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MightyJoeYoung
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 Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: Drew Butler |
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So guys, what are we thinking about Drew Butler?
Personally, I think he has a real chance to make this team and do well.
His college stats definitely show ability.
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Kapinos wasn't bad...but not great either. He has a somewhat strong leg, but didn't think he did too well w/ pinning balls inside the 20. If Butler is more "adept" at that skill, than I'm all for it. Assume he'd be a smidgen cheaper too, and hate count pennies, but me might have to here pretty soon.
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turtle28
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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I like him A lot but I'm not a fan of rookie kickers and punters. I think Kapinos keeps his job
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 mike23md
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| turtle28 wrote: | | I like him A lot but I'm not a fan of rookie kickers and punters. I think Kapinos keeps his job |
Alex Henery had the 5th highest kicking percentage for an outdoor team as a rookie...just sayin'...and Dan Bailey also had a good year overall with the 10th highest percentage...care to guess where Suisham ranked? Why we didn't make a solid effort to upgrade Suisham is beyond me...maybe they will go for it on 4th down a lot more this year inside the 35yd line up to about the where Suisham is accurate from...about the 21. Is it too late to and do they lose too much face if they contact Jeff Reed and say..."Uh, yeah, about that whole 'letting you go from the team thing', well, we feel you've learned your lesson and decide to allow you to come back and be our kicker." 
As far as punters, TJ Conley tied for 3rd with punts dropped inside the 20, and Masthay did a great job for the Packers in 2010 as a rookie for a cold weather team like the Steelers. My point is the two positions have to be the easiest of all the positions to learn, IMO, therefore easiest learning curve for a rookie. I'd be all about Butler over Kapinos if Butler proved to have better accuracy and equivalent power. We should have at least ONE ace in the kicking game!
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FourThreeMafia
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| Ward4HOF wrote: | | turtle28 wrote: | | I like him A lot but I'm not a fan of rookie kickers and punters. I think Kapinos keeps his job |
Alex Henery had the 5th highest kicking percentage for an outdoor team as a rookie...just sayin'...and Dan Bailey also had a good year overall with the 10th highest percentage...care to guess where Suisham ranked? Why we didn't make a solid effort to upgrade Suisham is beyond me...maybe they will go for it on 4th down a lot more this year inside the 35yd line up to about the where Suisham is accurate from...about the 21. Is it too late to and do they lose too much face if they contact Jeff Reed and say..."Uh, yeah, about that whole 'letting you go from the team thing', well, we feel you've learned your lesson and decide to allow you to come back and be our kicker."
As far as punters, TJ Conley tied for 3rd with punts dropped inside the 20, and Masthay did a great job for the Packers in 2010 as a rookie for a cold weather team like the Steelers. My point is the two positions have to be the easiest of all the positions to learn, IMO, therefore easiest learning curve for a rookie. I'd be all about Butler over Kapinos if Butler proved to have better accuracy and equivalent power. We should have at least ONE ace in the kicking game! |
Jeff Reed was worse in 2010 than Suisham was in 2011.
There is a reason Reed cant find work with anyone and wants to come back.
Suisham was actually solid at the end of 2010 after replacing Reed.
And please dont compare all outdoor kicking to Heinz Field. Its not the same.
Kickers are incredibly fickle. There really arent many who are great year after year. There are some who have a good year and then blow, and then have a good season the next year.
I am all for replacing Suisham IF we can find an actual upgrade, but you can do worse than him. Seems like some just want to replace him for the sake of doing it. He is nothing special at all, but there really isnt anything better out there. Jeff Reed is a lateral move at this point, and was a little punk when he left here, badmouthing fans and stuff. That bum can go back to beating up Sheetz towel dispensers.
If a rookie shows better than Suisham...awesome, but in alot of cases even supposedly good ones do nothing. Over the years there have been several young guys we have brought in that Steeler fans were excited about, but they never did jack.
