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Speed_Wrench

Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Posts: 3986
Location: Bay area

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:46 pm Post subject:

Mr.Al Davis wrote:

i cant believe we are still having this argument..if anyone SERIOUSLY thinks that JASON CAMPBELL is BETTER THAN, or on the SAME LEVEL as Carson Palmer, I judge your football knowledge..

i liked campbell, but the guy cant make half the throws that palmer makes..and cant make 80% of the 30+ yard throws that palmer can.

The reason he can't is because he wont attempt any of those throws until it's too late and that IMO is just as bad as forcing it into triple coverage, Palmer tries to put the ball where the reciever has the best chance at a completion despite how close to coverage the throw may be. The TD completion to Reese is a perfect example of the type of throws you get from Carson, JC never attempts a throw like that.
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NCOUGHMAN

Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 12568
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 3:47 pm Post subject:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

oakdb36 wrote:

RaisinBran wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

oakdb36 wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

-imo with bush's production jc would have led us to the playoffs

I think it's time for you to go break down Bush's production in the 2nd half of last season.

In Palmer's starts:

82 YPG
3.7 YPA
4 TDs

jc in his career has 4.9 YPA which would help in the run game

Not really... He only scrambles (for positive yardage) on average like once a game maybe twice. lol

Indeed. That was a really weak point ncough. Step your game up.

weak?
in 2011 in 6 games he had 7 rushing first downs which was the 3rd best on the team for the year
2010 he was also tied for third on the team in rushing first downs

sometimes and extra first down or two can be the difference between a W or a L imo

Thats all cool, but who else would really have challenged him for 3rd on the team? Campbell ran the ball more than any RB on our team aside from DMC and Bush did both years combined. In 2010, JC had 48 carries, Reece had 30, the next RB had 9. Same story last year when Reece only had 17 Jones had 16. With guys like DMC and Bush toting the rock, nobody else is going to get enough carries to matter. Our FBs and #3 RBs are not going to get chances to get first downs because they rarely, if ever, touch the ball. Its not saying much that Campbell picked up more first downs than Reece, Taiwan Jones, and Rock Cartwright did.

imo some of cps ints or 3 and outs come because he is under pressure and cant or chooses not to scramble. jc can turn a broken play into a first down and not throw a int with his legs and keep the defense off the field a lil bit longer. imo thats what made gannon so great sure he could pass but he was also a threat to run. cp on the other hand wont scramble and will take the 3 and out or throw the int. for example in the gb game his first int he broke away from clay matt (pretty impressive by the way) but instead of running it (had a good 10 yard cushion all around him) he hesitated and threw into triple coverage.

Manning, Brady and countless others are not fleet footed you have a problem with all pocket passers or just Palmer?

Also, Campbell running is what landed him out for the season. There is risk to scrambling.

But why not touch on how Campbell couldn't hit a wide open WR deep. Missed 90% of the time. No deep ball accuracy what so ever. Instead of TDs, he settled for 3 and out because he flats missed throws on vertical routes.

Also, Campbell without DMAC would have been ugly. People forget Jackson piled it on Palmer to carry the team he came off the couch to play for. Campbell wouldn't have been relied on to carry the team without DMAC, he couldn't do it. The Raiders would have been just as bad of shape.

-jc got better with the deep ball in the middle of the 2010 plus he had no target except ford. imo he showed what he could do when dhb steped up his game and moore came into the fold.
-carson is also not very accurate on his deep passes to wide open wrs. see: lions game (overthrew twice on crutial passes to chaz and moore) , denver game (overthrew moore (jr-ish) led to a int, for example)
-if palmer had a td to int ratio like peyton or brady then i wouldnt care and id have nothing to debate.
-without dmac cp looked ugly imo

i just dont think cp is worth the money he is being paid and for a cash strapped team i think the money could have gone to other places imo
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green24 wrote:

NCOUGHMAN >>>>>> all of you

big_palooka

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19018
Location: ATL

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:47 am Post subject:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

-jc got better with the deep ball in the middle of the 2010 plus he had no target except ford. imo he showed what he could do when dhb steped up his game and moore came into the fold.

I strongly suggest you go back and watch Campbell throw the deep ball before his injury and reply back with the same 'turn a blind eye homerism'.

You couldn't be further from wrong. Campbell's deep ball inaccuracy is a well talked about topic regarding how horrible it is. In fact, you're the first person I've ever seen try to defend it.

Then you use DHB stepping up his game to justify it? The one WR who struggles deep and can't track a ball? Really??

