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Henry Melton v. Ndamukong Suh
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Who's the beastliest?
Melton
27%
 27%  [ 14 ]
Suh
72%
 72%  [ 37 ]
Total Votes : 51

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TheVillain112


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Re: Henry Melton v. Ndamukong Suh Reply with quote

LikesHAM wrote:
TheVillain112 wrote:
LikesHAM wrote:
Getting back to the thread topic, Suh looks pretty darn good this year. I would take him in a millisecond over McCoy or any other DT in the league besides Geno Atkins. Suh's ability to play 90% of defensive snaps and be an every down d-lineman would probably put him over Atkins for me. Geno Atkins played less downs last year than Aldon Smith who many people considered to be a specialist pass rusher rather than an every down player..


100% false. Geno Atkins played 752 snaps last season while Aldon Smith played 506: http://www.austinchronicle.com/blogs/sports/2012-06-16/the-nfl-beat-awards-shower/print/

This is probably the 3rd or 4th time, you try to use Geno Atkins sickle cell/lack of snaps as a reason to degrade his impact on the field. Look at the total # of snaps that Geno and Suh actually did play last season and it's negligible over a 16 game season. Geno played 71% of the snaps last season which is more than any other Bengals D-Linemen. I highly doubt Suh played 90% of the snaps.

Put some links to actual numbers or start coming up with some legit reasons instead of making stuff up...


Oops you are right. I got that info from this thread:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=493494

in which YOU specifically state:

TheVillain112 wrote:

Also even though Geno is my favorite player in the NFL, I don't think he's under-rated as well. His sickle cell will keep him from playing more than 500 snaps a season. Aldon Smith who everyone thinks was just a situational pass rusher last season, played more snaps than Geno. He's probably the most efficient D-Linemen in the NFL, but if he can't play more than 500 snaps then I don't think he's under-rated either. There is a reason why the Bengals drafted Still and Thompson...


I should know better than just to take the word of anyone. I'll be sure to take your opinions of Bengals with a grain of salt from now on?


It was wrong, I stated that in another thread shortly after that. The snap count I saw had Geno around 500 when in reality it was in the 700's. I retracted my statement, you should just admit you're wrong as well.

BTW, it's good to know you're just copy/pasting your opinions off of this board...
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LikesHAM


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Re: Henry Melton v. Ndamukong Suh Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:


BTW, it's good to know you're just copy/pasting your opinions off of this board...


Atkins having the Sickle Cell trait came about through the draft process. Not this board.

It could be nitpicking but we are differentiating two great young d-lineman in Suh and Atkins so even the smallest advantage/disadvantage has to be taken into account.

BTW where are you getting your downs played stat? something other than the Austin Chronicle?
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TheVillain112


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:31 am    Post subject: Re: Henry Melton v. Ndamukong Suh Reply with quote

LikesHAM wrote:
TheVillain112 wrote:


BTW, it's good to know you're just copy/pasting your opinions off of this board...


Atkins having the Sickle Cell trait came about through the draft process. Not this board.

It could be nitpicking but we are differentiating two great young d-lineman in Suh and Atkins so even the smallest advantage/disadvantage has to be taken into account.

BTW where are you getting your downs played stat? something other than the Austin Chronicle?


There is an article somewhere I'm trying to find. It listed snaps played for all defensive linemen. IIRC Geno came in 36th in the NFL. I think Justin Smith lead all interior defensive linemen in snaps played with like 950 or some crazy number like that. Most other DT's were in the low 800's so Geno wasn't too far behind...

EDIT: Finally found it: http://www.comcastsportsnet.com/landing?blockID=722220&tagID=476

Geno was #37 for all defensive linemen. So not too bad. Suh wasn't on the list, assuming because of games missed last season...
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24isthelaw


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:51 am    Post subject: Re: Henry Melton v. Ndamukong Suh Reply with quote

LikesHAM wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
LikesHAM wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
Looking to settle a debate from another thread.
This isn't about potential. Suh is clearly the more physically capable of the two. But I argue that since the start of 2011 Melton has been the better player and will remain as such until Suh becomes more consistent as a run defender.

But that's just my opinion. Who you got?


In that same thread, you hype your boy Devin McCourty "on the strength of his rookie year and his success this year" and Suh had an even better rookie year than McCourty did and Suh looks really good this year from what I have seen. Saying Suh was bad last year but then completely ignoring how abysmal McCourty was seems like a pretty one sided view on it. McCourty was so bad that they had him change positions to safety if I remember correctly.
There's a lot less competition for McCourty in the field of CBs who play in 43 base defenses than there is for Suh among 43 interior linemen. It's apples v. oranges.

