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Jamal Charles vs Arian Foster vs RayRice v LaSeanMccoy v MJD
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bmore4life815


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArrowheadRage58 wrote:
bmore4life815 wrote:
simonwayne wrote:
1. Charles
2. Peterson

3. MJD
4. Rice
5. McCoy

If you really want to believe this, go right ahead. Just don't EVER complain again when your fanbase continues to get picked on.


Yeah, dude, Peterson has had the better career, but to say it's laughable to rank Charles ahead of Peterson right now is ignorant. They are both pretty much my favorite players in the league. They are really the only two with the ability to take their team somewhere w/out decent QB play. Right now Charles is playing better and since you can't say it's a one year fluke, why doesn't he get the edge?

Charles is playing better? I don't see it. Let's break them down:

Charles
Week 1 (ATL): I actually watched bits of this game. Wasn't too impressed.
Week 3 (NO): Torched them; had a jaw-dropping statline.
Week 4 (SD): So-so. Broke a long TD, and accounted for another one, but turned it over twice within his first four carries.
Week 5 (BAL): Got off to a fabulous start, but he was a complete non-factor in the second half.

Peterson
Week 1 (Jac): Outstanding game considering he didn't even suit up during the preseason.
Week 2 (IND): Half of his carries went for 5 yards or more. Monster game? Certainly not, but a steady and productive one.
Week 3 (SF): 107 total yards against a defense widely regarded as the best in the league? Not too bad.
Week 4 (DET): Another beastly effort from him. Broke 10 tackles; 71 yards came after initial contact.
Week 5 (TEN): Hurt his ankle on the first carry of the game. Still finished with relatively solid numbers.

So, no, I strongly disagree with that.
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmore4life815 wrote:

Charles is playing better? I don't see it. Let's break them down:

Charles
Week 1 (ATL): I actually watched bits of this game. Wasn't too impressed.
Week 3 (NO): Torched them; had a great game.
Week 4 (SD): So-so. Broke a long TD, and accounted for another one, but turned it over twice within his first four carries.
Week 5 (BAL): Got off to a fabulous start, but he was a complete non-factor in the second half.

Peterson
Week 1 (Jac): Outstanding game considering he didn't even suit up during the preseason.
Week 2 (IND): Half of his carries went for 5 yards or more. Monster game? Certainly not, but a steady and productive one.
Week 3 (SF): 107 total yards against a defense widely regarded as the best in the league? Not too bad.
Week 4 (DET): Another beastly effort from him. Broke 10 tackles; 71 yards came after initial contact.
Week 5 (TEN): Hurt his ankle on the first carry of the game. Still finished with relatively solid numbers.

So, no, I strongly disagree with that.


Not that I agree with ranking Charles over Peterson (I certainly do not), it is really easy to make an argument like this when you take the glass half full approach on every game of one player and a glass half empty approach on every game of the other player. I could do the exact same thing by reversing how I look at each game and it still wouldn't help prove anything.
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bmore4life815


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
bmore4life815 wrote:

Charles is playing better? I don't see it. Let's break them down:

Charles
Week 1 (ATL): I actually watched bits of this game. Wasn't too impressed.
Week 3 (NO): Torched them; had a great game.
Week 4 (SD): So-so. Broke a long TD, and accounted for another one, but turned it over twice within his first four carries.
Week 5 (BAL): Got off to a fabulous start, but he was a complete non-factor in the second half.

Peterson
Week 1 (Jac): Outstanding game considering he didn't even suit up during the preseason.
Week 2 (IND): Half of his carries went for 5 yards or more. Monster game? Certainly not, but a steady and productive one.
Week 3 (SF): 107 total yards against a defense widely regarded as the best in the league? Not too bad.
Week 4 (DET): Another beastly effort from him. Broke 10 tackles; 71 yards came after initial contact.
Week 5 (TEN): Hurt his ankle on the first carry of the game. Still finished with relatively solid numbers.

So, no, I strongly disagree with that.


Not that I agree with ranking Charles over Peterson (I certainly do not), it is really easy to make an argument like this when you take the glass half full approach on every game of one player and a glass half empty approach on every game of the other player. I could do the exact same thing by reversing how I look at each game and it still wouldn't help prove anything.

