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So how is Jonathan Martin doing so far?
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
phinmun wrote:
No offense but the head games some of you guys play inside your conspiracy theories draw away from the points you're making and make it nearly impossible to effectively nail down just what is fact and what is fiction inside your views.


Don't over complicate this just to meet your word count quota ... I didn't identify any parties trying to conspire. I pointed out what I believe looks like a fear of the fan base. And there is no need for you to nail down any fact or fiction because this is my opinion.

phinmun wrote:

Why is it better to discuss such esoteric and ill-defined topics in support of pure conjecture as opposed to meaningful scheme- and performance-oriented points?

You more than anyone seem intent on discussing Jake's limitations but you only hint at apparently meaningful conversations you and Ovaw are having in private.

If you have insight you're welcome to and should display it. It would add credibility to the points you make and raise the level of this forum greatly.


Just because you don't understand my clearly stated views, doesn't mean it's esoteric. Speak for yourself. Everyone clearly sees where I'm coming from. And it's far from ill-defined. I'm talking about the building of this team and identifying value and fit. And All I have used to support my stance is scheme and performance. Is that not defined enough for you ?

And please know that any reference i make to what Ovaw8lover has stated, is a reference to statements he has made for all to read. These where not private conversations. You are making assumptions.
More over, i am not hiding insight. My thoughts on the matter are well documented and old. They have been consistent and have earned it's own credibility. So the forum is none the worse for it. This is still an environment where ideas about our favorite team are welcomed and informative.

phinmun wrote:

These are smart men who run this organization, with jobs to do. They weigh the ups and downs and unfortunately for the fans who don't always appreciate the full dilemma a team is confronted with, there's not a beautiful and simple answer to every little glitch in the building of an organization.

That's why so many plans constructed by well-prepared individuals fail so catastrophically. In the draft. In free agency. In the regular season. In the post-season.

Things go wrong and pieces don't fit. There's no magic in this or any other business, only decisions; sometimes those made between the lesser of two symptoms. The notion that a weakness can become a strength through simple thought and clever slight of hand is rarely, if ever, realized because we just don't live in a world where problems are fixed without hard work and a natural, healthy suffering.


Whatever ... I never said any of this was simple. Don't create notions about simple thought and clever slight of hand and make them mine.

phinmun wrote:

Sometimes however the best move is tolerance and patience. I dare say it seems obvious now that it was more important to replace Columbo with a player like Martin than it was to replace Jake Long. But what of the mutual exclusivity of those two moves?! Every move the franchise has made under Philbin has indicated that there was much thought put into it. We can't simultaneously start a rookie RT and a rookie LT any more than we can simultaneously start two rookies at LG and LT.


I'd like to see where I've said that we should fill our offensive line with Rookies. Funny thing is that our offensive line draft choices have panned out while these so called experienced vets have disappointed or been unlucky. So far in regards to scheme, only Pouncey and Martin properly fit what we are trying to do. I'm not saying this is a code red problem but over time it must be addressed.

Everything else you've written/typed is more unreadable dribble, but because it's repetitive, I am going to dismiss it and say that we will revisit this topic when we either franchise this dude or let him walk for nothing. Because no one had the balls to strike while the iron was hot.



Repeating the same simple point about Jake Long is not making an argument. It's restating a point. An argument would provide future plans and suggestions.


You're frustrated by what I said but only because you have no logical defense for most of my post.

If you can't defend the implications and logical conclusions your point(s) suggest I would think that it might be good for you to develop a more robust and all-inclusive picture which goes beyond just complaining and offers some commentary about what the team can do and some options that we as a franchise have.
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Mercury22


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Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 12787
Location: the 50 yard line
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
Shipping out Jake Long will be yet again, another example of a scheme change pushing out elite talent because it doesn't fit. That, my fellow fish fans, is why we have wallowed in the cellar of the NFL for so long. Every since Don Shula left, really. Yes, there were some decent years since then, but in each regime change we've lost bit talent to scheme change.

I go back time and time again to this. Bum Phillips once said this" Shula can take his'n and beat your'n or he can take your'n and beat his'n." Screw the scheme. Acquire talent. play quality ball with strong fundamentals and win games. Don Shula won with teams with strong passing games, he won with teams that had ran like crazy, and he won with other teams due to sick defense. A great coach should be able to win in many different ways. The search for the scheme that works is killing this team by talent drains every couple of years. Its annoying as hell.


Merc, my friend ... get out your calender and make arrangements to visit south beach this season, because this may be your last opportunity to see Jake Long in a Dolphin uniform before he offends our senses in a Jets one. He is looking like Clark Kent out there and he will do whatever he has to to get to that phone booth where he can look and be paid like superman.

