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Bobby Massie
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Arrow we don't take tackles with bulge, get we took Trent Williams #4 overall in the draft


Trent Williams was thought to be a top ten talent. Massie was thought to be a fourth round talent. You'll spend big bucks on talent. And even then, we made a move for need over value.

Quote:
Arrow we kept Black because of film room for Trent? Come on, we are trying to build a young talented team with depth at most, if not all positions. Willie Smith showed potential last year and could of built on it this year in a redskins uniform. Instead, he's building on it as a Starter in a Raiders uniform


Due to a groin injury to Khalif Barnes:
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/3164/khalif-barnes
Quote:
Barnes has missed the Raiders' past two games, but could be ready to return when Oakland comes off its bye in Week 6. Fill-in Willie Smith has struggled in pass protection in Barnes' absence.


Per the Raiders' NFL.com depth chart, Barnes is now the #1 RT.

Quote:
Good theories Footy and I'm not really saying you are wrong that the coaching staff didn't think te same, but IMO the 1st point contradicts itself and #2 I just disagree with if thats what they were thinking. I'd love to have Trent, Willie and then Compton on the practice squad all growing and developing together foe the next few years, hopefully for the next 8 to 10. Now we don't have that, we have to spend next offseason still focusing on the tackle position early in the draft because we didn't keep Willie to develop.

Jamaal Brown and Polumbus along with the coaches are around to help Trent and other players with Film.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the one praising Polumbus' play earlier? So, how many reps would Smith be getting if Polumbus was the guy on the first team? Would those reps matter all that much? If Polumbus went down, what would be better, a 2nd year UDFA who had 4 games (3 starts) under his belt or a seven year veteran with 84 games (40 starts)? Perhaps having Smith would be good for the long term health of the depth of the offensive line, but would it be better for the growth of Griffin? At the end of the day, I think that was the decision.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've said Polumbus is serviceable as a RT. Yeah, he has moments when he plays well but then sometimes he's awful.

If he plays well I'll say so. I'm not shy about praising a player even if I think he wouldn't and I'm not shy about critiquing a player when he plays badly.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
I've said Polumbus is serviceable as a RT. Yeah, he has moments when he plays well but then sometimes he's awful.

If he plays well I'll say so. I'm not shy about praising a player even if I think he wouldn't and I'm not shy about critiquing a player when he plays badly.


And our critique of Massie is what then?
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
Willie Smith could easily fall into the same category as Stephon Heyer: an overachiever early on who hit his ceiling quickly. One thing we do have at our disposal is a resident Oakland Raiders fan in dante9876. I suspect that he'll be happy to tell us how much of a steal Willie Smith was from us, if that turns out to be the case. Wink Laughing

In any event, you know that I'm a line partisan, so you don't need to preach to me about how we need to invest in the line. That said, it seems to me that they did this offseason. The coaching staff felt that Compton fit better for what we're trying to do than Smith did. Yes, they put Compton on the practice squad, but we are talking about the future.

Believe it or not, this is how Shanahan goes about building the lines. He invests a bunch of low round picks in his right tackles.


To expand with my own thoughts.

The future of this line is being unveiled before our eyes. With the exception of Trent Williams, it is likely that the rest of the line will be filled with mid/late rounders. The current interior line consists of Steiger (4th round), Montgomery (7th round), Chester (2nd round). In my mind, all three should be considered as fill-ins; Steiger could be closer to five more years depending on his knee, so we could see his replacement drafted in 2015.

Josh LeRibeus and Adam Gettis will be groomed to fill-in in the interior, and Compton at right tackle. Of course, we cannot expect all three to become starters, although it is certainly possible if given sufficient time and resources to develop. Chester is likely to remain a starter through 2013, and I could see Montgomery hanging onto his job well into 2013 as LeRibeus nor Gettis will be ready. If we assume that Steiger will re-signed, which he should be as the best interior lineman, then there are no immediate holes to fill.