Glass half-empty? I think I was pretty objective here. I didn't even include Charles' performance in the first half from week 2.

I certainly appreciate your honesty regarding where Charles stands as a RB, though. He's elite (easily top 5; possibly top 3), but not the best.
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Last edited by bmore4life815 on Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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C0LTSFAN4L1F3


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arian's vision>>>>>>>>>>Charles's vision

Idk if Arian's is better than AD's but his is easily better than anyone else's in the league. Im not sure that Foster would really be doing a whole lot right now without his amazing vision
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmore4life815 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
bmore4life815 wrote:

Charles is playing better? I don't see it. Let's break them down:

Charles
Week 1 (ATL): I actually watched bits of this game. Wasn't too impressed.
Week 3 (NO): Torched them; had a great game.
Week 4 (SD): So-so. Broke a long TD, and accounted for another one, but turned it over twice within his first four carries.
Week 5 (BAL): Got off to a fabulous start, but he was a complete non-factor in the second half.

Peterson
Week 1 (Jac): Outstanding game considering he didn't even suit up during the preseason.
Week 2 (IND): Half of his carries went for 5 yards or more. Monster game? Certainly not, but a steady and productive one.
Week 3 (SF): 107 total yards against a defense widely regarded as the best in the league? Not too bad.
Week 4 (DET): Another beastly effort from him. Broke 10 tackles; 71 yards came after initial contact.
Week 5 (TEN): Hurt his ankle on the first carry of the game. Still finished with relatively solid numbers.

So, no, I strongly disagree with that.


Not that I agree with ranking Charles over Peterson (I certainly do not), it is really easy to make an argument like this when you take the glass half full approach on every game of one player and a glass half empty approach on every game of the other player. I could do the exact same thing by reversing how I look at each game and it still wouldn't help prove anything.

Glass half-empty? I think I was pretty objective here. I didn't even include Charles' performance in the first half from week 2.

I certainly appreciate your honesty regarding where Charles stands as a RB, though. He's elite (easily top 5; possibly top 3), but not the best.


Well I'm just saying, to blame Charles for his struggles in the 2nd half against Baltimore is silly. That was to be expected when we continued to refuse to pass the ball. It had nothing to do with Charles. You use the fact that Peterson was injured yet started well to prop him up, but fail to mention that this was Charles first serious action since his ACL injury as well. Calling him so-so at San Diego is definitely a discredit given how thoroughly the rest of our offense struggled that game (if you only meant he was so-so BECAUSE of the two fumbles, then I would agree, I will add that.) And you also leave out some facts that should be worth including, like that Charles is actually second for all RB in yards after contact, and I would argue he has played a much tougher defensive schedule than Peterson, playing San Diego, Atlanta, and Baltimore, who are all formidable defenses, while I only really think San Fran from AP's schedule is above average. The light things are put in make a huge difference. Not to say you're biased or anything, I just felt you left out some key things to Charles's credit. IMO though, these are the two best pure runners in the NFL right now. Guys like Rice, MJD, and Foster offer a bit more in the total package than either Peterson or Charles, but few can match Charles's vision and speed, or Peterson's overall athleticism and balance.

I'm glad to see someone from another fan base acknowledging that Charles is elite. Too many still rely on overused rhetoric to argue that he still hasn't proven it in this way or that way.
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JammerHammer21


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All + AP are the top 6 backs. I'd go Foster, Rice, McCoy, Charles, AP, MJD.
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:
Arian's vision>>>>>>>>>>Charles's vision

Idk if Arian's is better than AD's but his is easily better than anyone else's in the league. Im not sure that Foster would really be doing a whole lot right now without his amazing vision


Way too many >>>>>>s in there. Foster may have better vision, but they're pretty damn close at the top of the list in that trait.