And I would agree with you 100 % about your scheme search theory if it was one coach changing schemes over and over and forcing the roster to fit. But we keep changing coaches and they each have their idea of what is best for the roster. I would have never made these statements under Dan Henning. ANd I was 100% in favor of drafting JAke Long because we where a running team. All of his highlight reels showed him mowing down defenders and getting to the 2nd level on power run plays in a power run scheme. We had been skimping on the OLine for years. But Am I crazy for wanting an LT that can pass protect in an area or get outside for a screen pass ? That's what this offense calls for.



And the reason the coaches keep being changed is because the scheme keeps being changed. Football schemes come and go. Trends are set and then teams all try and catch up by changing to that scheme, meanwhile defenses catch up and learn how to stop a scheme and then another scheme comes along. You either have to be an innovator or you have to find a coach that isn't so tied to a single scheme that he can't adjust. Some teams do that just fine, others, like ours, are chasing their tails for decades trying to install the new fad. We chased the GB OC because he was closely tied the newest scheme that took the league by storm. We are chasing our tail and it sounds like the talent drain is gonna happen even more than it already has.
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dolphinologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 5564
Location: New York
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW didn't think you where capable of under 2000 words. I believe thank yous are in order.

You want future plans. Well they are based on what I would have done in the offseason and that would be to trade this dude while the perception of him was still in tact to the rest of the league. Even though PFF has him ranked as the 21st tackle in 2011 and the ranking has dived to 43 as we converse.
So depending on what I received in return, maybe i would have held off on Egnew in the draft. Or maybe signed a FA that was a better fit for the scheme. Someone that would have allowed us to let Tannehill roll out to the left or run some screens over there. All I know is that the discussion is being taken a lot more seriously now. Everyone is talking money and options like tagging him. But only a select few will acknowledge the fact that he's allowed 16 sacks over his career, but 3 in 4 games this season.

I haven't changed my stance, but instead of being consistent you call it repetitive. I've responded to those who still choose to call him a team need and refuse to acknowledge the conflict between skill set and the current scheme.

Maya Angelou said that when someone shows you who they are, believe them. And I see that same word whore hack that claimed Steve Smith burned a corner that wasn't even covering him. But you ASSumed so because the two teams played each other. How lame. Enjoy your week end Phinmun
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
WOW didn't think you where capable of under 2000 words. I believe thank yous are in order.

You want future plans. Well they are based on what I would have done in the offseason and that would be to trade this dude while the perception of him was still in tact to the rest of the league. Even though PFF has him ranked as the 21st tackle in 2011 and the ranking has dived to 43 as we converse.
So depending on what I received in return, maybe i would have held off on Egnew in the draft. Or maybe signed a FA that was a better fit for the scheme. Someone that would have allowed us to let Tannehill roll out to the left or run some screens over there. All I know is that the discussion is being taken a lot more seriously now. Everyone is talking money and options like tagging him. But only a select few will acknowledge the fact that he's allowed 16 sacks over his career, but 3 in 4 games this season.

I haven't changed my stance, but instead of being consistent you call it repetitive. I've responded to those who still choose to call him a team need and refuse to acknowledge the conflict between skill set and the current scheme.

Maya Angelou said that when someone shows you who they are, believe them. And I see that same word whore hack that claimed Steve Smith burned a corner that wasn't even covering him. But you ASSumed so because the two teams played each other. How lame. Enjoy your week end Phinmun



So.

Why.

Not.

Propose.

A.

Plan?


I know it sucks when you meet people in life that want to move forward but that's what engineers do. We solve problems. We look at facts. We analyze through logical methods that account for uncertainties and we choose a course of action knowing that there are pro's and con's.

We don't type words on the internet because we're on the internet. We look at what we know and what we can do about it. We make difficult choices in difficult times.

That's real life. That's why I respect Jeff Ireland. He engineers a football team. There are tough decisions to be made and when fans who don't appreciate the time and the effort sum it up in one word by calling him a name at halftime...

...the same word you just called me...

...it proves that people working hard will always be confronted by those who would rather sit by and complain and shower those around them with I told you so's.

I know other people read this forum and it's to them that you have to answer for your demeanor.

I've offered respect to this forum and it's inhabitants. I would hope whether people agree with me or not that I'm part of why they come. Hopefully I'm supporting what's good about the forum's environment.

I'm not a liberal but I can see why so many folks seek to protect each other in a world full of highly divisive characters such as yourself. Your motives betray you I think because it's not always cleverly hidden that you enjoy pointless confrontation.

But what happens when it doesn't work? Or when it drives good posters from regularly visiting?

