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Daryl


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 488
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SUG Wrote:

Quote:
(aside from whether Ireland is doing or has done a good job ...)

Maybe in your eyes but no one on earth will ever cause me to think for 1 Nano second that Tanneyhill was
anybody else's pk other than Philbins.

That West Coast Off QB & his West Coast Off college head coach was conceived & executed by
"the Master West Coast Off Coord himself Joe Philbin with Mr Ross's blessings.
(Mike Sherman & Philbin are best buds going back 20 yrs)

Can anybody name me 1 single West Coast Off QB ever drafted by Ireland ...?

Can anybody name me 1 single team Ireland's services were employed that even ran a West Coast Off ...?

Can anybody name me 1 single 1st rnd QB in the past 20 yrs that Ireland drafted ...???

I rode & beat that horse to death myself, I looked 10 - 20 yrs back (Wiki) at all of Irelands 1st rnd pks.
Ain't nothin there.

The way I see it ... Philbins selection of Tanneyhill & his success or failure could very well will determine Irelands existence in Mia.

It's Irelands job to assist Philbin in surrounding Tanneyhill with the necessary talent to succeed.



And having said all that means nothing just because he hadn't done it before doesn't mean he couldn't or wouldn't . There is a first time for everything, name one QB that he drafted in the first round period?? I can't so what it means nothing? What we do know is Ross picked Jeff Ireland and chose to keep personnel decisions in his hands even when it meant not getting the coach he wanted. As late as a couple of weeks ago he reaffirmed his commitment to JI at a luncheon for employees. so as much as people would like to give him no credit for anything he deserves credit. I very seriously doubt that if JI said hey this isn't the guy we should be picking that Ross would have went against that say what you want about JI but fact is he has the owners trust period I think they have both proven that. Ross pointed out that only ONE active GM has signed more players still playing the NFL than Jeff Ireland. I included the link from the Bleacher report but the story is actually from the Sun Sentinel.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1365815-top-receiver-is-main-offseason-priority-steve-ross-tells-dolphins-employees
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Judson49


Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 630
Location: London
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
If I told you 5 years ago that we'd do this:

Free Agency:
1.) Bess - Top-tier slot WR
2.) Wake - Elite rush DE
3.) Bush - Uber-athletic RB
4.) Dansby - Top-tier ILB
5.) Starks - Top-tier DT
6.) Burnett - Very solid OLB

Draft:
1.) Tannehill - Very poised young QB
2.) Long - 4x Pro Bowler with ideal work ethic, leadership
3.) Pouncey - Top-tier C
4.) Martin - Young RT with big upside
5.) Miller - Young RB with big upside
6.) Thomas - Solid young RB with open-field ability
7.) Hartline - Football player first mentality and ideal work ethic
8.) Odrick - Above-average DE with great leadership
9.) Misi - Tackling machine & elite run-stuffing OLB
10.) Smith - Smart CB who's rarely out of position
11.) Jones - Developing young S with a mean streak


Would you have taken it?

If I told you we'd be implementing a WCO with a HC who holds players accountable but doesn't pull an ounce of spirit out of the locker-room, would you feel good about that?

If you look at this football team and think that it isn't better that it hasn't developed since Ireland has come here, I can't relate to your view. We have a superb defensive front-7. We have 2 very good pieces in our secondary. We have 2 very solid WRs and 3 very good RBs. We have a great-looking young QB.

We need a FS.
We need a WR.
We need a TE.
We need O-line.


You know what? This will be one of the best classes in recent history for teams needing elite offensive Guards. We need 2. This lines up perfectly for us! Drafting a LT to replace Long if we lose him is not going to kill us. We have multiple 2nd-round picks to do that.

We can use our 1st-round selection on either a WR or a FS, whichever is available to us. We can wait until later in the draft to try and add whatever we don't get.

We're in really good shape as a franchise for once. We have great leadership both on and off the field. Great coaches. Great systems. A few nationally-recognized great players and a wealth of solid guys who are competing like hell. We have a ton of cap space and our FAs are so good that no one on here wants to see us lose anyone outside of Chris Clemons.


If we get a new FS in round 1. A new LT in round 2. At least 1 outstanding G and finally, some help at WR, I don't see why we wouldn't be feeling high as a kite with how things are going.

Worst case, maybe we don't get the WR of our dreams and make due with a 2nd- or 3rd-round guy this year. You know what that means?

We'll be right back next year grabbing something ridiculous like Sammy Watkins.

Dude, I am elated for once thinking of all the possibilities for us throughout the upcoming off-season. Practically any pick between WR, FS, OT & OG will be superb and we've got 5 picks to address those spots.

