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Burleson Declares Calvin > Moss. Is He Right?
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Worm Guts


Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Randy Moss was on 2 of the top 3 scoring offenses of all-time. Both teams increased their scoring by over 200 points from the previous season. That's pretty freaking impressive.
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
Randy Moss was on 2 of the top 3 scoring offenses of all-time. Both teams increased their scoring by over 200 points from the previous season. That's pretty freaking impressive.


Thats very impressive. Those Viking offenses were still much better all-around, even without Moss, than any of the offenses Calvin Johnson has played in. Take Moss' 2000 season (1400 yards 15 TDs) and Johnson's 2008 season (1300 yards 12 TDs) for example: Daunte Culpepper, Robert Smith, Chris Carter, Todd Steussie, Matt Birk, Korey Stringer compared to Dan Orlavsky, Kevin Smith, Shaun McDonald, Jeff Backus, Dominic Raiola, and Gosder Cherilus...

Again, I'm not saying Calvin Johnson is better but consideration needs to be given to the fact that for most of Moss' biggest years he played on pretty stacked offenses. Yea, great WRs make QBs look better, but a good offense helps even a great WR. While it falls short of Moss's best season, I think it is very impressive that Johnson had 1300 yards and 12 TDs in 2008 with the QB trio of Jon Kitna (4 games), an over-the-hill, post-career altering injury Duante Culpepper (5 games) and Dan Orlovsky (7 games). None of those QBs completed more than 56% of their passes and they all had at least as many picks as TDs. Moss had better seasons than that prior to Culpepper, but IMO even an old Jeff George and Randall Cunningham were much better than the guys Calvin had.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
Randy Moss was on 2 of the top 3 scoring offenses of all-time. Both teams increased their scoring by over 200 points from the previous season. That's pretty freaking impressive.


That kinda plays into the myth of Moss. There was another good WR added to that Pats offense that year. But when people talk about Moss and the 2007 Pats, they rarely mention the fact that Wes Welker landed in New England the same year and had a significant impact on that offense and its production.

Not saying you are necessarily guilty of anything. Just saying Welkers omission in that portion of the discussion just helps to build the myth.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
Randy Moss was on 2 of the top 3 scoring offenses of all-time. Both teams increased their scoring by over 200 points from the previous season. That's pretty freaking impressive.


Exactly. Daunte Culpepper was on pace to shatter the single season record books in passing yards and TDs before Moss went down in 2004.

Although Culpepper finished with great stats, it wasnt the same without a 100% Moss and with Moss missing so many games.


If the question is who is the more impressive physical specimen? It's Calvin Johnson, just like Vernon Davis is a more impressive physical specimen than Tony Gonzalez

But if the question is who is the greater WR of all-time, it's decisively Randy Moss.
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BBIB


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
Randy Moss was on 2 of the top 3 scoring offenses of all-time. Both teams increased their scoring by over 200 points from the previous season. That's pretty freaking impressive.


That kinda plays into the myth of Moss. There was another good WR added to that Pats offense that year. But when people talk about Moss and the 2007 Pats, they rarely mention the fact that Wes Welker landed in New England the same year and had a significant impact on that offense and its production.

Not saying you are necessarily guilty of anything. Just saying Welkers omission in that portion of the discussion just helps to build the myth.


And who the heck was Wes Welker before he stepped on the field opposite Randy Moss?

Not saying that Welker hasn't established himself since, but who were defenses focusing on that year?
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBIB wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
Randy Moss was on 2 of the top 3 scoring offenses of all-time. Both teams increased their scoring by over 200 points from the previous season. That's pretty freaking impressive.


That kinda plays into the myth of Moss. There was another good WR added to that Pats offense that year. But when people talk about Moss and the 2007 Pats, they rarely mention the fact that Wes Welker landed in New England the same year and had a significant impact on that offense and its production.

Not saying you are necessarily guilty of anything. Just saying Welkers omission in that portion of the discussion just helps to build the myth.


And who the heck was Wes Welker before he stepped on the field opposite Randy Moss?

Not saying that Welker hasn't established himself since, but who were defenses focusing on that year?


Doesnt matter who Wes Welker was before 2007. What matters is what he has been since landing in New England. With or without Moss. He has been huge for that offense since the day he stepped on the field for the Pats. Anyone trying to deny the substantial impact he made on that offense is kidding himself.

Defenses were focusing on anything and everything and getting killed for it. Defend the long ball and you get killed on the short ball. Defend the short ball, get killed with the long ball. Moss wasn't what made that offense deadly. Brady was. PEEEEE-REEEEE-OD. He we without a doubt what made that offense go. And he did it with the addition of TWO great weapons. Both with polar opposite games, but both with a ton to offer eachother and the offense overall.

We should all understand this by now. But too many want to buy into the myth of Moss. That he somehow made that 2007 Pats offense. As if the jump in numbers from one year to the next was all Moss. Patently false. All of it. Its all myth. Moss was a great receiver. And he did great things. But he was no one man show in New England and was not the only receiver to hit town in 2007.

I mean, the Pats went 14-2 and 13-3 and scored over 32 ppg since Moss left. If Moss is who made that offense go, why is it still going so well without him?
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Uncle Buck


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
Randy Moss was on 2 of the top 3 scoring offenses of all-time. Both teams increased their scoring by over 200 points from the previous season. That's pretty freaking impressive.


That kinda plays into the myth of Moss. There was another good WR added to that Pats offense that year. But when people talk about Moss and the 2007 Pats, they rarely mention the fact that Wes Welker landed in New England the same year and had a significant impact on that offense and its production.