Consider this. Over the past 3 years, in the Chiefs offense, Charles averages 6.1 ypc. Over that same timespan, the backs we've used have included:

Thomas Jones at 3.7 ypc (2010) and 3.1 ypc (2011)
Jackie Battle at 3.1 ypc (2010) and 4.0 ypc (2011)
Dexter McCluster at 3.7 ypc (2010) and 4.5 ypc (2011)
Peyton Hillis at 4.4 ypc

This is with the exact same o-lines, with a wide variety of backs ranging from speed (McCluster, Battle) and power (Hillis, Battle.) Yet he averages about a full 2 yards per carry more than the rest of the backs KC has had over the past 3 years. That's all in his ability to find running lanes and see the holes the offensive line is opening up for him.
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JammerHammer21


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:
Arian's vision>>>>>>>>>>Charles's vision

Idk if Arian's is better than AD's but his is easily better than anyone else's in the league. Im not sure that Foster would really be doing a whole lot right now without his amazing vision


Way too many >>>>>>s in there. Foster may have better vision, but they're pretty damn close at the top of the list in that trait.

Consider this. Over the past 3 years, in the Chiefs offense, Charles averages 6.1 ypc. Over that same timespan, the backs we've used have included:

Thomas Jones at 3.7 ypc (2010) and 3.1 ypc (2011)
Jackie Battle at 3.1 ypc (2010) and 4.0 ypc (2011)
Dexter McCluster at 3.7 ypc (2010) and 4.5 ypc (2011)
Peyton Hillis at 4.4 ypc

This is with the exact same o-lines, with a wide variety of backs ranging from speed (McCluster, Battle) and power (Hillis, Battle.) Yet he averages about a full 2 yards per carry more than the rest of the backs KC has had over the past 3 years. That's all in his ability to find running lanes and see the holes the offensive line is opening up for him.


Something about Speed, Battle doesn't fit. Wink Unless you meant Jones, but he ain't speed either. Laughing
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bmore4life815


Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
bmore4life815 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
bmore4life815 wrote:

Charles is playing better? I don't see it. Let's break them down:

Charles
Week 1 (ATL): I actually watched bits of this game. Wasn't too impressed.
Week 3 (NO): Torched them; had a great game.
Week 4 (SD): So-so. Broke a long TD, and accounted for another one, but turned it over twice within his first four carries.
Week 5 (BAL): Got off to a fabulous start, but he was a complete non-factor in the second half.

Peterson
Week 1 (Jac): Outstanding game considering he didn't even suit up during the preseason.
Week 2 (IND): Half of his carries went for 5 yards or more. Monster game? Certainly not, but a steady and productive one.
Week 3 (SF): 107 total yards against a defense widely regarded as the best in the league? Not too bad.
Week 4 (DET): Another beastly effort from him. Broke 10 tackles; 71 yards came after initial contact.
Week 5 (TEN): Hurt his ankle on the first carry of the game. Still finished with relatively solid numbers.

So, no, I strongly disagree with that.


Not that I agree with ranking Charles over Peterson (I certainly do not), it is really easy to make an argument like this when you take the glass half full approach on every game of one player and a glass half empty approach on every game of the other player. I could do the exact same thing by reversing how I look at each game and it still wouldn't help prove anything.

Glass half-empty? I think I was pretty objective here. I didn't even include Charles' performance in the first half from week 2.

I certainly appreciate your honesty regarding where Charles stands as a RB, though. He's elite (easily top 5; possibly top 3), but not the best.


Well I'm just saying, to blame Charles for his struggles in the 2nd half against Baltimore is silly. That was to be expected when we continued to refuse to pass the ball. It had nothing to do with Charles. You use the fact that Peterson was injured yet started well to prop him up, but fail to mention that this was Charles first serious action since his ACL injury as well. Calling him so-so at San Diego is definitely a discredit given how thoroughly the rest of our offense struggled that game (if you only meant he was so-so BECAUSE of the two fumbles, then I would agree, I will add that.) And you also leave out some facts that should be worth including, like that Charles is actually second for all RB in yards after contact, and I would argue he has played a much tougher defensive schedule than Peterson, playing San Diego, Atlanta, and Baltimore, who are all formidable defenses, while I only really think San Fran from AP's schedule is above average. The light things are put in make a huge difference. Not to say you're biased or anything, I just felt you left out some key things to Charles's credit. IMO though, these are the two best pure runners in the NFL right now. Guys like Rice, MJD, and Foster offer a bit more in the total package than either Peterson or Charles, but few can match Charles's vision and speed, or Peterson's overall athleticism and balance.