Dude, give Ireland a freakin' raise or something. This is going too well! Laughing


I'm not getting into the Ireland debate again as this discussion was done to death earlier.

What I will say in response to this post Phinmun is, if you think Daniel Thomas has shown himself to be a solid young RB with open field ability I can't relate to your view!! I can't remember him removing himself from Pouncey's back long enough for him to have ever reached the open field.!!

Besides, as before, to reiterate, repeat and flog the dead horse - Ireland can't be given the free pass for the alleged errors of Parcells and at the same time praised for the Long's, Wake's, Hartline's and Bess'.

And Koa Misi is now having the "elite" tag added to an element of his game?
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
Posts: 2231
Location: South Carolina
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judson49 wrote:


I'm not getting into the Ireland debate again as this discussion was done to death earlier.

What I will say in response to this post Phinmun is, if you think Daniel Thomas has shown himself to be a solid young RB with open field ability I can't relate to your view!! I can't remember him removing himself from Pouncey's back long enough for him to have ever reached the open field.!!

Besides, as before, to reiterate, repeat and flog the dead horse - Ireland can't be given the free pass for the alleged errors of Parcells and at the same time praised for the Long's, Wake's, Hartline's and Bess'.

And Koa Misi is now having the "elite" tag added to an element of his game?



Take Thomas off that list if you want. Doesn't matter. He was the weakest link anyway.

However, Daniel Thomas' primary strength as a RB both in college and in the plays he's made as a Pro is running with the ball in space. That's where his speed and vision is utilized. We don't see it all the time unfortunately but that's the upside of Thomas. If you don't know, now you know.

Koa Misi is as big a part of this #1 run defense we're watching as anyone. He and Dansby are absolutely flying around and making tackles, blowing up running plays. If you don't know...now ya know!


You guys don't get it! Let the bad moves and mistakes stay in the past! They're over and done with! Nothing from the past is hurting us right now! Let it go! Are you not happy with where we're at? The train has arrived in the station and everyone is on board and happy yet you want to crucify the engineer. For what? Look at this team and tell me, for what?

This is a young team that's potentially 1 solid draft away from having all the pieces necessary to fight for a tough AFC East crown and contend in the Play-Offs. 3 or 4 years of experience and there's no reason we can't be looking past the Play-Offs!

You guys have to be thankful for what you've got when you open your eyes and see this team, one of the youngest in the NFL with a bunch of talent, very well balanced and way under the cap!

You guys sound like such spoiled children by what you type! Be happy for God's sake and stop complaining about Jeff Ireland when he's obviously part of the reason all this is happening.
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Russ57


Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 681
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My biggest problem with Ireland had nothing to do with who he has or hasn't drafted.

My problem is his behavior. As one former player put it, "If you were to meet Jeff out in the public, you would think he was one of the nicer guys around. But for some reason, once he sits down behind that desk to negotiate with players, he "thinks" he is supposed to act like a -."

When you want to attract elite talent...when you want to get a home town discount.....it is best to understand great players have choices and deserve to be treated like the potential assets they are. It isn't always just about the money. Maybe Jeff is getting better in this area; but until I hear former players say so I'm not buying it.
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ57 wrote:
My biggest problem with Ireland had nothing to do with who he has or hasn't drafted.

My problem is his behavior. As one former player put it, "If you were to meet Jeff out in the public, you would think he was one of the nicer guys around. But for some reason, once he sits down behind that desk to negotiate with players, he "thinks" he is supposed to act like a -."

When you want to attract elite talent...when you want to get a home town discount.....it is best to understand great players have choices and deserve to be treated like the potential assets they are. It isn't always just about the money. Maybe Jeff is getting better in this area; but until I hear former players say so I'm not buying it.


Players and GMs shouldn't be having to interact at all. Agents are supposed to coddle the players and convince them they deserve everything and that they're special and that they're not commodities while in the real business of football they are absolutely those things by definition.

You are being paid for doing a job. I know you don't like to think that your company and boss view you as a number and have to look at you as a financial risk but that's exactly what you are to them. If you don't bring profit to the business, they have no reason to employ you. In the case of players, they are hired guns. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's the price they paid to have the freedom they do thanks to free agency. There's no more loyalty. They gave that up by choice. That was their victory.

However, Jeff Ireland is a suit-wearing executive. His job is not to appeal to and discuss complicated and technical business issues with a professional weight-lifter in sweat pants. That's why agents exist. Screw the players, they're always going to complain about the people above them that make too much money and don't know what they're doing. Is that not exactly how every workplace is? Of course! Everyone thinks they could do their boss' job because he's overpaid and it's so easy, right?

