i havnt giving up on sly yet. how long did it take timmons to get to play a full season? sly isnt timmons, but i see the similar time to get use to the system. i will admit that sly needs to step up his game this year and hopfully with a full offseason he does. if all else fails spence could be the man for the job. if your going to be a backup ILB for a 3-4 D mite as well learn both mack and buck
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Ward4HOF


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

32houchen32 wrote:
Ward4HOF wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
I absolutely think that's why they selected Spence.

it's why "Ive calmed down quite a bit on the pick.


Unfortunately, it still doesn't fill the vacancy left by Farrior. I don't think I'm alone in thinking we need an upgrade to Foote or Sly there...


I havn't given up on Sly yet. how long did it take timmons to get to play a full season? sly isnt timmons, but i see the similar time to get use to the system. i will admit that sly needs to step up his game this year and hopfully with a full offseason he does. if all else fails spence could be the man for the job. if your going to be a backup ILB for a 3-4 D mite as well learn both mack and buck


I guess we shouldn't write off Sly as of yet. I mean, Mitchell seems to think McLendon is going to be a force this year, so the coaches may see something in Sly that leads them to believe he can handle the Buck spot, so maybe he can. I love the athleticism and the fire that Sly brings on every play, he just needs to rein it in sometimes. He also needs to work on run support, as well.

It's also possible that Spence does switch roles after a couple of seasons. He may be the ideal replacement for Farrior if his demonstrated football IQ translates well enough to the NFL game and our scheme. Maybe they are putting Spence to backup Timmons because Sly has demonstrated he'd be better at the Buck than Mack. Who knows?

I still think we target an ILB early next year (1st 3 Rds), as well as FS, unless they decide to slide Soence over to starting Buck next year, then we probably pick one up for depth later in the draft. As of right now, I really want Teo. And if not him, one of the two 'Bama LBs, Johnson or Mosely. I haven't watched Skov at all yet, but will make a point to this season f at all possible.
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32houchen32


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ward4HOF wrote:
32houchen32 wrote:
Ward4HOF wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
I absolutely think that's why they selected Spence.

it's why "Ive calmed down quite a bit on the pick.


Unfortunately, it still doesn't fill the vacancy left by Farrior. I don't think I'm alone in thinking we need an upgrade to Foote or Sly there...


I havn't given up on Sly yet. how long did it take timmons to get to play a full season? sly isnt timmons, but i see the similar time to get use to the system. i will admit that sly needs to step up his game this year and hopfully with a full offseason he does. if all else fails spence could be the man for the job. if your going to be a backup ILB for a 3-4 D mite as well learn both mack and buck


I guess we shouldn't write off Sly as of yet. I mean, Mitchell seems to think McLendon is going to be a force this year, so the coaches may see something in Sly that leads them to believe he can handle the Buck spot, so maybe he can. I love the athleticism and the fire that Sly brings on every play, he just needs to rein it in sometimes. He also needs to work on run support, as well.

It's also possible that Spence does switch roles after a couple of seasons. He may be the ideal replacement for Farrior if his demonstrated football IQ translates well enough to the NFL game and our scheme. Maybe they are putting Spence to backup Timmons because Sly has demonstrated he'd be better at the Buck than Mack. Who knows?

I still think we target an ILB early next year (1st 3 Rds), as well as FS, unless they decide to slide Soence over to starting Buck next year, then we probably pick one up for depth later in the draft. As of right now, I really want Teo. And if not him, one of the two 'Bama LBs, Johnson or Mosely. I haven't watched Skov at all yet, but will make a point to this season f at all possible.


i 100% agree with you on the bold. as for next years draft i havnt looked to much into it. Safety is number one right now, then ILB, but at the end of the season i just hope safety is the only concern we have.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i would love for safety to be our only concern, but that'll require Worilds to step up bigtime
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32houchen32


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
i would love for safety to be our only concern, but that'll require Worilds to step up bigtime


i thought worilds has done well when he steps in. he isnt special by any means but he is still a young pup. we will have to judge it at the end of the season. but as of now safety is my only concern, besides colon being on the line Laughing
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

32houchen32 wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
i would love for safety to be our only concern, but that'll require Worilds to step up bigtime


i thought worilds has done well when he steps in. he isnt special by any means but he is still a young pup. we will have to judge it at the end of the season. but as of now safety is my only concern, besides colon being on the line Laughing


I'm less concerned about Colon at OG than I am about Pouncey at C. That snakebit injury thing is like Mario and Sid...so much potential....if only he could stay healthy
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32houchen32


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
32houchen32 wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
i would love for safety to be our only concern, but that'll require Worilds to step up bigtime


i thought worilds has done well when he steps in. he isnt special by any means but he is still a young pup. we will have to judge it at the end of the season. but as of now safety is my only concern, besides colon being on the line Laughing


I'm less concerned about Colon at OG than I am about Pouncey at C. That snakebit injury thing is like Mario and Sid...so much potential....if only he could stay healthy


that is true but colon is going through the same thing. i look at thomas davis, linebacker from the panthers, colon and davis have the same injury davis torn it a total of three times. colon two. and since the first tear they both havnt seen the field without reinjurying it. all i see in colon is alot of rust that isnt going to come off until a full season of play. pouncey with a high ankle sprain does linger. but im more worried about a achilles tear then a sprain judging on players missing a season then a couple of games.
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AntiSuperstar


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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest Pat Kirwan comes across very badly in this article. Big Nickle defenses are already used regularly by several teams in the NFL including against two Tight End sets. Did Kirwan watch the Giants last year at all? At one point he even says in the article that big nickel won't be a base set for any team. Big nickel was the base defense of last year's Giants. Including in the Superbowl. Also many other teams, Buffalo and Oakland stand out most, used three safety sets regularly. So uhhh, yeah, ignorance etc. Kirwan is way behind the curve here, teams are already doing what he's describing.

His examples of team's who are suited for utilizing big nickle sets are all bad as well, aside from Cincinnati.
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