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Homer/hater stuff aside...Is Dallas now a joke?
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mco65


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Calvert28 wrote:

When did Schram or Landry ever attempt a trade where they gave a superstar for a bunch of draft picks? The answer is never. Landry was loyal to a fault, a fact which he was loved for. But nevertheless further proves Jimmy credit on the deal. You could say Jerry, except Jerry has tried to repeat the big trade deals numerous times after Jimmy left and with catastrophic consequences, namely the Deion trade which put us in salary cap hell, Galloway, Roy Williams, etc and so forth.

And what does Landry and Schram developing a Europe league have anything to do with the conversation? Did you know that the Cowboys were in danger of losing their franchise to the already then popular Dallas Texans which later became known as the Kansas City Chiefs?


I am on the side of Jimmy was the catalyst behind the 90s SBs, not Jerry.. but I do take issue with a few of your comments..

You asked WHEN did Schramm and Landry EVER trade a Superstar for a bunch of draft picks.. never??? Those of us who have been around a while remember exactly when the Cowboys traded their BEST RB Duane Thomas and ROY not once but twice! For draft picks..

I also remember Landry cutting a player, a good player, the BEST LB on the team, Hollywood Henderson. Landry was NOT LOYAL to a fault.. he was loyal but he was football first.. if you could not help the team or you hurt the team more than you helped, you were GONE! PERIOD!.

I also do not understand this statement; "Did you know that the Cowboys were in danger of losing their franchise to the already then popular Dallas Texans which later became known as the Kansas City Chiefs?"

I was not around the early 60s but I never read the Cowboys were ever in trouble because of the Texans.. I know they had to compete with them for PLAYERS and they shared the Cotton Bowl as their home field.. The Cowboys and Chiefs both began playing in 1960 so how could the Chiefs already be more popular? They both played in the Cotton Bowl and the Texans out drew the Cowboys 2 of the 3 years they shared the same home.. but they didn't out draw them by MUCH despite having a far superior product.. including the AFL Champions in 1962.

The Texans won 12 games in 1962 including the AFL Championship. The Cowboys had only won 9 TOTAL Games from 1960 through 1962 yet the Texans had only a slight edge over the Cowboys at the box office... If the Texans couldn't at least double the Cowboys attendance when they had the best team in the AFL while the Cowboys had the worst in the NFL, Lamar Hunt knew he stood no chance against the Cowboys if they ever started to win.. It turns out, Lamar Hunt was a genius. He moved the Texans to KC just before the Cowboys went on a 20 season winning streak!

I wont say the Texans were ever in trouble but they certainly were not turning much of a profit in Dallas and competing with the NFL's Cowboys was a losing proposition. So, they moved to KC.. if the Cowboys were the team in trouble, it seems that they would have moved.. but what do I know..
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northland wrote:
The Cowboys are a joke. Beating a dead horse alert time. On the pregame show, Mike Ditka quoted Jim Finks, who some time ago said something to the effect of "Owners own, coaches coach, and players play. If you upset that equation you are going to have trouble."

We have an owner pretending to be a GM. Have had this for some time. One playoff win since 1996. We have a team constructed of 7-10 very good players and an enormous drop in talent between them and the rest of the roster. GM doesn't believe in the trenches. Don't need to say much else.


There's more to them being a joke than Jerry Jones. And more to their losses than talent gaps or poor trench play.

Don't forget, Romo played well aside from trying to do too much and getting no help from his receivers for the last 2 or 3 games. Ware, well, he's relatively quietly been a Hall of Fame caliber player since his rookie year. Ratliff is a dominant man in the trenches. Sean Lee looks the part of a long time stud at his spot. Carr and Claibourne have played well aside from a few misqueues (which is easily chalked up to inexperience with the system). Murray seems to be the everydown back we thought we would have with Marion Barber, Julius Jones and Troy Hambrick.

We have vital cogs in place. You don't get those vital positions covered without having smart drafts or good moves or surprising trades here and there. So while Jerry is a laughable mockery of a GM, we are at the least quite talented and have more than the potential needed to win games.