For Suh, the competition is
Melton
McCoy
Atkins
Mebane
Dareus
Langford
etc.

That's a much better group than what McCourty was up against in that context [basically limited to Haden, DRC and Sherman].


Wait so you are saying that Suh is competing with Kendall Langford?? For what? Langford isn't even remotely close to Suh. Just because he is around the same age doesn't mean he is competition. Langford has shown nothing ever to be mentioned with the top 10 DT's in the NFL. Langford has been in the league 2 years longer and has shown MUCH less than Suh.

And why is McCoy all of a sudden on Suh's level? Suh Outplayed McCoy each of their first two years and the only reason McCoy has more sacks as of now is that he got to play against the worst offensive line in the NFL vs the Cowboys.

Only Geno Atkins is someone that I would consider serious competition for Suh as best young DT (maybe Melton if he plays well until the end of this year) and even Geno has his own weakness with his sickle cell disease. Suh's only weakness is his overaggressiveness to get to the passer. He has no weaknesses physically.

Just because he isn't constantly being hyped by his fans in the game day threads like Melton doesn't mean Suh is somehow getting worse. He is much better than he was last year.


Do you even watch Kendall Langford play? He's a very good player. Same thing Suh has been since his rookie year.
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ArodFanboy


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Melton's the better player right now in my opinion. I honestly think Suh might be the most overrated defensive player I've ever seen. Melton might not be quite as good at getting after the QB, but he's much better against the run and he isn't a hothead. Suh's been living off his college hype since he came out and people won't just admit that he's been a massive disappointment since getting in to the league because of it. I'm not trying to say he's been useless, but were talking about one of the most dominant d-line prospects at the college level to ever come out. He's simply been pretty good his whole career so far, never even close to looking elite to me.
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GSUeagles14


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArodFanboy wrote:
Melton's the better player right now in my opinion. I honestly think Suh might be the most overrated defensive player I've ever seen. Melton might not be quite as good at getting after the QB, but he's much better against the run and he isn't a hothead. Suh's been living off his college hype since he came out and people won't just admit that he's been a massive disappointment since getting in to the league because of it. I'm not trying to say he's been useless, but were talking about one of the most dominant d-line prospects at the college level to ever come out. He's simply been pretty good his whole career so far, never even close to looking elite to me.


He was pretty clearly elite his rookie year. Not looking so bad this year either
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can someone please explain why Atkins is considered great and Melton is just very good, when they have had near identical stats their ENTIRE CAREERS? Not to mention that Melton has done it in fewer snaps. I really don't get it. Nobody scoffs at Atkins being rated #96 in our top 100 list, but I throw a #100 vote at Henry Melton and it becomes a punchline.

And to the person who said Melton isn't the best player on his own line, while everybody is playing exceptionally this year, Melton is pretty clearly the best. I love Pep, Pep is great, Melton has been better this year. Melton is drawing the game planning attn this year. He's an absolute destroyer of offenses.
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TheVillain112


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
Can someone please explain why Atkins is considered great and Melton is just very good, when they have had near identical stats their ENTIRE CAREERS? Not to mention that Melton has done it in fewer snaps. I really don't get it. Nobody scoffs at Atkins being rated #96 in our top 100 list, but I throw a #100 vote at Henry Melton and it becomes a punchline.

And to the person who said Melton isn't the best player on his own line, while everybody is playing exceptionally this year, Melton is pretty clearly the best. I love Pep, Pep is great, Melton has been better this year. Melton is drawing the game planning attn this year. He's an absolute destroyer of offenses.


Well the problem is Melton doesn't get doubled nearly as much. When you have Peppers on the D-Line, he's going to get attention. Geno from about half way into last season is consistently doubled teamed. When Dunlap isn't into the lineup (which is a lot), O-Lines are concentrating on Geno completely. Yet Geno still produces. So for them to have "nearly identical" stats when considering # of snaps and Geno still having a slight edge should definitely favor Geno. That being said I don't think the gap is that much, although I definitely have Geno over Melton.

Anyone know if there is a site that has numbers for percentage of snaps that a player is doubled?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
Can someone please explain why Atkins is considered great and Melton is just very good, when they have had near identical stats their ENTIRE CAREERS? Not to mention that Melton has done it in fewer snaps. I really don't get it. Nobody scoffs at Atkins being rated #96 in our top 100 list, but I throw a #100 vote at Henry Melton and it becomes a punchline.

And to the person who said Melton isn't the best player on his own line, while everybody is playing exceptionally this year, Melton is pretty clearly the best. I love Pep, Pep is great, Melton has been better this year. Melton is drawing the game planning attn this year. He's an absolute destroyer of offenses.