Like her contemporary Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou preached the benefits of inconquerable forces like love and respect through a tremendously influential career in the art of language which is I hope in some way what I bring to this forum.

Whether it's Love, Tolerance, Compassion or Mercy you're talking about, maybe you should investigate what makes you tick. It doesn't seem like you completely understand that yet.
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Fender


Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 904
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:

I'm not a liberal


Doh! You are now dead to him if you werent already.
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dolphinologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 5564
Location: New York
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fender wrote:
phinmun wrote:

I'm not a liberal


Doh! You are now dead to him if you werent already.


OK Fender ... we may disagree, but I must give credit where credit is due. I tip my hat to you, cuz that was very insightful.
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dolphinologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 5564
Location: New York
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:

Like her contemporary Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou preached the benefits of inconquerable forces like love and respect through a tremendously influential career in the art of language which is I hope in some way what I bring to this forum.


Hope for what you want, but it feels like filibustering without pending legislation.
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dolphinologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 5564
Location: New York
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:



So.

Why.

Not.

Propose.

A.

Plan?




Players like Jake Long get moved in the offseason, if at all. The rub is his pending FA. You only move players under contract. That said, I'd let him walk and cut my losses, unless the highest unlikelihood presents itself in the form of a sweetheart deal with a man blocking team.
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dolphinologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 5564
Location: New York
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
maybe you should investigate what makes you tick. It doesn't seem like you completely understand that yet.


Are you serious ?

OK I'll humor you ...

I'm a perspective collector. Added perspective makes me tic. I don't meld with opinions. I hold them firmly by my pinky toe until indisputable fact presents itself. I follow no man. I follow no parties. I apply as much perspective as I can to the scenarios that get my attention and then I stimulate myself in a reasonable direction.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
phinmun wrote:



So.

Why.

Not.

Propose.

A.

Plan?




Players like Jake Long get moved in the offseason, if at all. The rub is his pending FA. You only move players under contract. That said, I'd let him walk and cut my losses, unless the highest unlikelihood presents itself in the form of a sweetheart deal with a man blocking team.





The important question lies in what we do after we lose Jake Long. In order to be comfortable with a decision we must be assured that while it may not be easy to make, that we're making the right decision on a course of action.

General question to ponder: How would losing Jake Long make us a better team in 2014 or 2015? Before you say the predictable thing about a scheme-fitting LT, remember, you also have to find time to replace John Jerry at RG and Richie Incognito at LG. Some have proposed we throw Martin to LT but again, that's a huge risk and one we want to avoid.

We can't go replacing multiple positions in one year because the pieces we're confident in are young and developing, primarily Martin. Multiple rookies along an already young offensive line doesn't work, so you have to account for the pace of development being dictated by a need to stay competitive by maintaining continuity.

You can't go willy-nilly spending high picks on linemen for the next 3 years either. At some point we'd like to see skill position players being brought in as well as a large number of defensive players, particularly those with elite skill-sets that are probably going to have to come from high picks as well.

WR, TE, FS, CB, ILB and DE may all become needs worthy of high picks.

Meanwhile you casually suggest throwing away a solid player and replacing Guards as if it's no problem whatsoever to do that. As if time and the development of other players simultaneously is of no consequence.

There's a lot you have to answer for. Hindsight is no defense. You must consider the impact of losing Jake Long on every move we must then make to compensate for that hole. You must adjust the entire project to accommodate the void you have created. I just want you to provide meaningful discourse on this topic.

Instead of cleverly calling me names or discussing literature you have no intellectual knowledge of, let's talk Miami Dolphins football. I'm inviting you to defend what you're preaching in a real discussion with people here about why your way makes sense down the road.

You need to take a serious look at how many areas need help on this team because while I know you don't think of yourself as one, you are typifying the term average fan here by being as casual as you are about such a hugely impactful topic. This indicates to me that you don't understand the impact of what you're speaking about OR you simply don't want to think that deeply about the problem.
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bpastermack


Joined: 17 Feb 2009
Posts: 13120
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
phinmun wrote:
maybe you should investigate what makes you tick. It doesn't seem like you completely understand that yet.


Are you serious ?

OK I'll humor you ...

I'm a perspective collector. Added perspective makes me tic. I don't meld with opinions. I hold them firmly by my pinky toe until indisputable fact presents itself. I follow no man. I follow no parties. I apply as much perspective as I can to the scenarios that get my attention and then I stimulate myself in a reasonable direction.


I prefer up and down personally, but maybe there are other reasonable directions?

Lighten up guys. Agree to disagree. Let it all play out and in the end maybe somebody will get the honor of saying "I told you so"
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