I'm dumbfounded. You're hate for Palmer just allows you to make stuff up to justify inferior QBs. No one would take the game managing afraid to take shots Campbell over Palmer on any team, period.

And while I hate PFF, I will allow them to justify what we all saw on Sunday's. Campbell missing wide open targets deep time and time again.

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/10/going-deep/

Campbell's deep ball completion percentage was 27% (14 completions out of 51 attempts), which was ranked 27th out of 31 QBs.

Cutler, Hanie, Smith and Cassell were only worse off.
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NCOUGHMAN

Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 12568
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:27 pm Post subject:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

-jc got better with the deep ball in the middle of the 2010 plus he had no target except ford. imo he showed what he could do when dhb steped up his game and moore came into the fold.

and cp was 24th with (54att 16comp 29.63%) miles ahead of jc right?
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green24 wrote:

NCOUGHMAN >>>>>> all of you

big_palooka

Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19018
Location: ATL

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

-jc got better with the deep ball in the middle of the 2010 plus he had no target except ford. imo he showed what he could do when dhb steped up his game and moore came into the fold.

and cp was 24th with (54att 16comp 29.63%) miles ahead of jc right?

I wasn't comparing anything to Palmer was I? Simply pointing out you're dead wrong about Campbell's deep ball.

But typical of you, you turn it around to something else.
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ZoomWaffle

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4567
Location: AZ

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

-jc got better with the deep ball in the middle of the 2010 plus he had no target except ford. imo he showed what he could do when dhb steped up his game and moore came into the fold.

and cp was 24th with (54att 16comp 29.63%) miles ahead of jc right?

I wasn't comparing anything to Palmer was I? Simply pointing out you're dead wrong about Campbell's deep ball.

But typical of you, you turn it around to something else.

I'm willing to bet that % would be quite a bit higher if Palmer actually had time to really work on timing with his WRs. Theres a reason his completion percentage was the 2nd lowest of his career (aside from his 4-game season back in '0 Cool

. You saw how Hue's game plan changed once he got Palmer- he was asked to carry that offense, without full knowledge of the playbook and with zero chemistry with his WRs (and a weak run game and defense). IDK, maybe I'm just crazy for thinking timing is important for QBs and WRs.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:

I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that

Silver&Black88

Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 24553
Location: Rochester, NY

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

-jc got better with the deep ball in the middle of the 2010 plus he had no target except ford. imo he showed what he could do when dhb steped up his game and moore came into the fold.

and cp was 24th with (54att 16comp 29.63%) miles ahead of jc right?

I wasn't comparing anything to Palmer was I? Simply pointing out you're dead wrong about Campbell's deep ball.

But typical of you, you turn it around to something else.

That's not the only reason you're crazy Wink

But in fairness, can you blame Hue? Lord knows Bush wasn't the most dependable fellow for a RB.
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husker_vikes3 wrote:

What do you season your meatballs and sausage with?

Preacher

Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 758

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject:

Silver&Black88 wrote:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

-jc got better with the deep ball in the middle of the 2010 plus he had no target except ford. imo he showed what he could do when dhb steped up his game and moore came into the fold.

and cp was 24th with (54att 16comp 29.63%) miles ahead of jc right?

I wasn't comparing anything to Palmer was I? Simply pointing out you're dead wrong about Campbell's deep ball.

But typical of you, you turn it around to something else.

That's not the only reason you're crazy Wink

But in fairness, can you blame Hue? Lord knows Bush wasn't the most dependable fellow for a RB.

Lord knows Bush did not have a relief back.
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91jmay

Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 20634
Location: Wonderland

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:41 pm Post subject:

Ncough is getting schooled here, the numbers simply don't bare out. Give it up son.
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baconrad3 wrote:

You mean Matt Stafford aka Stat Padford?

Silver&Black88

Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 24553
Location: Rochester, NY

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:43 pm Post subject:

Preacher wrote:

Lord knows Bush did not have a relief back.

Point is, he's not a feature back. But you're right. Why did Hue not sign another RB? Like a Michael Bennett or Louis Rankin? Seriously, Bush needed help and we had excess players at other positions IIRC. He did not understand the concept with depth. Boller at backup QB and after Jones' injury was Rock Cartwright at backup RB. Pathetic.
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husker_vikes3 wrote:

What do you season your meatballs and sausage with?

JTagg7754

Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 7218
Location: Somewhere in Ohio

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

JTagg7754 wrote:

B.....bu....b....but he's got swag Sad

But really, solid research, sir.