I'm glad to see someone from another fan base acknowledging that Charles is elite. Too many still rely on overused rhetoric to argue that he still hasn't proven it in this way or that way.

Charles played in each preseason game, though. Big difference. And, yes, it was so-so IMO due to the two fumbles within his first four carries (one of which cost them 7 points).

Agreed. They are the two best in terms of pure running ability. Charles is the very best at bursting into the second level once locating a hole, and runs at a good pad level. His overall strength is pretty impressive as well. And Adrian Peterson is, well, Adrian Peterson.
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JammerHammer21 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:
Arian's vision>>>>>>>>>>Charles's vision

Idk if Arian's is better than AD's but his is easily better than anyone else's in the league. Im not sure that Foster would really be doing a whole lot right now without his amazing vision


Way too many >>>>>>s in there. Foster may have better vision, but they're pretty damn close at the top of the list in that trait.

Consider this. Over the past 3 years, in the Chiefs offense, Charles averages 6.1 ypc. Over that same timespan, the backs we've used have included:

Thomas Jones at 3.7 ypc (2010) and 3.1 ypc (2011)
Jackie Battle at 3.1 ypc (2010) and 4.0 ypc (2011)
Dexter McCluster at 3.7 ypc (2010) and 4.5 ypc (2011)
Peyton Hillis at 4.4 ypc

This is with the exact same o-lines, with a wide variety of backs ranging from speed (McCluster, Battle) and power (Hillis, Battle.) Yet he averages about a full 2 yards per carry more than the rest of the backs KC has had over the past 3 years. That's all in his ability to find running lanes and see the holes the offensive line is opening up for him.


Something about Speed, Battle doesn't fit. Wink Unless you meant Jones, but he ain't speed either. Laughing


Battle is actually very fast. Don't let his size and the label of "power back" fool you.
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JammerHammer21


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
JammerHammer21 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:
Arian's vision>>>>>>>>>>Charles's vision

Idk if Arian's is better than AD's but his is easily better than anyone else's in the league. Im not sure that Foster would really be doing a whole lot right now without his amazing vision


Way too many >>>>>>s in there. Foster may have better vision, but they're pretty damn close at the top of the list in that trait.

Consider this. Over the past 3 years, in the Chiefs offense, Charles averages 6.1 ypc. Over that same timespan, the backs we've used have included:

Thomas Jones at 3.7 ypc (2010) and 3.1 ypc (2011)
Jackie Battle at 3.1 ypc (2010) and 4.0 ypc (2011)
Dexter McCluster at 3.7 ypc (2010) and 4.5 ypc (2011)
Peyton Hillis at 4.4 ypc

This is with the exact same o-lines, with a wide variety of backs ranging from speed (McCluster, Battle) and power (Hillis, Battle.) Yet he averages about a full 2 yards per carry more than the rest of the backs KC has had over the past 3 years. That's all in his ability to find running lanes and see the holes the offensive line is opening up for him.


Something about Speed, Battle doesn't fit. Wink Unless you meant Jones, but he ain't speed either. Laughing


Battle is actually very fast. Don't let his size and the label of "power back" fool you.


Unless he has a huge hole, he builds up no speed. Reminds me of that giant run against Atlanta. Wish that was Mathews. Battle is very fast for a dude his size, but not fast for a RB.
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AntiSuperstar


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank Gore is better than any of them.
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reckless123


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:
Arian's vision>>>>>>>>>>Charles's vision

Idk if Arian's is better than AD's but his is easily better than anyone else's in the league. Im not sure that Foster would really be doing a whole lot right now without his amazing vision


Disagree. Hes averaging IIRC 4 yards a carry and leads the league in rushing and attempts.

There is no love for MJD. I think he is the best RB in the league then ray rice but a 100% AP i would take over all of them
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texans_uk


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are chiefs fans choosing Charles ypc against their other backs as if that as an argument? Did you see the Texans running backs before foster with essentially the same oline? Yes Tate gets good ypc, but that's because he is a good running back in his own right and it always helps playing alongside an elite rb like Arian.
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Kiwibrown


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jamaal Charles.

best RB in the league.
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