What we lack is work ethic (Trip to Mexico during playoff season, anyone? And I'm still looking for a Dez Bryant sighting in the 4th quarter), an experienced coach who didn't learn to call plays until we gave him the opportunity, a defensive coordinator who understands zone coverage is a dying playcall in today's NFL for a reason, and a sense of stability (how many OLs have we rotated in, out, and swapped now in the last 2 years?) on the offensive line.

We have more than a lot of teams have, despite that all, and despite Jerry Jones. So "WTF" is the problem? Why can't we win the winnable matchups? Where does our running game go when we need it? I don't know, exactly. But that is what makes us a joke - we can do it, we have the pieces to do it, but the only consistency we ever get, is that we consistently DON'T do it.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dallas94Ware wrote:
Northland wrote:
The Cowboys are a joke. Beating a dead horse alert time. On the pregame show, Mike Ditka quoted Jim Finks, who some time ago said something to the effect of "Owners own, coaches coach, and players play. If you upset that equation you are going to have trouble."

We have an owner pretending to be a GM. Have had this for some time. One playoff win since 1996. We have a team constructed of 7-10 very good players and an enormous drop in talent between them and the rest of the roster. GM doesn't believe in the trenches. Don't need to say much else.


There's more to them being a joke than Jerry Jones. And more to their losses than talent gaps or poor trench play.

Don't forget, Romo played well aside from trying to do too much and getting no help from his receivers for the last 2 or 3 games. Ware, well, he's relatively quietly been a Hall of Fame caliber player since his rookie year. Ratliff is a dominant man in the trenches. Sean Lee looks the part of a long time stud at his spot. Carr and Claibourne have played well aside from a few misqueues (which is easily chalked up to inexperience with the system). Murray seems to be the everydown back we thought we would have with Marion Barber, Julius Jones and Troy Hambrick.

We have vital cogs in place. You don't get those vital positions covered without having smart drafts or good moves or surprising trades here and there. So while Jerry is a laughable mockery of a GM, we are at the least quite talented and have more than the potential needed to win games.

What we lack is work ethic (Trip to Mexico during playoff season, anyone? And I'm still looking for a Dez Bryant sighting in the 4th quarter), an experienced coach who didn't learn to call plays until we gave him the opportunity, a defensive coordinator who understands zone coverage is a dying playcall in today's NFL for a reason, and a sense of stability (how many OLs have we rotated in, out, and swapped now in the last 2 years?) on the offensive line.

We have more than a lot of teams have, despite that all, and despite Jerry Jones. So "WTF" is the problem? Why can't we win the winnable matchups? Where does our running game go when we need it? I don't know, exactly. But that is what makes us a joke - we can do it, we have the pieces to do it, but the only consistency we ever get, is that we consistently DON'T do it.


I don't dispute any of the players you site above and the quality of players that they are. But it does augment my argument: we have a core of 7-10 very good players, some as you mention Hall of Fame worthy. But the drop off in talent from our core to the rest of the roster is huge. Jerry's stamp is all over the team; he is responsible for the product on the field. I truly believe that Jerry thinks a handful of stars can overcome deficiencies elsewhere. On that point I think he has been proven conclusively to be wrong.

There is more to the game than just the trenches, but is any other element more important? Look at our offense (the worst in the league at this point in the season). Great QB. Potential franchise RB. Hall of Fame TE. Solid to good, potentially great WR. Why does our offense stink? Our inability to develop a solid line. It starts up front.

Defensively I will agree that our secondary was horrible last year and is significantly improved at the CB position. This improvement has helped the defense no doubt. But other than Ware who can rush the passer? How long have we been searching for a complimentary pass rushing threat for Ware? Not every DE in a 34 can be JJ Watt and that is not my expectation. But regardless of system of defense played a strong pass rush can overcome a lot of sins. Ask the Giants how important a strong rush and overall d line dominance is and what impact it can have on a game. Heck, ask Tom Brady.