Well the problem is Melton doesn't get doubled nearly as much. When you have Peppers on the D-Line, he's going to get attention. Geno from about half way into last season is consistently doubled teamed. When Dunlap isn't into the lineup (which is a lot), O-Lines are concentrating on Geno completely. Yet Geno still produces. So for them to have "nearly identical" stats when considering # of snaps and Geno still having a slight edge should definitely favor Geno. That being said I don't think the gap is that much, although I definitely have Geno over Melton.

Anyone know if there is a site that has numbers for percentage of snaps that a player is doubled?
I have no problem w/ somebody saying they are both outstanding and even favoring Geno a little, but I don't understand how anyone can justify acting like 1 is on a clear better level than the other. And Melton is getting double teamed...a lot...moreso than Pep this year.
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baconrad3


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Henry Melton v. Ndamukong Suh Reply with quote

LikesHAM wrote:
baconrad3 wrote:

Yeah I totally didn't know that... Rolling Eyes

That just tells you how well McCoy played when he was in last year. And this year has been no different.

Losing Clayborn might hurt a little,,but no more than it would with any other DT losing a premiere DE next to him.


BTW I'd love to see where I've made stuff up Laughing Sig bet that you can't find even 3 examples of that?



Gerald McCoy prior to this year was considered an injury prone player since he had season ending injuries in both his rookie and sophomore campaign. He was NOWHERE as good as you claim he was in the 6 measly games he played last year. He played well at times last year but was never a dominant force along the defensive line as you claim he was. Heck in the offseason there were some threads which asked whether or not he was a bust and how much longer he had to prove himself. Why don't you pull up metrics or something quantifiable to prove your claim that he played so well last year?

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/63158/gerald-mccoy-may-still-live-up-to-billing

Here is an ESPN detailing McCoy's struggles in his first two years in the league and how he still had to prove himself.

You don't need to cling to your ship as it is sinking. You were wrong. Time to move on.

Also in your "Will AJ Green pass Calvin Johnson?" thread, you claim that Calvin Johnson "not so quietly burst onto the scene in 2011" when in reality, Calvin Johnson burst onto the scene in 2008 when he had 78 catches, for 1331 yards, and 12 TDs. So you are wrong about it taking a few years for Calvin Johnson to break out. He broke out in 2008, his second in the league.

Getting back to the thread topic, Suh looks pretty darn good this year. I would take him in a millisecond over McCoy or any other DT in the league besides Geno Atkins. Suh's ability to play 90% of defensive snaps and be an every down d-lineman would probably put him over Atkins for me. Geno Atkins played less downs last year than Aldon Smith who many people considered to be a specialist pass rusher rather than an every down player.

JPP and JJ Watt are the only two young defensive lineman that I, personally, would take above Suh at this point.


Laughing

Man, no wonder people complain about NFL Gen so much. People like you who just don't know how to understand the actual context of statements. Obviously Johnson was known as a great WR before 2011....my no-so-quietly bursting onto the scene I obviously meant that was when he joined the ranks of one of the best receivers in the league. He was not considered one of the best after the 1300 12 TD year. It's all about context, buddy. You clearly have some issues with that. I understand

So kind of ironic you call me out for "making stuff up", when you have done that numerous times in this thread, and when I call you out to give me examples of me doing it...you can't even bring up one. Lmao. Pathetic.

I even PM you , asking you to give me examples..And you don't even respond! You're just sad, bro.

As for JPP and Watt being the only lineman you'd take over Suh...congratulations. That's very nice. It's cute that you buy into overhyped players like an ESPN robot.
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Henry Melton v. Ndamukong Suh Reply with quote

baconrad3 wrote:
LikesHAM wrote:
baconrad3 wrote:

Yeah I totally didn't know that... Rolling Eyes

That just tells you how well McCoy played when he was in last year. And this year has been no different.

Losing Clayborn might hurt a little,,but no more than it would with any other DT losing a premiere DE next to him.


BTW I'd love to see where I've made stuff up Laughing Sig bet that you can't find even 3 examples of that?



Gerald McCoy prior to this year was considered an injury prone player since he had season ending injuries in both his rookie and sophomore campaign. He was NOWHERE as good as you claim he was in the 6 measly games he played last year. He played well at times last year but was never a dominant force along the defensive line as you claim he was. Heck in the offseason there were some threads which asked whether or not he was a bust and how much longer he had to prove himself. Why don't you pull up metrics or something quantifiable to prove your claim that he played so well last year?