I find it doubtful that the front office will invest a day two pick on a lineman in the next 2 seasons as four of the offensive line positions should be filled - I expect Jammal to make the 2013 squad - with young reserves developing behind them. Over the next three drafts, I can see as many as 6 day three selections on the offensive line (my gut says closer to 4). Any more and there will be no spot for them.

Considering Polumbus' play this season, along with the success of Steiger in returning from injury, I do not foresee any major changes this off-season. That second and third round picks should be used on the secondary; and if not both picks there, then I would pick a TE as insurance for Fred Davis.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
Woz wrote:
Willie Smith could easily fall into the same category as Stephon Heyer: an overachiever early on who hit his ceiling quickly. One thing we do have at our disposal is a resident Oakland Raiders fan in dante9876. I suspect that he'll be happy to tell us how much of a steal Willie Smith was from us, if that turns out to be the case. Wink Laughing

In any event, you know that I'm a line partisan, so you don't need to preach to me about how we need to invest in the line. That said, it seems to me that they did this offseason. The coaching staff felt that Compton fit better for what we're trying to do than Smith did. Yes, they put Compton on the practice squad, but we are talking about the future.

Believe it or not, this is how Shanahan goes about building the lines. He invests a bunch of low round picks in his right tackles.


To expand with my own thoughts.

The future of this line is being unveiled before our eyes. With the exception of Trent Williams, it is likely that the rest of the line will be filled with mid/late rounders. The current interior line consists of Steiger (4th round), Montgomery (7th round), Chester (2nd round). In my mind, all three should be considered as fill-ins; Steiger could be closer to five more years depending on his knee, so we could see his replacement drafted in 2015.

Josh LeRibeus and Adam Gettis will be groomed to fill-in in the interior, and Compton at right tackle. Of course, we cannot expect all three to become starters, although it is certainly possible if given sufficient time and resources to develop. Chester is likely to remain a starter through 2013, and I could see Montgomery hanging onto his job well into 2013 as LeRibeus nor Gettis will be ready. If we assume that Steiger will re-signed, which he should be as the best interior lineman, then there are no immediate holes to fill.

I find it doubtful that the front office will invest a day two pick on a lineman in the next 2 seasons as four of the offensive line positions should be filled - I expect Jammal to make the 2013 squad - with young reserves developing behind them. Over the next three drafts, I can see as many as 6 day three selections on the offensive line (my gut says closer to 4). Any more and there will be no spot for them.

Considering Polumbus' play this season, along with the success of Steiger in returning from injury, I do not foresee any major changes this off-season. That second and third round picks should be used on the secondary; and if not both picks there, then I would pick a TE as insurance for Fred Davis.


My quibbles:
1. On Jammal Brown: if the Redskins were to cut him, he'd be a $1.65M cap hit ($4.95M pro-ration vs. $3.5M salary). Usually, that would be meaningless, but with the $18M penalty, it would be tough to swallow. However, I could see them making the move anyway. I could also see them making a play for an offensive lineman in the third as well if the value were there.

2. TE insurance? Again, I think that they would look at using a 3rd on a TE if the value was right. If not, I could see them being comfortable with Paulsen and Paul. Honestly, I think they let Davis walk.
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
The future of this line is being unveiled before our eyes. With the exception of Trent Williams, it is likely that the rest of the line will be filled with mid/late rounders. The current interior line consists of Steiger (4th round), Montgomery (7th round), Chester (2nd round). In my mind, all three should be considered as fill-ins; Steiger could be closer to five more years depending on his knee, so we could see his replacement drafted in 2015.

Josh LeRibeus and Adam Gettis will be groomed to fill-in in the interior, and Compton at right tackle. Of course, we cannot expect all three to become starters, although it is certainly possible if given sufficient time and resources to develop. Chester is likely to remain a starter through 2013, and I could see Montgomery hanging onto his job well into 2013 as LeRibeus nor Gettis will be ready. If we assume that Steiger will re-signed, which he should be as the best interior lineman, then there are no immediate holes to fill.