I have no issues with your concerns about work ethic. It has been an issue for years through numerous coaches. What or whom has been the constant in this era? JJ. Where does our running game go when we need it? We don't have an OL capable of getting a push. Again that falls on Jerry.

I know and appreciate that the bash Jerry argument is an old one. But it is relevant. He has been the only constant through our era of futility and mediocrity. I am more than willing to give him credit for the stronger drafts we have had recently and for the players you mention. I can't bash him and not give him credit for getting those players . However, when your stamp is all over the club, above and beyond the stable of stars, who else can ultimately be held accountable at the end of the day?
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40Year Pack Fan


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the beginning of this thread and am amazed at the indifference to having a Victoria Secret store in a football stadium......Are you for real?.....How can the players be serious about winning football games, with the circus Jerry Jones created is all around them?.....They have to be aware that it's all about the $$$.....Some times money isn't the answer to motivating people into being serious about what they are doing, and to believe in the product they are promoting........I have to believe Tom Landry is rolling in his grave.....

Tony Romo has to go......He just doesn't have the killer instinct to be a champion, and I'm not sure your team buys into him.....Maybe you need to have a legitimate back up quarterback to give Tony a little competition.....I don't know.....With only one post season win under his belt, I'm just not sure he's going to take the Cowboys to the promised land......
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northland wrote:

I don't dispute any of the players you site above and the quality of players that they are. But it does augment my argument: we have a core of 7-10 very good players, some as you mention Hall of Fame worthy. But the drop off in talent from our core to the rest of the roster is huge. Jerry's stamp is all over the team; he is responsible for the product on the field. I truly believe that Jerry thinks a handful of stars can overcome deficiencies elsewhere. On that point I think he has been proven conclusively to be wrong.


Is that much different than most teams, though? Even the championship ones. The average NFL career is 3.5 years. Thats a LOT of camp fodders and spot holders, and even Super Bowl winners have slews of them. In todays NFL, you can't line up with 11 All pros on each side of the ball. If you have 4 or 5 on each side of the ball, you're in really good shape. Super Bowls have been won with less.

Quote:

There is more to the game than just the trenches, but is any other element more important?

Having played offensive tackle in high school and college, I'd have to say that no, there damn sure isn't. SO SHOW SOME LOVE YOUR FATBOYS UP FRONT, PLEASE! Very Happy

Quote:
Look at our offense (the worst in the league at this point in the season). Great QB. Potential franchise RB. Hall of Fame TE. Solid to good, potentially great WR. Why does our offense stink? Our inability to develop a solid line. It starts up front.


Again, can't argue with that point. But there is a lot of things going wrong there, not just the OL or it's talent. The headcoach just doesn't have the knack for playcalling. He becomes very predictable, and if a defense can predict what is coming, the play is over before the ball is snapped.

Also a vital cog of our receiving group is lazy, takes routes off (highlighted three separate times on Monday night alone - and thats just the times they showed it) when he knows he isn't getting the ball, and has a serious lack of focus. The other of the duo has a severe tendency to over run his routes - a poor adjustment that forces the QB to hold the ball longer.

Then there is Romo. Great quarterback who tries too hard at the wrong times. A lot of what people say of Romo (negative just as much as positive) was said about Favre, too. And no one would argue Favre's greatness, despite all of his forced-it interceptions, overthrows for pick-six's and the like. But trying too hard, and those bad picks, is what prevented Favre from winning his second ring. And likely what could prevent romo from winning his first.

So there's more to it than just the OL and the play of the OL. But yes, still can't argue, a better OL is helpful. Though one could also argue, that Romo is at his best when the protection has broken down...

Quote:

I have no issues with your concerns about work ethic. It has been an issue for years through numerous coaches. What or whom has been the constant in this era? JJ. Where does our running game go when we need it? We don't have an OL capable of getting a push. Again that falls on Jerry.


You're putting too much emphasis on Jerry. I understand why, but you can't ignore all of the other factors, either. I mean for starters, Tyron Smith and Doug Free both had enourmous potential - and if you can lock down your tackle spots, guard and center fall into place much more easily.