As for Kapinos...he is fine for now. Again, if someone beat him out legit Id be fine with it, but Butler hasnt shown jack at this level yet, so lets not assume he is an "ace". How many ace punters are there anyway? 4 or 5 maybe? Kapinos was actually above average in terms of net yards and average, so Im perfectly happy with him for now unless a surefire upgrade comes along. We dont need another Paul Ernster. I dont have enough sod and lime, nor the space in my back yard.
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turtle28
Joined: 21 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Ward4HOF wrote: | | turtle28 wrote: | | I like him A lot but I'm not a fan of rookie kickers and punters. I think Kapinos keeps his job |
Alex Henery had the 5th highest kicking percentage for an outdoor team as a rookie...just sayin'...and Dan Bailey also had a good year overall with the 10th highest percentage...care to guess where Suisham ranked? Why we didn't make a solid effort to upgrade Suisham is beyond me...maybe they will go for it on 4th down a lot more this year inside the 35yd line up to about the where Suisham is accurate from...about the 21. Is it too late to and do they lose too much face if they contact Jeff Reed and say..."Uh, yeah, about that whole 'letting you go from the team thing', well, we feel you've learned your lesson and decide to allow you to come back and be our kicker."
As far as punters, TJ Conley tied for 3rd with punts dropped inside the 20, and Masthay did a great job for the Packers in 2010 as a rookie for a cold weather team like the Steelers. My point is the two positions have to be the easiest of all the positions to learn, IMO, therefore easiest learning curve for a rookie. I'd be all about Butler over Kapinos if Butler proved to have better accuracy and equivalent power. We should have at least ONE ace in the kicking game! |
I hear ya, but I'm still not a big fan of rookie kickers and punters. Those guys seem more like the exception than the rule. I'm still salty about the redskins wasting a 6th round pick on Durant Brooks as a punter in the 08 draft and when he got to the pros he forgot how to punt.
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mike23md
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at23steelers
Joined: 05 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| @43: Many fans think the grass is greener on the other side. I agree with what you said. Don't have to look too far back at either position to know you can do much worse with Jeff Reed that one year, Todd Peterson, Kris Brown and then Berger and Ernester at punter. I accept a punting battle, and think it's good competition but I think when it's all said and done, Kapinos keeps the job. Suisham rarely misses under 40 yards, so I think someone saying we go for it more on 4th and short at around the 30 yard line is a good possibility. As long as we don't go into the Arians playbook and do a toss play!! |
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| FourThreeMafia wrote: | | Ward4HOF wrote: | | turtle28 wrote: | | I like him A lot but I'm not a fan of rookie kickers and punters. I think Kapinos keeps his job |
Alex Henery had the 5th highest kicking percentage for an outdoor team as a rookie...just sayin'...and Dan Bailey also had a good year overall with the 10th highest percentage...care to guess where Suisham ranked? Why we didn't make a solid effort to upgrade Suisham is beyond me...maybe they will go for it on 4th down a lot more this year inside the 35yd line up to about the where Suisham is accurate from...about the 21. Is it too late to and do they lose too much face if they contact Jeff Reed and say..."Uh, yeah, about that whole 'letting you go from the team thing', well, we feel you've learned your lesson and decide to allow you to come back and be our kicker."
As far as punters, TJ Conley tied for 3rd with punts dropped inside the 20, and Masthay did a great job for the Packers in 2010 as a rookie for a cold weather team like the Steelers. My point is the two positions have to be the easiest of all the positions to learn, IMO, therefore easiest learning curve for a rookie. I'd be all about Butler over Kapinos if Butler proved to have better accuracy and equivalent power. We should have at least ONE ace in the kicking game! |
Jeff Reed was worse in 2010 than Suisham was in 2011.
There is a reason Reed cant find work with anyone and wants to come back.
Suisham was actually solid at the end of 2010 after replacing Reed.
And please dont compare all outdoor kicking to Heinz Field. Its not the same.
Kickers are incredibly fickle. There really arent many who are great year after year. There are some who have a good year and then blow, and then have a good season the next year.