Not saying you are necessarily guilty of anything. Just saying Welkers omission in that portion of the discussion just helps to build the myth.


So Randy Moss is just a myth now? If that's the case, how do you explain all those touchdown catches?

It just kills you to give Moss any credit at all doesn't it?

By the way, if a guy like Wes Welker adds enough to create a "myth of Moss", what happens to the myth of Jerry Rice when you throw in Bill Walsh, Joe Montana, the creation of the West Coast offense, and the entire San Francisco 49ers team that went 15-1 and won the Super Bowl the year BEFORE he was drafted?

And before you even bring it up, don't even mention Bill Belichick, Tom Brady, etc. with the Patriots, because Denny Green and the 1997 Vikings were nowhere near that level before Moss came to town. The year before Moss was drafted, the Vikings went 9-7.
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Worm Guts


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You kind of went overboard there
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Uncle Buck


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
You kind of went overboard there


Sorry Worm. That wasn't directed at you. J Pep and I have had many discussions regarding Randy Moss and Jerry Rice. J Pep seems to have become the president of the Moss Hater's Club. He's the "Anti-NextBigThing". Laughing
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Buck wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
Randy Moss was on 2 of the top 3 scoring offenses of all-time. Both teams increased their scoring by over 200 points from the previous season. That's pretty freaking impressive.


That kinda plays into the myth of Moss. There was another good WR added to that Pats offense that year. But when people talk about Moss and the 2007 Pats, they rarely mention the fact that Wes Welker landed in New England the same year and had a significant impact on that offense and its production.

Not saying you are necessarily guilty of anything. Just saying Welkers omission in that portion of the discussion just helps to build the myth.


So Randy Moss is just a myth now? If that's the case, how do you explain all those touchdown catches?

It just kills you to give Moss any credit at all doesn't it?

By the way, if a guy like Wes Welker adds enough to create a "myth of Moss", what happens to the myth of Jerry Rice when you throw in Bill Walsh, Joe Montana, the creation of the West Coast offense, and the entire San Francisco 49ers team that went 15-1 and won the Super Bowl the year BEFORE he was drafted?

And before you even bring it up, don't even mention Bill Belichick, Tom Brady, etc. with the Patriots, because Denny Green and the 1997 Vikings were nowhere near that level before Moss came to town. The year before Moss was drafted, the Vikings went 9-7.


Never said Moss was a myth. Dont be defensive.

I said numerous times he was a great WR. But when people suggest he was the lone reason for the offensive spike in New England it's a flat out myth. People have tried for years to build Moss up to be more than he is by suggesting he "made" players he didnt and "made offenses go" when he didnt. People are still trying to minimize Brady's role in ressurecting Moss's career as well as Welkers role in the offensive turnaround in NE. Right here. In this thread. As if 5 years of production isnt enough to prove that he was no fluke. He came in and contributed substantially to that 2007 offense. Not because of Moss. But because he was good and fit the system to a tee.
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Last edited by J Pep 4 Step on Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Buck wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
You kind of went overboard there


Sorry Worm. That wasn't directed at you. J Pep and I have had many discussions regarding Randy Moss and Jerry Rice. J Pep seems to have become the president of the Moss Hater's Club. He's the "Anti-NextBigThing". Laughing


What exactly am I saying that you disagree with? I never said Moss didnt deserve any credit. I am saying some people tend to give him more than he is due. Thats all.
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Worm Guts


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Buck wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
You kind of went overboard there


Sorry Worm. That wasn't directed at you. J Pep and I have had many discussions regarding Randy Moss and Jerry Rice. J Pep seems to have become the president of the Moss Hater's Club. He's the "Anti-NextBigThing". Laughing

My post was actually for j pep, you must have squeezed your post in just ahead of mine.
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Uncle Buck


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Uncle Buck wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
You kind of went overboard there


Sorry Worm. That wasn't directed at you. J Pep and I have had many discussions regarding Randy Moss and Jerry Rice. J Pep seems to have become the president of the Moss Hater's Club. He's the "Anti-NextBigThing". Laughing


What exactly am I saying that you disagree with? I never said Moss didnt deserve any credit. I am saying some people tend to give him more than he is due. Thats all.


Sorry buddy, I did overreact. I stopped reading after you used the words "myth of Moss". Embarassed
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uncle Buck wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Uncle Buck wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
You kind of went overboard there


Sorry Worm. That wasn't directed at you. J Pep and I have had many discussions regarding Randy Moss and Jerry Rice. J Pep seems to have become the president of the Moss Hater's Club. He's the "Anti-NextBigThing". Laughing


What exactly am I saying that you disagree with? I never said Moss didnt deserve any credit. I am saying some people tend to give him more than he is due. Thats all.


Sorry buddy, I did overreact. I stopped reading after you used the words "myth of Moss". Embarassed


I had that feeling. You are a quality dude, buck. I dont care what anyone says about ya. Wink
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
Uncle Buck wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
You kind of went overboard there


Sorry Worm. That wasn't directed at you. J Pep and I have had many discussions regarding Randy Moss and Jerry Rice. J Pep seems to have become the president of the Moss Hater's Club. He's the "Anti-NextBigThing". Laughing

My post was actually for j pep, you must have squeezed your post in just ahead of mine.


I can see where some may disagree with what I said to an extant. But I dont think I went overboard anywhere. Care to point out where you think I did? Was it the part where I said Welker had a significant role in the offensive surge of 2007? Where I said Brady made that offense go? Or where I said the offense has been rolling even without Moss?
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