There's more than one factor accounting for the loses and the poor play. Jerry is one of them. But not the biggest, worst, or only of them. Just part of them all - and there's a lot of them.
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

40Year Pack Fan wrote:
I read the beginning of this thread and am amazed at the indifference to having a Victoria Secret store in a football stadium......Are you for real?.....How can the players be serious about winning football games, with the circus Jerry Jones created is all around them?.....They have to be aware that it's all about the $$$.....Some times money isn't the answer to motivating people into being serious about what they are doing, and to believe in the product they are promoting........I have to believe Tom Landry is rolling in his grave.....

Tony Romo has to go......He just doesn't have the killer instinct to be a champion, and I'm not sure your team buys into him.....Maybe you need to have a legitimate back up quarterback to give Tony a little competition.....I don't know.....With only one post season win under his belt, I'm just not sure he's going to take the Cowboys to the promised land......


Soooo, your theory is, being near a panty store means you can't focus on football? I"m pretty sure everyone on our team has been out of high school for a few years now...
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40Year Pack Fan


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dallas94Ware wrote:

Soooo, your theory is, being near a panty store means you can't focus on football? I"m pretty sure everyone on our team has been out of high school for a few years now...


Sorry but that's irrelevant......You could have a store which sell cow manure patties.....My point is, you could go elsewhere to find such.....Some where other than a football stadium....
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

40Year Pack Fan wrote:
Dallas94Ware wrote:

Soooo, your theory is, being near a panty store means you can't focus on football? I"m pretty sure everyone on our team has been out of high school for a few years now...


Sorry but that's irrelevant......You could have a store which sell cow manure patties.....My point is, you could go elsewhere to find such.....Some where other than a football stadium....


So?

Sorry, but the irrelevant post here is your notion that a store (when there are MANY stores there, not just a panty store) being in the stadium is going to effect wins/losses and on field play of a team. Thats kind of insane, actually.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Dallas94Ware

I don't expect all pros at every position. It seems like we go from feast to famine in terms of the quality of player at the top end of the team vs. the rest of the club. But let me quote from an attached Bob Sturm article to better articulate my position. I pulled several sections from the article below. Jerry can't coach nor can he execute the plays. But he is largely responsible for the debacle that we are witnessing. The buck stops with him.

http://sturminator.blogspot.ca/2012/01/morning-after-giants-31-cowboys-14-8-8.html

"Once upon a time, the Cowboys organization set the pace for excellence in the league. Playoff regulars and a team that amassed division titles, playoff wins, and Super Bowls for much of the first 35 years of its existence has now hit such a drastic wall that nearly every fan of the team can recite the horrible facts:"

"In 15 years, the Cowboys have 1 wildcard playoff victory. One. That's one more than the Muncie Flyers and the Canton Bulldogs, but given that those teams folded shortly after World War 1, that would clearly not be a very large consolation."

"Mental toughness is a great tie-breaker when talent is equal, but in this space, the premise is that the Cowboys have some very impressive top end talent, but not nearly enough strength on their roster to win a game like the contest that was asked of them on Sunday Night in New York."
"This team fails in December for one primary and simple reason: The roster doesn't contain the quality personnel that is required to sustain the assaults of a 16-game campaign in the NFL."

"The truth is that the Cowboys have enough talent on the top of their roster to compete with some of the best teams in the league. Romo, Ware, Witten, Austin, Ratliff are a very solid "Top 5". Bryant, Lee, Murray, Smith, and Jenkins are a reasonable 6-10 on a roster. But, then the drop-off begins on the roster. And if the season was just 8-10 games long, they would likely be able to hang in there."

"The premise that Romo, Ware, Ratliff, and Witten can drag this team up and down the field with so many passengers is just nonsense. The title contenders in this league are not 5-strong. They are 53-strong."

"This is not a Tony Romo, Jason Garrett, or Rob Ryan issue. They should share in the blame, but this largely remains a Jerry Jones issue. He has built a stadium that can host a Super Bowl. But he sure hasn't built a roster that can play in one."