I am all for replacing Suisham IF we can find an actual upgrade, but you can do worse than him. Seems like some just want to replace him for the sake of doing it. He is nothing special at all, but there really isnt anything better out there. Jeff Reed is a lateral move at this point, and was a little punk when he left here, badmouthing fans and stuff. That bum can go back to beating up Sheetz towel dispensers.
If a rookie shows better than Suisham...awesome, but in alot of cases even supposedly good ones do nothing. Over the years there have been several young guys we have brought in that Steeler fans were excited about, but they never did jack.
As for Kapinos...he is fine for now. Again, if someone beat him out legit Id be fine with it, but Butler hasnt shown jack at this level yet, so lets not assume he is an "ace". How many ace punters are there anyway? 4 or 5 maybe? Kapinos was actually above average in terms of net yards and average, so Im perfectly happy with him for now unless a surefire upgrade comes along. We dont need another Paul Ernster. I dont have enough sod and lime, nor the space in my back yard. |
Suisham was 6 for 11 from 40-49 yards out and only 75% at 30-39 yds, and 1 for 2 50+yds out, 13-21 over 30yds. Please show me a kicker who was worse, as you are implying. I get that kickers don't grow on trees and Heinz field is a tough place to kick, but he can be upgraded, without a doubt. Suisham's best career full season pct is 83%, so his woes are not only at Heinz field. He did perform well at the end of 2010, I'll give him that, but just as you alluded, some years they look good, and others they don't. I suppose he deserves a shot in 2012 to go back to 2010 form, and looking at his career overall, nothing shows that he will ever be an above average kicker, no matter where he kicks. I never said to replace Suisham for the sake of replacing him, just would like them to bring in some healthy competition as opposed to just a FA rookie.
And I never compared Heinz field to anything, so not sure where that comment came from. I made a reference when discussing punters and cold weather teams, and I said that a rookie kicker did well on an outdoor team, but I never made any comaprison to Heinz field, nor was one implied in any statement.
The Jeff Reed thing was "tongue-in-cheek", if you didn't catch the humor there, sorry...I even used a smilie face this time. Point was, Suisham can be upgraded. Yes, Reed was a punk and glad he's gone as well, and wouldn't even call it a lateral move, as Reed pretty much imploded in 2010.
My argument for Butler was in response to Turtle saying he didn't like rookie kickers/punters. Ace may have been a strong choice of words, but I meant it more in general that it would be nice to have at least one...I would look more to what I said the sentence before on Kapinos vs. Butler as a more "specific" reference to the two... "I'd be all about Butler over Kapinos if Butler proved to have better accuracy and equivalent power." Don't act like I'm crowning him...I'm with you, he has to prove it...and I agree, Kapinos was not a bad punter for us and has a strong leg, and we could do a lot worse at that position, I just don't think using the fact that a guy is a rookie is valid argument to say he doesn't have a chance to beat out Kapinos.
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FourThreeMafia
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Ward4HOF wrote: | | Suisham was 6 for 11 from 40-49 yards out and only 75% at 30-39 yds, and 1 for 2 50+yds out, 13-21 over 30yds. Please show me a kicker who was worse, as you are implying. |
Suisham is nothing special, but trying to claim Suisham is the worst after one year is over the top, especially for kickers.
You dont have to like him. Im not his biggest fan either. My point is that, while you can do better...you can do worse as well.
Not saying we shouldnt look, but I wouldnt just blindly give someone the job to get rid of Suisham. (AND IM NOT SAYING THATS WHAT YOU SAID...just that some seem to want that)
| Ward4HOF wrote: | | I get that kickers don't grow on trees and Heinz field is a tough place to kick, but he can be upgraded, without a doubt. |
I never once claimed otherwise.
In fact, I even said he could be upgraded.
What I am asking for, is the the name of a single available kicker that is a DEFINITE upgrade over Suisham. Because I dont see it.
As I said, maybe some lateral moves, but nothing DEFINITELY better.
