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Adrenaline_Flux


Joined: 19 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you still going to act like Gene hasn't brought in guys to add to the core?

Jury is out on guys from this year (and a few others), but there are a number of guys that have definitively been added to it.

Just regarding starters...

LT Eugene Monroe
The DTs (at least one of them, depending on how you view them)
MLB Paul Posluszny
CB Derek Cox

All valuable core players.

In addition to those guys, there are plenty of guys that should be kept on at least for depth. This roster should NOT be gutted; it should be built upon. There is zero reason to gut it. It isn't aged and despite crisis mode and anti-everything sentimentally charged views, it isn't an enigma containing a bunch of scrubs. Especially considering that more players are allowed in training camp now than in 2009. There's no reason not to let them at least compete.
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mikeyfarley


Joined: 16 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
Are you still going to act like Gene hasn't brought in guys to add to the core?

Jury is out on guys from this year (and a few others), but there are a number of guys that have definitively been added to it.

Just regarding starters...

LT Eugene Monroe
The DTs (at least one of them, depending on how you view them)
MLB Paul Posluszny
CB Derek Cox

All valuable core players.

In addition to those guys, there are plenty of guys that should be kept on at least for depth. This roster should NOT be gutted; it should be built upon. There is zero reason to gut it. It isn't aged and despite crisis mode and anti-everything sentimentally charged views, it isn't an enigma containing a bunch of scrubs. Especially considering that more players are allowed in training camp now than in 2009. There's no reason not to let them at least compete.


If you can actually comprehend what I said, my stance is that he has added less players than years he's been GM(which is 4). Even Gene Smith lovers can barely pick 4 core players, lol. Our DTs suck right now. 4 out of 5 games opposing teams have almost been able to run up the gut on us at will, so no, the DTs aren't core players(especially Alualu, lol).

Even 4 core players in 4 years is pathetic, and the biggest reason were so weak right now. If a new highly qualified GM comes in and wants to get rid of a lot of backup players, I couldn't care less. It would probably be better than any move Gene Smith would make.
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Adrenaline_Flux


Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 20565
Location: The Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said only starters. You had already named 9 and I said I wouldn't count guys from this year (that's another 2-3) so that is about 15-16 out of 22 starters.

Again though, you're twisting everything around to play it into your anti-Gene schtick which you have been doing for four years.

I'm done with this conversation. If you're going to be disrespectful in addition to playing your usual cards (asking me if I comprehend your stance - REALLY?! this isn't even about love or hate for Gene - it's about the completely ludicrous idea that we should hit reset on EVERYTHING and that everything that has happened the past four years has been done by Satan and his demonic minions), it really isn't worth my time to continue on in this pointless matter.

I'll gladly debate people like IAS, DJ, or iPwn for days (which I have done before) because they actually present objective and respectful arguments. You've made it more than clear you can't offer that.
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Tugboat


Joined: 30 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
Are you still going to act like Gene hasn't brought in guys to add to the core?

Jury is out on guys from this year (and a few others), but there are a number of guys that have definitively been added to it.

Just regarding starters...

LT Eugene Monroe
The DTs (at least one of them, depending on how you view them)
MLB Paul Posluszny
CB Derek Cox

All valuable core players.

In addition to those guys, there are plenty of guys that should be kept on at least for depth. This roster should NOT be gutted; it should be built upon. There is zero reason to gut it. It isn't aged and despite crisis mode and anti-everything sentimentally charged views, it isn't an enigma containing a bunch of scrubs. Especially considering that more players are allowed in training camp now than in 2009. There's no reason not to let them at least compete.


Yeah. I don't see any reason at all to completely 'blow it up'. There is a ton of building to do, and i don't think Gene is the guy to do it...but why get rid of players just for the sake of 'blowing it up'? There are definitely guys who probably need to go, but there are also a decent number of useful pieces here, and plenty of guys who are still young enough to contribute as pieces of a rebuild. We're not really talking about a situation where we have a ton of overpaid aging vets on their last legs that need to be cleared out.