"Players play. Coaches coach. And the General Manager is fully responsible to make sure his team is 53-strong. Playing a Giants team in a winner-take-all scenario on Sunday Night revealed a similar result that a showdown with the Eagles in 2008 and the Vikings in 2009 demonstrated: This organization is a long way from being where their fans are used to being back in the glory days."
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SHSTE92


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NFL Memes on facebook sees us as a joke:










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mco65


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

40Year Pack Fan wrote:
Dallas94Ware wrote:

Soooo, your theory is, being near a panty store means you can't focus on football? I"m pretty sure everyone on our team has been out of high school for a few years now...


Sorry but that's irrelevant......You could have a store which sell cow manure patties.....My point is, you could go elsewhere to find such.....Some where other than a football stadium....


You could go somewhere else to BUY PIZZA, HOTDOGs, HAMBURGERS.. or JERSEYS.. HATs, everything that is SOLD at EVERY stadium is available somewhere else except for the game itself.. What's your point? If the players are browsing Victoria Secrets just before kickoff you might have a point, if not the only distraction is to the fans..

Victoria Secrets is just something else for the detractors to point out.. it has absolutely ZERO impact on any game... Hell they will probably open up a Chevy Dealership inside the stadium soon and the media will have a field day but the other owners are thinking, damn.. i should have thought of that..
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40Year Pack Fan


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mco65"]
40Year Pack Fan wrote:

Victoria Secrets is just something else for the detractors to point out.. it has absolutely ZERO impact on any game... Hell they will probably open up a Chevy Dealership inside the stadium soon and the media will have a field day but the other owners are thinking, damn.. i should have thought of that..


It all comes down to taking serious the organization you're playing for......Jerry Jones has proven it's all about the bling and money......He is a meglomaniac who runs the team like George Steinbrenner ran the Yankees......He needs to step back and let his people do their jobs w/o the constant hovering and interference........
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

40Year Pack Fan wrote:
It all comes down to taking serious the organization you're playing for......Jerry Jones has proven it's all about the bling and money......He is a meglomaniac who runs the team like George Steinbrenner ran the Yankees......He needs to step back and let his people do their jobs w/o the constant hovering and interference........


To be honest...having a Victoria's Secret in the stadium has no effect on how the Cowboys play.

That said, I do agree and I don't think you will find very many Cowboy fans who disagree that Jerry Jones should step away from football operations, hire a GM and stick to the marketing side of things. Unfortunately, Jerry's ego is so large it won't happen. So, until Jerry passes or he suddenly has an epiphany or Stephen declares his dad insane and locks him up in a mental hospital, we are stuck with Jerry Jones as the GM of the team.
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mco65


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

40Year Pack Fan wrote:

It all comes down to taking serious the organization you're playing for......Jerry Jones has proven it's all about the bling and money......He is a meglomaniac who runs the team like George Steinbrenner ran the Yankees......He needs to step back and let his people do their jobs w/o the constant hovering and interference........


I wont argue with most of that but I take issue with the Cowboy players not taking Jerry or the team seriously??? YOU might not take Jerry seriously, the media may not take him seriously but I don't think you can find one current or ex cowboy player who doesn't take Jerry seriously. That's all just outside noise that has little effect on the outcome of a game.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mco65 wrote:

I wont argue with most of that but I take issue with the Cowboy players not taking Jerry or the team seriously??? YOU might not take Jerry seriously, the media may not take him seriously but I don't think you can find one current or ex cowboy player who doesn't take Jerry seriously. That's all just outside noise that has little effect on the outcome of a game.


Well, to make a simple analogy for you......Let's think of Jerry's players as his biological off-spring.....Jerry goes out and buy his "children" all the luxuries money can buy.....Cars, houses, etc.....Does that automatically mean respect and love will be reciprocated?.....Of course not.....In fact, the exact opposite can very easily be the result.....In a round about way, I think that's what has happened in Dallas.....The players see pass the facade that is Jerry Jones.....
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