[quote="Ward4HOF"]Suisham's best career full season pct is 83%, so his woes are not only at Heinz field. [/qupte]
No, they arent. That was a seperate point, though.
| Ward4HOF wrote: | | He did perform well at the end of 2010, I'll give him that, but just as you alluded, some years they look good, and others they don't. I suppose he deserves a shot in 2012 to go back to 2010 form, and looking at his career overall, nothing shows that he will ever be an above average kicker, no matter where he kicks. I never said to replace Suisham for the sake of replacing him, just would like them to bring in some healthy competition as opposed to just a FA rookie. |
I never claimed you said that. Many Steeler fans do though. They just say "get rid of Suisham" without really have any really idea of who to replace him with.
| Ward4HOF wrote: | And I never compared Heinz field to anything, so not sure where that comment came from. I made a reference when discussing punters and cold weather teams, and I said that a rookie kicker did well on an outdoor team, but I never made any comaprison to Heinz field, nor was one implied in any statement.
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You didnt do it directly, but when you bring up kickers outdoor kicking percentages as a comparison, you are doing it indirectly. Just because a player could kick outdoors well in one stadium doesnt mean he would have the same success everywhere.
| Ward4HOF wrote: | | The Jeff Reed thing was "tongue-in-cheek", if you didn't catch the humor there, sorry...I even used a smilie face this time. Point was, Suisham can be upgraded. Yes, Reed was a punk and glad he's gone as well, and wouldn't even call it a lateral move, as Reed pretty much imploded in 2010. |
Fair enough. I saw the smiley but thought you were just joking about the phone call to him....not actually bringing him back.
| Ward4HOF wrote: | | My argument for Butler was in response to Turtle saying he didn't like rookie kickers/punters. Ace may have been a strong choice of words, but I meant it more in general that it would be nice to have at least one...I would look more to what I said the sentence before on Kapinos vs. Butler as a more "specific" reference to the two... "I'd be all about Butler over Kapinos if Butler proved to have better accuracy and equivalent power." Don't act like I'm crowning him...I'm with you, he has to prove it...and I agree, Kapinos was not a bad punter for us and has a strong leg, and we could do a lot worse at that position, I just don't think using the fact that a guy is a rookie is valid argument to say he doesn't have a chance to beat out Kapinos. |
Again...fair enough.
But I never said he couldnt beat out Kapinos, but Ive seen Kapinos get alot of disrespect from Steeler fans. NOT YOU, but Ive been hearing Steeler fans wanting to replace him a good bit, and I dont get why. He played just as well as Sepulveda after he got injured, and before that, most Steeler fans were big fans of Sep. So I dont get why people dont like Kapinos considering there was no real drop off. He even played very well the year before when Sep went down late in the year.
Bottom line...I am all about competition regardless of position. I just think Steeler fans are a little too optimistic about what is available in terms of upgrades.
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| cluelessororke wrote: | | I am going to laugh in your face when they don't even sniff WR until day three of the draft |
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Ward4HOF
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:35 am Post subject: |
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I guess, overall, the point of my reponse needs to be taken in account when looking at why I mentioned the cold weather teams/outdoor stadiums. My only point with that comment was in response to why rookies cannot be so easily dismissed as viable options in the kicking game...I was dispelling any thought that the only reason they would be successful was because they were in a dome. The fact that Henery performed as well as he did as a rookie AND an outdoor team, as well as Masthay the year before, shows evidence that a rookie kicker/punter can and should be a viable option.
As far Suisham's best full season percentage, unless CBS sports is wrong, his best kicking percentage for a full 16 game season is 83%. In 12 games he had an 85.7% percentage, which is average, but adding his 2 games in Dallas in the same season brings that average even further down. Kicking a full season is a much better indicator on how a kicker performs than partial seasons.
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at23steelers
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Ward4HOF wrote: | I guess, overall, the point of my reponse needs to be taken in account when looking at why I mentioned the cold weather teams/outdoor stadiums. My only point with that comment was in response to why rookies cannot be so easily dismissed as viable options in the kicking game...I was dispelling any thought that the only reason they would be successful was because they were in a dome. The fact that Henery performed as well as he did as a rookie AND an outdoor team, as well as Masthay the year before, shows evidence that a rookie kicker/punter can and should be a viable option.