It's never a problem when you win games though. It's never a problem when the NFLPA appeals every fine and suspension, right? Even when these overpaid and unappreciative jerks openly break rules normal society sets? It's never a problem when the NFLPA openly states that it'll do everything it can to get everything it can for it's players. But the owners and GMs can't be that way, right?

It's just noise.

Keep that in mind.
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SUG


Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 6725
Location: Alameda, Ca
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Russ57 wrote:
My biggest problem with Ireland had nothing to do with who he has or hasn't drafted.

My problem is his behavior. As one former player put it, "If you were to meet Jeff out in the public, you would think he was one of the nicer guys around. But for some reason, once he sits down behind that desk to negotiate with players, he "thinks" he is supposed to act like a -."

When you want to attract elite talent...when you want to get a home town discount.....it is best to understand great players have choices and deserve to be treated like the potential assets they are. It isn't always just about the money. Maybe Jeff is getting better in this area; but until I hear former players say so I'm not buying it.


Players and GMs shouldn't be having to interact at all. Agents are supposed to coddle the players and convince them they deserve everything and that they're special and that they're not commodities while in the real business of football they are absolutely those things by definition.

You are being paid for doing a job. I know you don't like to think that your company and boss view you as a number and have to look at you as a financial risk but that's exactly what you are to them. If you don't bring profit to the business, they have no reason to employ you. In the case of players, they are hired guns. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's the price they paid to have the freedom they do thanks to free agency. There's no more loyalty. They gave that up by choice. That was their victory.

However, Jeff Ireland is a suit-wearing executive. His job is not to appeal to and discuss complicated and technical business issues with a professional weight-lifter in sweat pants. That's why agents exist. Screw the players, they're always going to complain about the people above them that make too much money and don't know what they're doing. Is that not exactly how every workplace is? Of course! Everyone thinks they could do their boss' job because he's overpaid and it's so easy, right?

It's never a problem when you win games though. It's never a problem when the NFLPA appeals every fine and suspension, right? Even when these overpaid and unappreciative jerks openly break rules normal society sets? It's never a problem when the NFLPA openly states that it'll do everything it can to get everything it can for it's players. But the owners and GMs can't be that way, right?

It's just noise.

Keep that in mind.


I for one happen to agree with Phinmun here for the most part.
I believe it's the agents that get paid a ridiculous amount of money to dig the trenches on the
"front line & serve as cannon fodder".

I could care less what what Ireland asked Dez Bryant, comes with 1st rnd territory.

I could care less what he barked back a disgruntled fan, that comes with the territory as well.

My beef with J.I. is a 50/50 combination of:
* blown 2nd rnd pks
* the antiquated mind set of what drives a modern day Off & lack of vision regarding the QB position & absolutely NO plan B as to
how to aggressively address it. He was absolutely content to wait till the stars all properly aligned themselves to
simply draft another QB in the 2nd rnd IF & When it fell on our laps.

sug
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SUG


Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 6725
Location: Alameda, Ca
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daryl wrote:
SUG Wrote:

Quote:
(aside from whether Ireland is doing or has done a good job ...)

Maybe in your eyes but no one on earth will ever cause me to think for 1 Nano second that Tanneyhill was
anybody else's pk other than Philbins.

That West Coast Off QB & his West Coast Off college head coach was conceived & executed by
"the Master West Coast Off Coord himself Joe Philbin with Mr Ross's blessings.
(Mike Sherman & Philbin are best buds going back 20 yrs)

Can anybody name me 1 single West Coast Off QB ever drafted by Ireland ...?

Can anybody name me 1 single team Ireland's services were employed that even ran a West Coast Off ...?

Can anybody name me 1 single 1st rnd QB in the past 20 yrs that Ireland drafted ...???

I rode & beat that horse to death myself, I looked 10 - 20 yrs back (Wiki) at all of Irelands 1st rnd pks.
Ain't nothin there.

The way I see it ... Philbins selection of Tanneyhill & his success or failure could very well will determine Irelands existence in Mia.

It's Irelands job to assist Philbin in surrounding Tanneyhill with the necessary talent to succeed.



And having said all that means nothing just because he hadn't done it before doesn't mean he couldn't or wouldn't . There is a first time for everything, name one QB that he drafted in the first round period?? I can't so what it means nothing? What we do know is Ross picked Jeff Ireland and chose to keep personnel decisions in his hands even when it meant not getting the coach he wanted. As late as a couple of weeks ago he reaffirmed his commitment to JI at a luncheon for employees. so as much as people would like to give him no credit for anything he deserves credit. I very seriously doubt that if JI said hey this isn't the guy we should be picking that Ross would have went against that say what you want about JI but fact is he has the owners trust period I think they have both proven that. Ross pointed out that only ONE active GM has signed more players still playing the NFL than Jeff Ireland. I included the link from the Bleacher report but the story is actually from the Sun Sentinel.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1365815-top-receiver-is-main-offseason-priority-steve-ross-tells-dolphins-employees


I did read that article but thank you.

