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Lawrence Timmons All-22
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lionslicer


Joined: 06 Nov 2010
Posts: 1809
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelcurtain29 wrote:
Timmons tackling has gotten to be awful... It's downgraded since 2010. What's with him?


He's trying to make big hits instead of wrapping up. He's lost a lot of his fundamentals, and I'm not sure whether to blame him or the coaching staff.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 9947
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Lawrence Timmons All-22 Reply with quote

ok, finished the all-22

short version for now

1. 14 positive plays, 6 negative plays, 3 plays where he graded both positive (for pressuring/penetrating the backfield) and a negative (for missing a wide open tackle)

2. Total score +7.0

3. 6 missed tackles/overpursuit plays, 2 "horree sheeet!!!" plays where he just blew stuff up, and 2 other beastly plays

The scheme this week was pure beauty. I've been critical of LeBeau for being predictable and boring. He moved dudes all over the place. We had 5 guys on the line in a 2-point stance, multiple times Timmons blew through the LoS unblocked because of blitz packages that were beautifully executed.

Without focusing on them, Ziggy and Worilds did dman well. Ziggy is getting a lot of time @ NT in either 1-T or 0-T and is noticeably more effective inside in that nickel / ranger package.

3rivers wrote:
Keth,

might be asking too much, but how many of the plays would you say were the fault of the eagles not picking it up?


I had Timmons blowing through unblocked on 5 separate plays, but his 2 best plays, he just straight up beasted somebody. On the play where he flushed Vick to Vick's right and chased him to the sideline, Timmons steamrolled McCoy. Just straight out flattened him. On the strip sack, he stunted with Harrison and spun off Evan Mathis and nailed Vick forcing the fumble. Great play, great balance and leverage, great awareness. Damn impressive.

3rivers wrote:
Timmons had a good game, but the FF was Vick's fault


disagree. Timmons beat a LG that a lot of people think had the best season in the NFL last year.

Beat him 1 on 1.

I'm critical as hell of Timmons and I don't mind opening my big trap about it. Timmons' success was in large part due to scheme, but make no mistake, Timmons made plays and beat guys 1 on 1, straight up

3rivers wrote:
after a while you think they would learn? Then if we have a look on their page from this site, you think their fans have the OL we had Laughing Doesn't sound like they are happy with the OL, kinda like some of us Embarassed were/was/ or maybe is Crying or Very sad


nonsense. The Eagles have 3x the athleticism on their OL. LeBeau broke out his 'mad genius' hat. Best blitz packages I've seen the Steelers run in ages, truth be told. I called out LeBeau and Timmons repeatedly. They shut my mouth rather definitively.

Let's hope that continues.

at23steelers wrote:
@keth: I'd rather him over pursue than be invisible on the field. Btw, someone mentioned something interesting that Timmons is more effective when Polamalu is in the lineup. Did he have a higher grade before Poli got injured?


nope. didn't even notice when Troy was out, focusing on Timmons. What I noticed is that Ryan Mundy is absolutely out of his league and should not be in the NFL. He hits hard when he is able to connect, but he takes the worst angles and is simply flapping in the breeze out there.

treat88 wrote:

I think they don't trust Mundy and the Worilds/Carter combo and ask Timmons to play less aggressively to help cover their shortcomings...which he isn't very good at.


this is a valid opinion, I wonder if this is true myself. I think it's the wrong attitude. Let people do what they do. Take the damn chains off them. Put a leash on guys like Timmons, you put a muzzle on him, he can't do a damn thing

steelcurtain29 wrote:
Timmons tackling has gotten to be awful... It's downgraded since 2010. What's with him?


i honestly think it's due to a loss of agility becuase of his weight gain. He is about 15 lbs heavier, and it really seems to reduce his agility. It's not "form tackling" he lacks. It's control. He flies in on plays and simply misses due to a lack of agility and flexibility. He's stiff. You can see it in his pass rush, dude can't bend

armsteeld wrote:
Timmons tackling doesnt suck. Troy misses 3x as many tackles.


pure rubbish. Troy didn't miss 18 tackles in a game at any point in time. Timmons has been averaging 4-6 per game.

Criticizing Troy for missing tackles is like criticizing Ozzie Smith for making a few errors when he has no business being within 5 yards of the play. When your range encompasses the entire field, you open yourself up to more errors. Timmons' range is 1/5 what Troy's is. Troy has to make up for a serious lack of talent in that secondary. When Clark is there, it means Troy is allowed to be Troy, rather than forcng him to play contained.
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes a big difference to have 92 in the lineup. Just having Debo on the field makes people nervous...on that sack strip Debo garnered a lot of attention with Vick pushing up the middle due to concern of pressure from 92, Timmons did a great job to break off his man and go right after Vick almost as if he was Debo like and get the strip. Great play.

Agree also that there is little issue with Timmons form tackling as much as it has always been lack of control or timidness.

In the little I did see to this point on the Replay he was shooting like a missle , very decisive and dare I say instinctive. Perhaps he prepared like he needs to with the bye week.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustPlainNasty wrote:
In the little I did see to this point on the Replay he was shooting like a missle , very decisive and dare I say instinctive. Perhaps he prepared like he needs to with the bye week.


JPN, this is a really excellent point. I really noticed it on a particular run play out wide where Tmmons read IMMEDIATELY and reacted, beat the offensive line to the edge, and took Shady out for a 3 yard loss. It was one of those things where you go DAYAAM....it was one of the few plays I graded as a 1.5 for him.

as soon as the all-22 review gets posted on steelerfury, I'll post the link here.

as critical as I've been of LeBeau, his gameplan vs. the Eagles was goddamned beautiful. Moved our guys all around, had Timmons on the line, Foote blowing up OL on the blitz to create wide open rush lanes, Ziggy inside rushing from the 0 or 1T as our new de facto nickel NT...

that was a good effort.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good breakdown, keth...as usual.