I mean, if we're talking about cleaning house and bringing in a new GM, etc. after 4 years...we're clearly after a ~3-4 year sort of 'retool'. Which doesn't seem completely unreasonable in today's NFL. But i don't think you're going to do that by jettisoning anyone and everyone 'just 'cause'.


But it really does look like it's time for a change at the top.
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Adrenaline_Flux


Joined: 19 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tugboat wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
Are you still going to act like Gene hasn't brought in guys to add to the core?

Jury is out on guys from this year (and a few others), but there are a number of guys that have definitively been added to it.

Just regarding starters...

LT Eugene Monroe
The DTs (at least one of them, depending on how you view them)
MLB Paul Posluszny
CB Derek Cox

All valuable core players.

In addition to those guys, there are plenty of guys that should be kept on at least for depth. This roster should NOT be gutted; it should be built upon. There is zero reason to gut it. It isn't aged and despite crisis mode and anti-everything sentimentally charged views, it isn't an enigma containing a bunch of scrubs. Especially considering that more players are allowed in training camp now than in 2009. There's no reason not to let them at least compete.


Yeah. I don't see any reason at all to completely 'blow it up'. There is a ton of building to do, and i don't think Gene is the guy to do it...but why get rid of players just for the sake of 'blowing it up'? There are definitely guys who probably need to go, but there are also a decent number of useful pieces here, and plenty of guys who are still young enough to contribute as pieces of a rebuild. We're not really talking about a situation where we have a ton of overpaid aging vets on their last legs that need to be cleared out.

I mean, if we're talking about cleaning house and bringing in a new GM, etc. after 4 years...we're clearly after a ~3-4 year sort of 'retool'. Which doesn't seem completely unreasonable in today's NFL. But i don't think you're going to do that by jettisoning anyone and everyone 'just 'cause'.


But it really does look like it's time for a change at the top.


Boom. (edit: well that was puntastic)

If some things need to change (and a 1-4 record with numerous blowouts suggests they indeed do), so be it. But to completely change everything would set us back further than what is necessary and would just add to our issues.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikeyfarley wrote:
Most of those guys were backup level guys that were easily replaceable, or they were over the hill starters that would have left the team in a year or two anyway.

...

a real GM wouldn't get rid of any contributing players until a new guy is on the roster that has proven he can fill that role better than the old player.


So which was it? Were they replaceable guys and guys that were done soon, or were they guys that Gene shouldn't have been gotten rid of until things were in place?
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
Are you still going to act like Gene hasn't brought in guys to add to the core?

Jury is out on guys from this year (and a few others), but there are a number of guys that have definitively been added to it.

Just regarding starters...

LT Eugene Monroe
The DTs (at least one of them, depending on how you view them)
MLB Paul Posluszny
CB Derek Cox

All valuable core players.

In addition to those guys, there are plenty of guys that should be kept on at least for depth. This roster should NOT be gutted; it should be built upon. There is zero reason to gut it. It isn't aged and despite crisis mode and anti-everything sentimentally charged views, it isn't an enigma containing a bunch of scrubs. Especially considering that more players are allowed in training camp now than in 2009. There's no reason not to let them at least compete.


Dawan Landry
Dwight Lowery
Bryan Anger
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jagman777


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monroe, Knighton, Poz, Cox, Landry, Lowery, Anger

Solid group of players. No Difference makers.



It's not a whiff
I love Gene Smiff..

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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also this:

mikeyfarley wrote:
If you look at how many starters were on the team the year before Shack, and still on the team starting 3 years later, there was the same amount of change as there was between Shack's final season and the starters last year.


These are the guys still on the roster 6 years after Shack Harris got there, Shack's last year:

David Garrard
Fred Taylor
Brad Meester
Vince Manuwai
Chris Naeole
Maurice Williams
Dennis Norman
John Henderson
Rob Meier
Paul Spicer
Joe Zelenka

Which is one player more than was on the team still only 3 years after Gene's rebuild.
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Adrenaline_Flux


Joined: 19 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jagman777 wrote:
Monroe, Knighton, Poz, Cox, Landry, Lowery, Anger

Solid group of players. No Difference makers.



It's not a whiff
I love Gene Smiff..