My opinion about JI & his yesteryear approach to "game managing NFL QBs" remains the same.

Why would anyone expect me to believe that JI magically had a divine beam of light from the
heavens descend upon, illuminate & morph his 20 yr philosophy 180 degrees in the opposite direction with
Ross's hiring of a West Coast guru who happened to bring over his 20 yr best
buddy he used to coach with in Iowa who also happened to be Tanneys HC @ Texas ....???? Shocked Really !?!?

Oakie Doakie Rolling Eyes

sug
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Daryl


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SUG

I'm not saying that they had no say it drafting Tannehill that also makes no sense but what coach do you know that's forced fed players he doesn't want? I don't really think it takes some magical metamorphosis like you do it's called adapting and ppl do it all the time. It's really not rocket science. Maybe it's my military back ground that makes it a simple concept to me because I see people from all walks of life and from various countries join the US military and change what they have known all their lives to form the greatest fighting forces in the world.


Last edited by Daryl on Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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phinmun


Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daryl wrote:
SUG

I'm not saying that they had no say it drafting Tannehill that also makes no sense but what coach do you know that's forced fed players he doesn't want? I don't really think it takes some magical metamorphosis like you do it's called adapting and ppl do it all the time. It's really not rock science. Maybe it's my military back ground that makes it a simple concept to me because I see people from all walks of life and from various countries join the US military and change what they have known all their lives to form the greatest fighting forces in the world.


Well put!

And now there's such thing as a west coast QB? That's such a vast simplification of a hugely complex rubric. That's such fan language. You have QB prospects with varying, uncertain skill-sets, not individually molded scheme-exclusive guys. That's ridiculous.

The only way to win in the NFL is to buy into whatever you think is right and try and go out and get the right guys for that system. Not the right guys for another system, you need what's going to fit in your house.

As a GM, you give the coaches what they ask for because that's what's in the best interest of everyone who wants to field a winning team and keep their jobs! To me, a GM who can do that is the greatest GM there is. If there's transparency between the coaches' needs and the NFL draft, the GM is doing the right thing.

A look back at Jeff Ireland's history shows THAT'S what he's doing in each and every situation. Whether it was Parcells, Sparano or Philbin, they each got what they wanted for their systems. Wow?! What an incredible idea? And it doesn't require we label anyone an imbecile either! Rolling Eyes

SUG's posts above just go to show how people develop ideas and then look for evidence to support them. You think one thing and then develop this whole theory about how Jeff Ireland is the worst GM on the planet, a guy who can't even tie his own shoes, and then go off and try to paint every pick he's ever made as being 'evidence' of some sort of track record.

Don't look at the context. That doesn't matter, right? There's never some simpler explanation that allows Jeff Ireland to be a rational person, right? Rolling Eyes

You've already decided that the 2013 draft will be a failure. Even though Tannehill, Martin and Miller all look good in a system Ireland supposedly didn't know anything about (and Egnew might develop as the season goes along), you still can't believe Ireland could be successful. In fact, that whole idea doesn't fit into your preconceived picture and so you throw that stuff out.

The evidence was supposed to say that Ireland sucked and so it's convenient to throw out evidence in support of any other claim.



Let me tell everyone what a GMs job really is. He's a mediary between these things:

1.) The NFL
2.) The Owners
3.) The Investors
4.) The Players' Agents
5.) The Scouting Department
6.) The Coaching Staff

No GM is expected to be an expert in the West Coast Offense or any other offensive system. That wouldn't make any sense at all. It would be a waste of time because the same thing(s) can be accomplished if he's familar with the concepts and sits beside the coaches during the draft process. And wow, is that not exactly what's done with every team in April? A huge scouting process culminates in a group decision.

Do you expect someone who answers to all of these entities to be an expert? No. I would expect that person to have grown up around football and to display an ability to understand salary cap demands, player acquisition, draft strategy, coaching philosophy as well as the immense professional demands of the position regarding his association with the NFL, Owners and other outside entities.