Timmons has his flaws and always will. I dont expect him to be anything like say...Patrick Willis...and I think its unrealistic and unfair to expect anything like that either or compare Timmons to Willis....but I do think if put in the right situations, and he becomes more consistent, Timmons can still be a great player for years to come. Maybe not elite, but still very good and one of the better players at his position.

Timmons IMO is a splash guy. If you cut him loose he can make plays. if you try ti play him conservatively, thats when you see him get in trouble. To a lesser extent, you could say the same things about Troy.
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
In the little I did see to this point on the Replay he was shooting like a missle , very decisive and dare I say instinctive. Perhaps he prepared like he needs to with the bye week.


JPN, this is a really excellent point. I really noticed it on a particular run play out wide where Tmmons read IMMEDIATELY and reacted, beat the offensive line to the edge, and took Shady out for a 3 yard loss. It was one of those things where you go DAYAAM....it was one of the few plays I graded as a 1.5 for him.

as soon as the all-22 review gets posted on steelerfury, I'll post the link here.

as critical as I've been of LeBeau, his gameplan vs. the Eagles was goddamned beautiful. Moved our guys all around, had Timmons on the line, Foote blowing up OL on the blitz to create wide open rush lanes, Ziggy inside rushing from the 0 or 1T as our new de facto nickel NT...

that was a good effort.


I actually just went back to watch the REplay from the beginning. I came on to actually post about that play specifically and the blitz where he crushed McCoy.

I thought the same exact thing, that it was obvious he recognized the play and did not hesitate at all. Makes me wonder if his preparedness has been lacking or if he may struggle with the short time to get prepared. Perhaps all the previous moving around holds him back in that regard. I would say that his natural instincts are still not great but that perhaps his preparedness and awareness could elevate his game along with his physical abilities. He does still overrun plays, I used to get in trouble with the same thing like that blitz in the 1st that he missed, its hard to realize that slowing/breaking down will actually be more effective than going going balls out/ out of control, a trait usually indicative of someone not comfortable with their understanding. (Same thing happens as a Craps/Dice Dealer , and many other fields I suppose)

The other play where he blew up Shady on the blitz is the exact thing I have been looking for/from him since day 1. I almost exploded when I saw it, beautiful!!! I could care less if he has any sacks but if he disrupts the play like that every time he'd be one of my favorite players rather than have me shaking me head most of the time. Too often his blitzes and his technique are like taking a player off the field for us, as if we are playing with 10 rather than 11.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Good breakdown, keth...as usual.

Timmons has his flaws and always will. I dont expect him to be anything like say...Patrick Willis...and I think its unrealistic and unfair to expect anything like that either or compare Timmons to Willis....


it chaps my hide that we pay him like SF pays Willis though. I admit, that annoys me

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Timmons IMO is a splash guy. If you cut him loose he can make plays. if you try ti play him conservatively, thats when you see him get in trouble. To a lesser extent, you could say the same things about Troy.


yes yes, 1000 times yes. Exactly.


JustPlainNasty wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
JustPlainNasty wrote:
In the little I did see to this point on the Replay he was shooting like a missle , very decisive and dare I say instinctive. Perhaps he prepared like he needs to with the bye week.


JPN, this is a really excellent point. I really noticed it on a particular run play out wide where Tmmons read IMMEDIATELY and reacted, beat the offensive line to the edge, and took Shady out for a 3 yard loss. It was one of those things where you go DAYAAM....it was one of the few plays I graded as a 1.5 for him.

as soon as the all-22 review gets posted on steelerfury, I'll post the link here.

as critical as I've been of LeBeau, his gameplan vs. the Eagles was goddamned beautiful. Moved our guys all around, had Timmons on the line, Foote blowing up OL on the blitz to create wide open rush lanes, Ziggy inside rushing from the 0 or 1T as our new de facto nickel NT...

that was a good effort.


I actually just went back to watch the REplay from the beginning. I came on to actually post about that play specifically and the blitz where he crushed McCoy.

I thought the same exact thing, that it was obvious he recognized the play and did not hesitate at all. Makes me wonder if his preparedness has been lacking or if he may struggle with the short time to get prepared. Perhaps all the previous moving around holds him back in that regard. I would say that his natural instincts are still not great but that perhaps his preparedness and awareness could elevate his game along with his physical abilities. He does still overrun plays, I used to get in trouble with the same thing like that blitz in the 1st that he missed, its hard to realize that slowing/breaking down will actually be more effective than going going balls out/ out of control, a trait usually indicative of someone not comfortable with their understanding. (Same thing happens as a Craps/Dice Dealer , and many other fields I suppose)


these are really good points. I do think he's probably not the brightest bulb in the drawer, and possibly needs both
a) more preparation
b) Less responsibility

this isn't necessarily a knock on him. Not everyone can be Jack Lambert and read the QB's mind. However, more preparation could enable better performance, and perhaps that's what we saw

or not. Who knows. Razz

JPN wrote:

The other play where he blew up Shady on the blitz is the exact thing I have been looking for/from him since day 1. I almost exploded when I saw it, beautiful!!! I could care less if he has any sacks but if he disrupts the play like that every time he'd be one of my favorite players rather than have me shaking me head most of the time. Too often his blitzes and his technique are like taking a player off the field for us, as if we are playing with 10 rather than 11.


yep. you hit the nail on the head. EXPLODE....slam into somebody, be physical, stop being tentative. Earlier in the game, he 'held back' a bit on a blitz and Shady chipped him as a result. You could see him hesitate just before contact. This time, WHAM....lowers the shoulder and knocks Shady into a backward roll. HELL YEAH...that's what you gotta show!
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