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PurpleMugen
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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Location: Rutgers University
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 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| disaacs wrote: | | Just on a visual level (not statistics-wise) Christian Ponder, as a rookie, was a better QB than Tarvaris Jackson ever was. |
He absolutely was, and that is saying very little.
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milanb
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 5165
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| disaacs wrote: | Tarvaris was the true example of where numbers lie, proving that there are indeed lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Just on a visual level (not statistics-wise) Christian Ponder, as a rookie, was a better QB than Tarvaris Jackson ever was. |
I don't know how anyone could watch Ponder in the Detroit and New Orleans game in consecutive weeks last year and still say that with a straight face.
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The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. — Ecclesiastes 9:11
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HighHopes
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 25259
Location: Courtroom
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| milanb wrote: | | disaacs wrote: | Tarvaris was the true example of where numbers lie, proving that there are indeed lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Just on a visual level (not statistics-wise) Christian Ponder, as a rookie, was a better QB than Tarvaris Jackson ever was. |
I don't know how anyone could watch Ponder in the Detroit and New Orleans game in consecutive weeks last year and still say that with a straight face. |
Pick Ponders best two games and say the opposite? I dont get it lol. Arent you supposed to take the best and worst score out and look at the rest not take the 2 worst?
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ArcticNorseman
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 1429
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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T-Jack improving statistically?  . . . I'm dyin' here . 
Oh wait . . . What are the real numbers -- and who the hell was the Vikes QB in 2009 when T-Jack posted that amazing 113.4?
Year Games Attempts Completions Pct Yards TD Int QBR
2011 15 450 271 60.2 3,091 14 13 79.2
2010 3 58 34 58.6 341 3 4 63.9
2009 8 21 14 66.7 201 1 0 113.4
2008 9 149 88 59.1 1,056 9 2 95.4
2007 12 294 171 58.2 1,911 9 12 70.8
2006 4 81 47 58.0 475 2 4 62.5
Was T-Jack respectable in Seattle last year? Yep. So, what? He may be a better physical talent than Ponder, maybe not.
He's not the leader Ponder is - and his teammates don't go on the air an make sarcastic, disparaging remarks to the media about him.
When one's teammates go on the air and say "Can't understand the words coming outta his mouth" (ala McKinney about T-Jack) or "the guy's got a lot to learn" (ala Panthers on Clausen), or whatever was said about Ryan Leaf or Jeff George's attitudes --- that's when you know your QB doesn't have the team's trust. That's when a guy is destined to fail as a leader -- not a physical talent. The physical talent will land a follow-on gig . . . but that opportunity will fizzle and failure will once again set in.
When Winfield speaks highly of Ponder, we should listen to him. When Jared Allen or Adrian Peterson or Kevin Williams speak highly of what they're seeing in Ponder . . . listen -- read. What they're talking about is believing in Ponder, his leadership, intelligence, charisma . . . the total package.
Yeah, I want Ponder to prove it too. |
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milanb
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 5165
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| HighHopes wrote: | | milanb wrote: | | disaacs wrote: | Tarvaris was the true example of where numbers lie, proving that there are indeed lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Just on a visual level (not statistics-wise) Christian Ponder, as a rookie, was a better QB than Tarvaris Jackson ever was. |
I don't know how anyone could watch Ponder in the Detroit and New Orleans game in consecutive weeks last year and still say that with a straight face. |
Pick Ponders best two games and say the opposite? I dont get it lol. Arent you supposed to take the best and worst score out and look at the rest not take the 2 worst? |
OK. What were Ponder's two best games last year?
The Carolina game and... well, feel free to choose because I can't think of another particularly good game that he had.
It's not like Ponder had eight good games and two bad ones. In fact it's not like that at all.
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The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. — Ecclesiastes 9:11
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wcblack34
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 3970
Location: Anywhere but Wisconsin.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Ugh. These arguments are getting tired and stale. I can't wait for the season to start so people either get proved right or wrong, or at least there will be more than 8 games in a year with no offseason to base career-long predictions on. |
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vikingsrule
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| wcblack34 wrote: | | Ugh. These arguments are getting tired and stale. I can't wait for the season to start so people either get proved right or wrong, or at least there will be more than 8 games in a year with no offseason to base career-long predictions on. |
I prefer to take the neutral approach and assume/discuss all outcomes. I really dont have any expectations for him to fail or succeed, and id be just as happy drafting a new QB in 2013 (assuming top 5 pick again) as I would him succeeding.
What I dont want to see are injuries and excuses to his play in the form of there being lackluster talent around him. I hope to take from this season enough evidence documenting progression, or lack thereof, to make a more sound decision if he is the future or needs to be replaced. |
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PurpleMugen
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 3590
Location: Rutgers University
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| vikingsrule wrote: | | wcblack34 wrote: | | Ugh. These arguments are getting tired and stale. I can't wait for the season to start so people either get proved right or wrong, or at least there will be more than 8 games in a year with no offseason to base career-long predictions on. |
I prefer to take the neutral approach and assume/discuss all outcomes. I really dont have any expectations for him to fail or succeed, and id be just as happy drafting a new QB in 2013 (assuming top 5 pick again) as I would him succeeding.