If there's a failure with Ireland it's that he's a 'suit' who doesn't want to play that role. He sits in his office wearing workout clothes because he's grown up around football. On the sidelines. He looks at practices and talks with coaches. Unfortunately, he also has to live in this corporate world, too, which I get the feeling he's quite uncomfortable in. People think he's a stiff, that he's some sort of corporate guy, but you want to know why you don't like that? It's because the shoe doesn't fit! Ireland doesn't fit that mold and he's not going to be successful in that role. He's Jake Long in the wrong system. Jeff Ireland is a guy that works his tail off but yet he still bears the cross of an ungrateful fan-base, a bunch of ungrateful players and the knowledge that whatever happens, the credit will go to someone else.

But that's why when we fantasize about being a GM, we know in reality that we would put a gun to our heads after a week on the job. We couldn't deal with the expectations, the pressure OR the lack of appreciation.

Jeff Ireland does so much but you all just paint him as an idiot. You're so ungrateful for all the right things that have happened. Free Agency has been great to this team. Drafting has been solid. We've yet to miss on a high pick quite frankly and now Tannehill, a risky high pick, seems to be continuing that legacy.
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Daryl


Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 488
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Quote:
And now there's such thing as a west coast QB? That's such a vast simplification of a hugely complex rubric. That's such fan language. You have QB prospects with varying, uncertain skill-sets, not individually molded scheme-exclusive guys. That's ridiculous.

The only way to win in the NFL is to buy into whatever you think is right and try and go out and get the right guys for that system. Not the right guys for another system, you need what's going to fit in your house.

As a GM, you give the coaches what they ask for because that's what's in the best interest of everyone who wants to field a winning team and keep their jobs! To me, a GM who can do that is the greatest GM there is. If there's transparency between the coaches' needs and the NFL draft, the GM is doing the right thing.

A look back at Jeff Ireland's history shows THAT'S what he's doing in each and every situation. Whether it was Parcells, Sparano or Philbin, they each got what they wanted for their systems. Wow?! What an incredible idea? And it doesn't require we label anyone an imbecile either!

SUG's posts above just go to show how people develop ideas and then look for evidence to support them. You think one thing and then develop this whole theory about how Jeff Ireland is the worst GM on the planet, a guy who can't even tie his own shoes, and then go off and try to paint every pick he's ever made as being 'evidence' of some sort of track record.

Don't look at the context. That doesn't matter, right? There's never some simpler explanation that allows Jeff Ireland to be a rational person, right?

You've already decided that the 2013 draft will be a failure. Even though Tannehill, Martin and Miller all look good in a system Ireland supposedly didn't know anything about (and Egnew might develop as the season goes along), you still can't believe Ireland could be successful. In fact, that whole idea doesn't fit into your preconceived picture and so you throw that stuff out.

The evidence was supposed to say that Ireland sucked and so it's convenient to throw out evidence in support of any other claim.



Let me tell everyone what a GMs job really is. He's a mediary between these things:

1.) The NFL
2.) The Owners
3.) The Investors
4.) The Players' Agents
5.) The Scouting Department
6.) The Coaching Staff

No GM is expected to be an expert in the West Coast Offense or any other offensive system. That wouldn't make any sense at all. It would be a waste of time because the same thing(s) can be accomplished if he's familar with the concepts and sits beside the coaches during the draft process. And wow, is that not exactly what's done with every team in April? A huge scouting process culminates in a group decision.

Do you expect someone who answers to all of these entities to be an expert? No. I would expect that person to have grown up around football and to display an ability to understand salary cap demands, player acquisition, draft strategy, coaching philosophy as well as the immense professional demands of the position regarding his association with the NFL, Owners and other outside entities.

If there's a failure with Ireland it's that he's a 'suit' who doesn't want to play that role. He sits in his office wearing workout clothes because he's grown up around football. On the sidelines. He looks at practices and talks with coaches. Unfortunately, he also has to live in this corporate world, too, which I get the feeling he's quite uncomfortable in. People think he's a stiff, that he's some sort of corporate guy, but you want to know why you don't like that? It's because the shoe doesn't fit! Ireland doesn't fit that mold and he's not going to be successful in that role. He's Jake Long in the wrong system. Jeff Ireland is a guy that works his tail off but yet he still bears the cross of an ungrateful fan-base, a bunch of ungrateful players and the knowledge that whatever happens, the credit will go to someone else.

But that's why when we fantasize about being a GM, we know in reality that we would put a gun to our heads after a week on the job. We couldn't deal with the expectations, the pressure OR the lack of appreciation.

Jeff Ireland does so much but you all just paint him as an idiot. You're so ungrateful for all the right things that have happened. Free Agency has been great to this team. Drafting has been solid. We've yet to miss on a high pick quite frankly and now Tannehill, a risky high pick, seems to be continuing that legacy.