As far Suisham's best full season percentage, unless CBS sports is wrong, his best kicking percentage for a full 16 game season is 83%. In 12 games he had an 85.7% percentage, which is average, but adding his 2 games in Dallas in the same season brings that average even further down. Kicking a full season is a much better indicator on how a kicker performs than partial seasons. |
Im sorry but that FULL 16 game season thing isn't the best thing to go off of, because in 8 years, he's only kicked a full 16 games, 3 times!! In 2010 for us, he did kick 8-9 in 40-49 range, so he does have the ability to kick from that distance. |
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FourThreeMafia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:31 am Post subject: |
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Suisham's issue is consistency. Always has been.
I am all for an upgrade.
Just saying its not as easy to find as some Steeler fans seem to think (not you Ward).
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| cluelessororke wrote: | | I am going to laugh in your face when they don't even sniff WR until day three of the draft |
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Ward4HOF
Joined: 11 Apr 2011
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| FourThreeMafia wrote: | Suisham's issue is consistency. Always has been.
I am all for an upgrade.
Just saying its not as easy to find as some Steeler fans seem to think (not you Ward). |
Agreed, that's is partially why he can't seem to stick to roster for very long. I remember I was one of those you mentioned that was actually excited about him when he was with us in preseason several years back, but ultimately, he didn't pan out.
So yes, it's not as easy as I'm making it sound to find a replacement, and we do have to trust the FO to some extent, but I'd sure like to see them bring in a veteran kicker or two to at least "try" to beat out Suisham in preseason rather than bring in a rookie FA and leave it at that. In doing so, it sends a signal, at least to me, that they feel he is either the best they can hopefully attain or that they are satisfied with him, neither of which, as a fan, am I happy about...
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Ward4HOF
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| at23steelers wrote: | | Ward4HOF wrote: | I guess, overall, the point of my reponse needs to be taken in account when looking at why I mentioned the cold weather teams/outdoor stadiums. My only point with that comment was in response to why rookies cannot be so easily dismissed as viable options in the kicking game...I was dispelling any thought that the only reason they would be successful was because they were in a dome. The fact that Henery performed as well as he did as a rookie AND an outdoor team, as well as Masthay the year before, shows evidence that a rookie kicker/punter can and should be a viable option.
As far Suisham's best full season percentage, unless CBS sports is wrong, his best kicking percentage for a full 16 game season is 83%. In 12 games he had an 85.7% percentage, which is average, but adding his 2 games in Dallas in the same season brings that average even further down. Kicking a full season is a much better indicator on how a kicker performs than partial seasons. |
Im sorry but that FULL 16 game season thing isn't the best thing to go off of, because in 8 years, he's only kicked a full 16 games, 3 times!! In 2010 for us, he did kick 8-9 in 40-49 range, so he does have the ability to kick from that distance. |
which just further solidifies my point that he is not very good...he kicked w/ three different teams in that span, and was "fired" from all three (including the Steelers several years ago).
Ability has never been his issue, consistancy has been, as 43M alluded, which again, is why he has only kicked for a full season in 3 out of 8 he's been in the league.
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turtle28
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| at23steelers wrote: | | @43: Many fans think the grass is greener on the other side. I agree with what you said. Don't have to look too far back at either position to know you can do much worse with Jeff Reed that one year, Todd Peterson, Kris Brown and then Berger and Ernester at punter. I accept a punting battle, and think it's good competition but I think when it's all said and done, Kapinos keeps the job. Suisham rarely misses under 40 yards, so I think someone saying we go for it more on 4th and short at around the 30 yard line is a good possibility. As long as we don't go into the Arians playbook and do a toss play!! |
I totally agree! I remember redskins fans wanting to dump Suisham and then we got Gano and Gano is young, has more talent (so I know he'll improve) and a stronger leg, anyways Gano is inconsistent and has had problems with his kicks getting blocked. I'm sure in the end it will turn out to be a move for the best, but Suisham doesn't usually miss at all from 45 and in.
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mike23md
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