I find it doubtful that the front office will invest a day two pick on a lineman in the next 2 seasons as four of the offensive line positions should be filled - I expect Jammal to make the 2013 squad - with young reserves developing behind them. Over the next three drafts, I can see as many as 6 day three selections on the offensive line (my gut says closer to 4). Any more and there will be no spot for them.

Considering Polumbus' play this season, along with the success of Steiger in returning from injury, I do not foresee any major changes this off-season. That second and third round picks should be used on the secondary; and if not both picks there, then I would pick a TE as insurance for Fred Davis.


My quibbles:
1. On Jammal Brown: if the Redskins were to cut him, he'd be a $1.65M cap hit ($4.95M pro-ration vs. $3.5M salary). Usually, that would be meaningless, but with the $18M penalty, it would be tough to swallow. However, I could see them making the move anyway. I could also see them making a play for an offensive lineman in the third as well if the value were there.

2. TE insurance? Again, I think that they would look at using a 3rd on a TE if the value was right. If not, I could see them being comfortable with Paulsen and Paul. Honestly, I think they let Davis walk.


A. The reason I have Jammal staying is because of that cap hit - provided he plays (and starts) for the latter half of this season, I expect him to be retained. If he's still not healthy, then I think they absorb the cap hit. Ideally, Jammal is healthy to finish the season, and Polumbus signs a deal similar to Will Montgomery during the offseason. It truly could go either way, but if Jammal starts this season, I see him returning along with Polumbus.

Now, I could see an OG drafted in the third round because of the depth of this interior line class, however I have a hard time believing that an OT will be drafted by the FO in the third. My expectations for the 2013 Redskins draft order is mid-round. For the following list, I left off Jered Veldheer and Ryan Harris because they were early in the third, but you can include them if you wish - they were the only exceptions. Third round OT's drafted in the last ten years:

Donald Stephenson - Chiefs (2012)
Lamar Holmes - Falcons (2012)
Jah Reid - Ravens (2011)
Joseph Barksdale - Raiders (2011) with Rams
Robert Brewster - Cowboys (2009) UFL
Oniel Cousins - Ravens (2008)
Mario Henderson - Raiders (2007) UFL
Rashad Butler - Panthers (2006) with Texans
Chris Colmer - Buccaneers (2005) two seasons, deceased
Nick Kaczur - Patriots (2005) last played in 2010
Max Starks - Steelers (2004)
Sean Locklear - Seahawks (2004) with Giants
Wayne Hunter - Seahawks (2003) with Rams
Wade Smith - Dolphins (2003) with Texans
Courtney Van Buren - Chargers (2003) four year career
Jeff Hatch - Giants (2002) two years on a 53

Starks is perennially decent, Kaczur was relatively solid for a 2-3 year stretch, Oniel Cousins is a good G/T reserve, and credit should be given to W.Smith, Locklear and Butler for sticking around. All that said, there really is not much there to work with. Over 10 years, there were a total of 18 OTs taken (I discounted career Guards). I would be happy with a Ryan Harris or Nick Kazcur, but frankly it's a rather unimpressive lot.

You have to think that the resource would be better used by selecting another position based on history - teams do not select OTs in the third, and they typically do not pan out. While Shanahan drafted Ryan Harris, I tend to believe he will only select a G in the third, if he selects an offensive lineman on day 2.

B. Fred Davis insurance

Optimistically, I think Fred Davis returns once he tests the water for another short-term deal and realizes there is little market for his services. If he receives a good deal elsewhere, I expect the FO to let him go. The third round is where you find TEs in the last few years. Jason Witten, Chris Cooley, and Jimmy Graham are part of the club, as is Jermichael Finley, Ed Dickson and Tony Moeaki. It's a pretty good group, and while there are a few busts to be found in the last ~5 drafts among that third round group, there are far more hits.

The young guys of the 2011 and 2012 drafts, I would gladly take any of them for the Redskins squad: Rob Housler in Arizona, Dwayne Allen in Indy and Michael Egnew in Miami.
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