AMEN!! Now that is a great post!!!!
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SUG


Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 6725
Location: Alameda, Ca
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Daryl wrote:
SUG

I'm not saying that they had no say it drafting Tannehill that also makes no sense but what coach do you know that's forced fed players he doesn't want? I don't really think it takes some magical metamorphosis like you do it's called adapting and ppl do it all the time. It's really not rock science. Maybe it's my military back ground that makes it a simple concept to me because I see people from all walks of life and from various countries join the US military and change what they have known all their lives to form the greatest fighting forces in the world.


Well put!

And now there's such thing as a west coast QB? That's such a vast simplification of a hugely complex rubric. That's such fan language. You have QB prospects with varying, uncertain skill-sets, not individually molded scheme-exclusive guys. That's ridiculous.

The only way to win in the NFL is to buy into whatever you think is right and try and go out and get the right guys for that system. Not the right guys for another system, you need what's going to fit in your house.


As a GM, you give the coaches what they ask for because that's what's in the best interest of everyone who wants to field a winning team and keep their jobs! To me, a GM who can do that is the greatest GM there is. If there's transparency between the coaches' needs and the NFL draft, the GM is doing the right thing.

A look back at Jeff Ireland's history shows THAT'S what he's doing in each and every situation. Whether it was Parcells, Sparano or Philbin, they each got what they wanted for their systems. Wow?! What an incredible idea? And it doesn't require we label anyone an imbecile either!
Rolling Eyes

SUG's posts above just go to show how people develop ideas and then look for evidence to support them.
You think one thing and then develop this whole theory about how Jeff Ireland is the worst GM on the planet, a guy who can't even tie his own shoes, and then go off and try to paint every pick he's ever made as being 'evidence' of some sort of track record.

Don't look at the context. That doesn't matter, right? There's never some simpler explanation that allows Jeff Ireland to be a rational person, right? Rolling Eyes

You've already decided that the 2013 draft will be a failure. Even though Tannehill, Martin and Miller all look good in a system Ireland supposedly didn't know anything about (and Egnew might develop as the season goes along), you still can't believe Ireland could be successful. In fact, that whole idea doesn't fit into your preconceived picture and so you throw that stuff out.

The evidence was supposed to say that Ireland sucked and so it's convenient to throw out evidence in support of any other claim.



Let me tell everyone what a GMs job really is. He's a mediary between these things:

1.) The NFL
2.) The Owners
3.) The Investors
4.) The Players' Agents
5.) The Scouting Department
6.) The Coaching Staff

No GM is expected to be an expert in the West Coast Offense or any other offensive system. That wouldn't make any sense at all. It would be a waste of time because the same thing(s) can be accomplished if he's familar with the concepts and sits beside the coaches during the draft process. And wow, is that not exactly what's done with every team in April? A huge scouting process culminates in a group decision.

Do you expect someone who answers to all of these entities to be an expert? No. I would expect that person to have grown up around football and to display an ability to understand salary cap demands, player acquisition, draft strategy, coaching philosophy as well as the immense professional demands of the position regarding his association with the NFL, Owners and other outside entities.

If there's a failure with Ireland it's that he's a 'suit' who doesn't want to play that role. He sits in his office wearing workout clothes because he's grown up around football. On the sidelines. He looks at practices and talks with coaches. Unfortunately, he also has to live in this corporate world, too, which I get the feeling he's quite uncomfortable in. People think he's a stiff, that he's some sort of corporate guy, but you want to know why you don't like that? It's because the shoe doesn't fit! Ireland doesn't fit that mold and he's not going to be successful in that role. He's Jake Long in the wrong system. Jeff Ireland is a guy that works his tail off but yet he still bears the cross of an ungrateful fan-base, a bunch of ungrateful players and the knowledge that whatever happens, the credit will go to someone else.

But that's why when we fantasize about being a GM, we know in reality that we would put a gun to our heads after a week on the job. We couldn't deal with the expectations, the pressure OR the lack of appreciation.

Jeff Ireland does so much but you all just paint him as an idiot. You're so ungrateful for all the right things that have happened. Free Agency has been great to this team. Drafting has been solid. We've yet to miss on a high pick quite frankly and now Tannehill, a risky high pick, seems to be continuing that legacy.


1st bold:
"The only way to win in the NFL is to buy into whatever you think is right" ....
Yeah uhmm ... that thought process alone effectively wipes out JI first 5 yrs.
Based on that assessment you are admitting what I've been saying all along - Ireland not only did not have a clue regarding what Mia required @ QB and the obvious - no back up plan.
No, it's not a complex rubric cube, it's called called a 180 degree change in philosophy of thinking you can win in a modern era NFL with a game managing QB.
And after Pat White he was still not willing to make sacrifices to obtain the most imp player in the NFL, the QB. = FAIL

2nd bold:
That's why I suggested we not only fire JI but that our new HC should have the flexibility of hiring his own GM. (not a new concept)
That measure alone forces the language of the acquisition of draftee's & FA to come from 1 voice.
That's so that you don't leave any loopholes for HC & GMs to hide from each others shortcomings in a "Puppet Regime". (sound familiar ?)