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/63158/gerald-mccoy-may-still-live-up-to-billing

Here is an ESPN detailing McCoy's struggles in his first two years in the league and how he still had to prove himself.

You don't need to cling to your ship as it is sinking. You were wrong. Time to move on.

Also in your "Will AJ Green pass Calvin Johnson?" thread, you claim that Calvin Johnson "not so quietly burst onto the scene in 2011" when in reality, Calvin Johnson burst onto the scene in 2008 when he had 78 catches, for 1331 yards, and 12 TDs. So you are wrong about it taking a few years for Calvin Johnson to break out. He broke out in 2008, his second in the league.

Getting back to the thread topic, Suh looks pretty darn good this year. I would take him in a millisecond over McCoy or any other DT in the league besides Geno Atkins. Suh's ability to play 90% of defensive snaps and be an every down d-lineman would probably put him over Atkins for me. Geno Atkins played less downs last year than Aldon Smith who many people considered to be a specialist pass rusher rather than an every down player.

JPP and JJ Watt are the only two young defensive lineman that I, personally, would take above Suh at this point.


Laughing

Man, no wonder people complain about NFL Gen so much. People like you who just don't know how to understand the actual context of statements. Obviously Johnson was known as a great WR before 2011....my no-so-quietly bursting onto the scene I obviously meant that was when he joined the ranks of one of the best receivers in the league. He was not considered one of the best after the 1300 12 TD year. It's all about context, buddy. You clearly have some issues with that. I understand

So kind of ironic you call me out for "making stuff up", when you have done that numerous times in this thread, and when I call you out to give me examples of me doing it...you can't even bring up one. Lmao. Pathetic.

I even PM you , asking you to give me examples..And you don't even respond! You're just sad, bro.

As for JPP and Watt being the only lineman you'd take over Suh...congratulations. That's very nice. It's cute that you buy into overhyped players like an ESPN robot.
Umm, CJ was generally considered the 3rd best WR in the NFL after the 2008 season, if that's not being considered one of the best in the league, Idk what is. Last year he was generally considered the BEST in the NFL.
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rob_shadows


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArodFanboy wrote:
Melton's the better player right now in my opinion. I honestly think Suh might be the most overrated defensive player I've ever seen. Melton might not be quite as good at getting after the QB, but he's much better against the run and he isn't a hothead. Suh's been living off his college hype since he came out and people won't just admit that he's been a massive disappointment since getting in to the league because of it. I'm not trying to say he's been useless, but were talking about one of the most dominant d-line prospects at the college level to ever come out. He's simply been pretty good his whole career so far, never even close to looking elite to me.


I'm sorry but this is just false, I really hate the Lions scheme when it comes to the DTs because it causes misinformation such as this. People watch the Lions and see how effective the trap is against Suh and assume he's not a good run defender. In the Lions defense the entire D-line is told to get to the QB as quickly as possible, they are not told to watch the RB, that is *supposed* to be on the LBers...which unfortunately doesn't always work out very well (although they've been doing better lately). The fact that the D-lineman are always focused 100% on getting to the QB makes traps an obvious as extremely effective way of neutralizing them.

Now, that being said if you really want to see how good Suh is against the run watch the Lions goal line defense. In that situation Suh is no longer told to focus 100% on the QB and is given the freedom to do what he feels he should do (either go after the QB or go after the run) and he's shown very clearly that when given that freedom he is ELITE against the run.

I wish they'd let him do that all the time like Nebraska did but Schwartz and Cunningham are extremely stubborn in sticking to this scheme...it's incredibly frustrating as a Lions fan as IMO (and I know many other Lions fans agree with me) they are holding Suh back from his true potential.
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TheVillain112


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rob_shadows wrote:
In that situation Suh is no longer told to focus 100% on the QB


So explain this to me. If Suh is told to focus 100% on getting to the QB, how come his counterparts are more successful at getting to the QB than he is?
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:
rob_shadows wrote:
In that situation Suh is no longer told to focus 100% on the QB


So explain this to me. If Suh is told to focus 100% on getting to the QB, how come his counterparts are more successful at getting to the QB than he is?
b/c he's doubled and tripled on every play, duh Rolling Eyes
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rob_shadows


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:
rob_shadows wrote:
In that situation Suh is no longer told to focus 100% on the QB


So explain this to me. If Suh is told to focus 100% on getting to the QB, how come his counterparts are more successful at getting to the QB than he is?


THEY AREN'T! Suh is doubled more than any other defensive lineman for the Lions by a very wide margin, last year it worked pretty well...this year he's learning how to deal with it much better and leads the team in sacks despite that fact.
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