Campbell might have swag but it doesn't matter anymore unless swag heats up the bench better for other starters when they come off the field.

this i why im done. i bring facts and you guys bring jokes. continue...

LOL Do you mean you ignore facts? That's a severely more accurate statement. I mean, there's really nothing left to do but joke at this point.....
_________________

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

Quote:

you wouldnt want Rodgers Brady or Manning in his prime as your QBs?

not with the way the nfl is right now. id take a guy like kaep over them

ZoomWaffle

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4567
Location: AZ

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:13 pm Post subject:

Silver&Black88 wrote:

That's not the only reason you're crazy Wink

A little bit of crazy is good sometimes... well, unless they have your address

Silver&Black88 wrote:

Preacher wrote:

Lord knows Bush did not have a relief back.

That was Hue's biggest mistake IMO. I don't remember who exactly was available in the FA pool, but rolling with Bush, Reece (who has barely any experience running the ball), Jones and Cartwright was a huge mistake. He should have signed somebody else.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:

I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that

Silver&Black88

Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 24553
Location: Rochester, NY

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:19 pm Post subject:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

Silver&Black88 wrote:

That's not the only reason you're crazy Wink

A little bit of crazy is good sometimes... well, unless they have your address

Silver&Black88 wrote:

Preacher wrote:

Lord knows Bush did not have a relief back.

I'd say Boller as the main backup was worse than signing no RB after DMC got hurt but that was terrible too.

Wonder how it would have shaken out with a decent backup QB option. Would we have traded up for RG3? Or even Tannenhil? Maybe sign Matt Flynn. Or would we have been fine with JCam again? Interesting to think about
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husker_vikes3 wrote:

What do you season your meatballs and sausage with?

ZoomWaffle

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4567
Location: AZ

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

big_palooka wrote:

NCOUGHMAN wrote:

-jc got better with the deep ball in the middle of the 2010 plus he had no target except ford. imo he showed what he could do when dhb steped up his game and moore came into the fold.

and cp was 24th with (54att 16comp 29.63%) miles ahead of jc right?

I wasn't comparing anything to Palmer was I? Simply pointing out you're dead wrong about Campbell's deep ball.

But typical of you, you turn it around to something else.

I hate to give any ammo to NCOUGH here, but I gotta be fair- I re-read that article and its from 2011, so it was before CP was a Raider. However, I also saw something else I didn't see before I posted previously: interception percentages on deep throws. Campbell threw twice as many deep picks than Palmer- on fewer attempts- and thats only passes over 20 yards. Either, this does not change my opinion of Palmer's deep ball, or him as a QB. I was unable to find any stats for his deep ball completion percentage in any other year- including last year. However, I watched every game last year, and the year previously, and it was easy to see that Campbell had pretty poor deep ball accuracy, and wince Palmer came to town we saw a lot more deep balls completed.

Campbell had a very good run game, which Palmer did not. Point: Palmer

Palmer came off the couch having zero work with his WRs and had like 3 days to learn the playbook before being thrown in, and IMO you can write off his first 2 games (if not more) because of that. Point: Palmer

Campbell performed worse than Palmer in the absence of DMC, so reasonable logic tells you Palmer would have done more than Campbell did had he had the same weapons. Point: Palmer

Palmer threw more picks, but Campbell took less chances and severely missed on too many deep balls- causing stalls, punts and sacks. Palmer gave his WRs more and better opportunities to make a big play and score. Depending on the type of offense you like, a case could be made for wanting a play-it-safe QB who rarely turns it over, but rarely makes a big play. Point: Split

Campbell ran better, but unless he did what Newton or Vick does, its not enough to warrant bumping him up over Palmer's passing ability. I think that about covers everything, Im done with this argument.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:

I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that

Last edited by ZoomWaffle on Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

ZoomWaffle

Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4567
Location: AZ

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:36 pm Post subject:

Silver&Black88 wrote:

ZoomWaffle wrote:

Silver&Black88 wrote:

That's not the only reason you're crazy Wink

A little bit of crazy is good sometimes... well, unless they have your address

Silver&Black88 wrote:

Preacher wrote:

Lord knows Bush did not have a relief back.

Ah, too true. I believe Garrard was available at that point in FA. I wouldn't have wanted Tannenhil, but it would have been interesting to see what would have happened in the draft had we not traded for Palmer.
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Silver&Black88 on the sig

La_Vader wrote:

I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that

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