What I dont want to see are injuries and excuses to his play in the form of there being lackluster talent around him. I hope to take from this season enough evidence documenting progression, or lack thereof, to make a more sound decision if he is the future or needs to be replaced. |
Great approach. Otherwise, all discussion on the topic is virtually killed off. The whole 'I'm annoyed that some posters are predicting Ponder's career path' shtick is what is actually tired and counterintuitive given that this is a major purpose of this very thread and, by extension, this forum.
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SteelKing728
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 10849
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| milanb wrote: | | disaacs wrote: | Tarvaris was the true example of where numbers lie, proving that there are indeed lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Just on a visual level (not statistics-wise) Christian Ponder, as a rookie, was a better QB than Tarvaris Jackson ever was. |
I don't know how anyone could watch Ponder in the Detroit and New Orleans game in consecutive weeks last year and still say that with a straight face. |
oh, so great QBs never had bad games when they were rookies then?
If we judged every QB after their rookie year and decided if they can play or not, this league would completely fall apart.
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The Gnat
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 34112
Location: Minneapolis
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| SteelKing728 wrote: | | milanb wrote: | | disaacs wrote: | Tarvaris was the true example of where numbers lie, proving that there are indeed lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Just on a visual level (not statistics-wise) Christian Ponder, as a rookie, was a better QB than Tarvaris Jackson ever was. |
I don't know how anyone could watch Ponder in the Detroit and New Orleans game in consecutive weeks last year and still say that with a straight face. |
oh, so great QBs never had bad games when they were rookies then?
If we judged every QB after their rookie year and decided if they can play or not, this league would completely fall apart. |
Peyton Manning would have never gotten a chance that's for sure.
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milanb
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 5165
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| SteelKing728 wrote: |
oh, so great QBs never had bad games when they were rookies then?
If we judged every QB after their rookie year and decided if they can play or not, this league would completely fall apart. |
The claim that I was responding to was that we should ignore the stats because visually Christian Ponder was better as a rookie than Tarvaris Jackson ever was as a veteran.
I pointed out the Detroit and New Orleans games because they were back-to-back games where Ponder (a) totally came unglued and (b) looked every bit as bad as Jackson ever did.
I keep reading on this forum and in the media how Chrisitian Ponder is The Un-Tarvaris, but when I watched Ponder last year I saw way more similarities than differences:
- They're very similar in terms of size, speed and athleticism. They're both play action QBs who are a lot better on bootlegs and broken plays than they are throwing out of the pocket.
- They're both OK in the three-step drops but struggle to throw the ball down the field, albeit for different reasons.
- They both struggle in terms of progressing through their reads and finding the second or third receiver.
- They both have a propensity for losing their composure in game situations.
- They both have serious durability issues.
There's no question that Ponder is more polished than Jackson was in his first full season but one would expect that. Ponder is a second-generation QB who got the very best coaching from early childhood, then played in a pro-style offence at FSU under a very great coach. The flip side of that is that his footwork is not that bad and he already has a very solid knowledge of the game. You wonder where the improvement is going to come from. At least with Jackson he had that huge arm, he was making the jump from I-AA, and he was given the starter's job before his footwork was there, so at least there was room for growth.
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The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. — Ecclesiastes 9:11
But that’s the way to bet. — Jimmy The Greek
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ArcticNorseman
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 1429
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Milan . . . you bring up some very good points; however, the only thing similarity-wise between Ponder and Jackson is size-speed. Jackson's arm is better. Ponder's mind is better.
Jackson played behind an established offensive line with 3 pro-bowlers and two good TEs and a couple fairly good running backs. Yes, his WRs were not good -- especially after Childress cut Marcus Robinson.
Pocket Passing? Jackson had pockets, Ponder ran for his life.
As this current Vikes roster grows through training camp and pre-season, we can all make better assessments of what the team will play like. Until then, we make projections  I won't go as far as one read that had Jared getting 25 Sacks and Adrian gaining 2018 yards -- although Jared might just do it if the Vikes O can sustain leads this year.
Heck -- Let's have fun: Ponder's going to shatter Dan Marino's sophmore passing records! |
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SteelKing728
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 10849
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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"so at least there was room for growth".
So there is no more room for growth for Ponder? He's maxed out?
there we are again, judging a QB wayy too early.
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wcblack34
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 3970
Location: Anywhere but Wisconsin.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| SteelKing728 wrote: | "so at least there was room for growth".
So there is no more room for growth for Ponder? He's maxed out?
there we are again, judging a QB wayy too early. |
No. He's done, it's all over. Sign up Matt Barkley now. |
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KWilliams93
Joined: 05 Aug 2011
Posts: 6
Location: New Haven, CT
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| This year is definitley gonna tell whether or not Christian Ponder is an NFL QB. The team has done everything possible this offseason to surround Ponder with the tools he needs to be successful. We got a franchise LT to watch Ponders back and more pass catching weapons with Carlson, Simpson, Wright and Childs. Despite Petersons injury I have faith that Gerhart can carry the ground game. If Ponder doesnt show improvement this year then it may be time to look at other QB options. |
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