Trollololol
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mikeyfarley


Joined: 16 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Also this:

mikeyfarley wrote:
If you look at how many starters were on the team the year before Shack, and still on the team starting 3 years later, there was the same amount of change as there was between Shack's final season and the starters last year.


These are the guys still on the roster [b]6 years after Shack Harris got there[/b], Shack's last year:

David Garrard
Fred Taylor
Brad Meester
Vince Manuwai
Chris Naeole
Maurice Williams
Dennis Norman
John Henderson
Rob Meier
Paul Spicer
Joe Zelenka

Which is one player more than was on the team still only 3 years after Gene's rebuild.


You apparently have no clue which players fit the criteria you yourself made up, that has nothing to do with what I said, lol.

Dennis Norman was on the Seahawks in Harris' 1st year as GM in 03, as in not on the team. Nice try.

Vince Manuwai was drafted by Harris in 03 in Harris' 1st year as GM, he was not on the team before Harris was here.

Chris Naeole never played a down for the Jags after 07, so no, he wasn't on the team 6 years after Harris' 1st year(which would be 2009).

Paul Spicer was also not on the team in 09, which is the year that would have been 6 years since Harris "got here".

You couldn't disprove anything I said, then you made up some sham list of players that is completely false, which doesn't really prove any kind of point you think you have.
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Adrenaline_Flux


Joined: 19 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harris' last year was 2008 and all of those guys were on the roster in 2008.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikeyfarley wrote:
You apparently have no clue which players fit the criteria you yourself made up, that has nothing to do with what I said, lol.


So you only want guys who were starters three years later? That's a pretty ridiculous box you're trying to argue, but okay.

Garrard
Taylor
Brady
Naeole
Meester
Williams (starter at a point after the three years, if you refuse to acknowledge that, the point you're trying to argue is a sham)
Henderson
Stroud
Spicer
Ayodele
Darius
Hanson
Zelenka

13 out of 25 starters at their position: 52%

vs:

Meester
Mathis
Jones
Scobee
Smith
Jones Drew
Lewis
Mincey
Nwaneri

9 out of 25 starters at their position: 36%

Quote:
Chris Naeole never played a down for the Jags after 07, so no, he wasn't on the team 6 years after Harris' 1st year(which would be 2009).

Paul Spicer was also not on the team in 09, which is the year that would have been 6 years since Harris "got here".


So..

09 season
10 season
11 season

is three years, based on your previous post, but

03 season
04 season
05 season
06 season
07 season
08 season

isn't 6 years?

And yes, my point did prove something, you're just refusing to acknowledge it. The full roster rebuild that Gene has tried to do in three and now 4 years is equal to what Shack did in 6 years.
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AngryPirate


Joined: 29 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fire the entire FO and coaches and everyone that works the website. Scrub the walls burn all the old furniture tear up the old floors. Start fresh rid this building of the old stink. I disagree on gutting the roster keep it and work with it. None of the stupid crap gene did when he got here and cast everyone on their way.
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charles shelton


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's pretty depressing when the state of the franchise boils down to the argument of who sucks worse...shak harris or gene smith. Can we just agree that right now, we are one of the worst teams in the nfl, certainly in the bottom 25%, and there doesn't seem to be the talent level here to suggest that sad fact is going to change anytime soon.

two undeniable huge weaknesses I think are obvious to anyone who watches us play...

-we have the worst passing offense in the league. i'll leave it to others to figure out if it's the qb, the wrs, the o-line, the coaches, or some combination of some or all of those factors.
-we have one of the worst pass rushing defenses in the league.

none of the numerous attempts by management to address either of these two glaring weaknesses have had a positive impact. instead...it could be argued that we are noticeably worse in each of these areas (as if that were possible). And it's not like we're remarkably good at anything else that might help mitigate these two major weaknesses.

I'm no expert, but tell me that I'm missing something here. This team sucks arse and I certainly don't see anything to suggest that improvement is on the horizon. I'll be honest, my hopes for the season now aren't for some major turnaround, but that we continue to suck bad for the remainder of the season and get the #1 pick, not because I don't want a major turnaround, but that I just don't believe it's possible that we can improve to anything beyone 5-6 wins, and quite frankly, even that would be a miracle.

-charles
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