3rd bold:
I never said JI Ireland was the worst GM on the planet, don't put words in my mouth. I've always referred to him affectionately as "Moron"
I said of his NFL draft pks that he was ever associated with did not show 1 single 1st rnd QB pk.
I said there was no evidence of any effort to obtain or implement an elite QB.

4th bold:
I personally carried out that research to educate myself on what I firmly believe to be the single most
important issue affecting the Mia Dolphins the past 5 yrs.
I made sure I didn't show up here un prepared, not knowing the documented facts.

5th bold:
The evidence is what it is:
* 5 - 6 blown 2nd rnd pks (not including J Martin)
* put his reputation on the line for Sporano the past 5 yrs to "give him what he wanted"
* Not 1 single QB developed

6th bold:
"Let me tell everyone what a GMs job really is. He's a mediary between these things:" ..... WOW ... could ya aww gee goody ..
Razz ... Behold un to thee ... Pray - - - No thank you - you should listen to yourself !


I hope Ireland sticks to submitting scouting reports & closing contracts out, for the most part he just
needs to stay the hell out of Philbins way.

sug
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ViolentMonk71


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 3766
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look at what Ireland has done in the past 8 - 10 months and see someone who is finally getting a chance to rebuild this team.

They hired a coach....while we may all speculate that he wasn't the Dolphin's 1st choice, he does seem like the right choice.

HE has rid the team of players who do not fit the direction of the team...Would the team win a couple more games with Marshall, Johnson, and Davis....yes, but could Marshall and Johnson hindered Tannehill with their attitudes...possibly.

He rightfully passed on Flynn...he was a guy several thought the Dolphins were going to go after hard, but listening to Philbin who had worked with Flynn the last few years decided that he would be wouldn't be worth the investment....seeing his position with the Seahawks....good move Phins.

2012 Draft Philbin and Ireland listen to the OC about the real potential of Tannehill and it has paid dividends. He has improved considerably since joining the Dolphins and looks to be the team's franchise QB for the next decade. Martin, Vernon, and Miller all look to be solid players.

Right now I'm giving the guy credit...we don't know what he was told to do in the past with former coaches and team presidents, but right now it looks like the team has a direction.
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Judson49


Joined: 27 Apr 2008
Posts: 630
Location: London
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ViolentMonk71 wrote:
I look at what Ireland has done in the past 8 - 10 months and see someone who is finally getting a chance to rebuild this team.

They hired a coach....while we may all speculate that he wasn't the Dolphin's 1st choice, he does seem like the right choice.

HE has rid the team of players who do not fit the direction of the team...Would the team win a couple more games with Marshall, Johnson, and Davis....yes, but could Marshall and Johnson hindered Tannehill with their attitudes...possibly.

He rightfully passed on Flynn...he was a guy several thought the Dolphins were going to go after hard, but listening to Philbin who had worked with Flynn the last few years decided that he would be wouldn't be worth the investment....seeing his position with the Seahawks....good move Phins.

2012 Draft Philbin and Ireland listen to the OC about the real potential of Tannehill and it has paid dividends. He has improved considerably since joining the Dolphins and looks to be the team's franchise QB for the next decade. Martin, Vernon, and Miller all look to be solid players.

Right now I'm giving the guy credit...we don't know what he was told to do in the past with former coaches and team presidents, but right now it looks like the team has a direction.


Whilst I find it bizarre that the Ireland debate goes on and on...... (I mean come on guys, can't those that rate him accept there are those of us that don't, and also stop with the wild end of the spectrum accusations i.e. "You all just paint him as an idiot") .......I'm still going to chip in for a moment.

But only to point out that he shouldn't really be getting credit for "rightfully passing" on Matt Flynn. He offered the dude a contract. Low ball or not, all Matt Flynn has to do is right his name down and Jeff Ireland hasn't passed on him. Matt Flynn passed on the Miami Dolphins, and the money they offered. Jeff Ireland tried to sign him.
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ViolentMonk71


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 3766
Location: Don Shula's front porch
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judson49 wrote:
ViolentMonk71 wrote:
I look at what Ireland has done in the past 8 - 10 months and see someone who is finally getting a chance to rebuild this team.

They hired a coach....while we may all speculate that he wasn't the Dolphin's 1st choice, he does seem like the right choice.

HE has rid the team of players who do not fit the direction of the team...Would the team win a couple more games with Marshall, Johnson, and Davis....yes, but could Marshall and Johnson hindered Tannehill with their attitudes...possibly.

He rightfully passed on Flynn...he was a guy several thought the Dolphins were going to go after hard, but listening to Philbin who had worked with Flynn the last few years decided that he would be wouldn't be worth the investment....seeing his position with the Seahawks....good move Phins.

2012 Draft Philbin and Ireland listen to the OC about the real potential of Tannehill and it has paid dividends. He has improved considerably since joining the Dolphins and looks to be the team's franchise QB for the next decade. Martin, Vernon, and Miller all look to be solid players.

Right now I'm giving the guy credit...we don't know what he was told to do in the past with former coaches and team presidents, but right now it looks like the team has a direction.


Whilst I find it bizarre that the Ireland debate goes on and on...... (I mean come on guys, can't those that rate him accept there are those of us that don't, and also stop with the wild end of the spectrum accusations i.e. "You all just paint him as an idiot") .......I'm still going to chip in for a moment.

But only to point out that he shouldn't really be getting credit for "rightfully passing" on Matt Flynn. He offered the dude a contract. Low ball or not, all Matt Flynn has to do is right his name down and Jeff Ireland hasn't passed on him. Matt Flynn passed on the Miami Dolphins, and the money they offered. Jeff Ireland tried to sign him.


They did....they could have matched the money offered by Seattle, but knew he wasn't worth that kind of coin. As far as I have read....Flynn wanted to play for Philbin and Miami, but they chose to offer him what they did. That was passing on the player...low balling him showed how much they valued his services...they may have thought he could compete, but he wasn't the answer (I assume Philbin had much to say this subject).
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dolphan9954


Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Posts: 6960
Location: Miami
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SUG- to be completely honest, 65% of that last post made entirely no sense.


Fans in Miami want perfection, and that might have to do with Pat Riley being one of the best ever, and he has the best NBA team in the world down the street.

The fact is, no NFL GM is perfect. Ozzie Newsome has flaws, and he might be the best in the NFL. The things we have to do is separate personal feelings toward JI and then what we know for a fact:

What do we know:

Ireland has what some people call bad people skills, but he is a straight shooter. If you want to be a member of a Jeff Ireland team, you have to answer tough straight forward questions.

Ireland does his homework, and he will not get forced into anything. If you are trading with JI he makes the rules, and he isn't making a deal unless he is convinced he is winning the deal.

He likes shorter term contracts, thus he doesn't like signing big name free agents (Dansby as the big exception, but that was fairly obvious).

If his picks don't pan out, he cuts his losses and gets value (ie: Vontae Davis)

Now my personal opinion:
I think he works well with coaches, and he has an eye for coaching talent. Do you guys not see that when Sparano was on staff, JI also was in on Harbaugh? The same Harbaugh that entirely might be the best coach in the NFL today? Ireland was in on Jeff Fisher who in one offseason has set the Rams up as one of the most improved teams in the league, and also set up with future assets because of the RGIII deal. Ireland also had Miami down to Philbin and McCoy, both guys are going to be great head coaches one day. Philbin got the job, and what has he done? He put together a good staff, is developing players that were previously labeled as "busts", "overpaid vets" Players this staff has developed in their 6 months that Sparano's staff couldn't:

Koa Misi
Chris Clemons
Reshad Jones
Nolan Carroll
Brian Hartline
Sean Smith

Are the big ones that stick out off the top of my head. Even players like Bess, Bush, and Fasano have taken their games up a notch.

Vets who are playing better under this staff:

Dansby (many claim he was overpaid prior to this season)
Burnett (same)
Wake (is now a top 3 pass rusher in the game)
Starks (might be the best DT in the league this year)
Soliai (finally is consistently dominant)

The draft class is making impacts already, on a GOOD football team.

Tannehill (starting QB, making huge strides in 6 games)
Martin (developing right before our eyes, starter)
Miller (has flashed, can't block but he might be our best pure runner)
Vernon (plays a lot on defense, HUGE reason why we beat STL. Actually decent in coverage for a pass rusher)
Randall (playing very well for a late round DT, probably will take over for McDaniels next season)

Does JI deserve all of the credit? No. But does he deserve a lot of it? Yes. He helped choose the coach, and gave that coach the freedom to choose these coaches. He helped choose the players that fit the schemes and the molds that HIS coach gave him.

Philbin is JI's coach. Sparano was a forced relationship, and I think Ireland saw that TS was incompetent as a HC.
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