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R.A. Dickey Wins NL Cy Young
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green24


Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 47651
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
Saying stuff like, "knucklers can't pitch with the wind at their back" or in the rain, or whatever is completely dishonest because at some point during the season your knuckleballer is going to have to pitch in those adverse conditions.

This decreases his value.


Terry Collins did say after that start that he would push back any of Dickey's starts to avoid having him pitch in the rain again. Luckily, he never needed to do that.
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ramssuperbowl99


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
Saying stuff like, "knucklers can't pitch with the wind at their back" or in the rain, or whatever is completely dishonest because at some point during the season your knuckleballer is going to have to pitch in those adverse conditions.

This decreases his value.


Terry Collins did say after that start that he would push back any of Dickey's starts to avoid having him pitch in the rain again. Luckily, he never needed to do that.
Once again, that decreases his value. What if it happens to be wet or rainy or the wind is blowing out in a playoff (or worse) a wild card play-in game?

It's intellectually dishonest to throw out starts Dickey did poorly due to conditions.
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green24


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
green24 wrote:
ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
Saying stuff like, "knucklers can't pitch with the wind at their back" or in the rain, or whatever is completely dishonest because at some point during the season your knuckleballer is going to have to pitch in those adverse conditions.

This decreases his value.


Terry Collins did say after that start that he would push back any of Dickey's starts to avoid having him pitch in the rain again. Luckily, he never needed to do that.
Once again, that decreases his value. What if it happens to be wet or rainy or the wind is blowing out in a playoff (or worse) a wild card play-in game?

It's intellectually dishonest to throw out starts Dickey did poorly due to conditions.


If it's an elimination game I'm sure Dickey would just pitch through it. Dickey has no problem pitching on three days rest and probably would have done that down the stretch if the Mets were in a pennant race.

Not that this had any impact on the Cy Young, but Dickey pitched nearly the entire season with a torn abdominal muscle.
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LionsFTW


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the LOL
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green24


Joined: 10 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFTW wrote:
This is the LOL

The AL MVP thread isn't up yet...
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coltsmanic808


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its A Sabotage wrote:
coltsmanic808 wrote:
Relievers shouldn't even be in the argument for Cy Young. Get out of here.


But Starting pitchers can win MVP?
Interesting, interesting.


Not an advocate of starting pitchers winning an MVP unless they have an all-time dominant season and there's no real viable alternative for MVP. Something along those lines.
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LionsFTW


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFTW wrote:
This is the LOL


Cabrera is more worthy of the MVP than Dickey is the Cy Young.
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Mesa_Titan


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFTW wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
This is the LOL


Cabrera is more worthy of the MVP than Dickey is the Cy Young.


I hate Dickey being picked as the Cy Young and no, it isn't.

Trout not winning the MVP would be a complete travesty. Miguel Cabrera couldn't hold his jock this year.
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LionsFTW


Joined: 25 Jan 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mesa_Titan wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
This is the LOL


Cabrera is more worthy of the MVP than Dickey is the Cy Young.


I hate Dickey being picked as the Cy Young and no, it isn't.

Trout not winning the MVP would be a complete travesty. Miguel Cabrera couldn't hold his jock this year.


To an extent, I agree. But to say R.A. should even be in the top two is absurd to me. Gio, Kershaw, Wade Miley, Johnny Cueto and even Cliff Lee with his 6-9 record record all had better a better WAR than R.A.. The only reason R.A. had so many IP's was because he is a knuckleballer. If you want to take away WAR, FIP and xFIP away from R.A. because of the type of pitcher he is, then you have to take away IP's because being a knuckleballer, he has a lot less stress on his arm compared to guys such as Verlander and Kershaw, who have around the same amount of IP's with a lot more work put into it. That's why guys like Dickey and Wakefield last so long into their career and are still effective.

And I don't care how many K's in the season a pitcher put up. His K/9 is lower than both Gio and Kershaw. Gio and Kershaw both had better FIP, BABIP, HR/9 (R.A. isn't even top 30 in MLB in this regard), and plenty others.

The only stat that matters that R.A. leads the others in is IP, and since we want to discount stats on behalf of the knuckleball style, then we can discount this one, as well.

1. Kershaw
2. Gio
3. Who cares.
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green24


Joined: 10 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFTW wrote:
Mesa_Titan wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
This is the LOL


Cabrera is more worthy of the MVP than Dickey is the Cy Young.


I hate Dickey being picked as the Cy Young and no, it isn't.

Trout not winning the MVP would be a complete travesty. Miguel Cabrera couldn't hold his jock this year.


To an extent, I agree. But to say R.A. should even be in the top two is absurd to me. Gio, Wade Miley, Johnny Cueto and even Cliff Lee with his 6-9 record record all had better a better WAR than R.A.. The only reason R.A. had so many IP's was because he is a knuckleballer. If you want to take away WAR, FIP and xFIP away from R.A. because of the type of pitcher he is, then you have to take away IP's because being a knuckleballer, he has a lot less stress on his arm compared to guys such as Verlander and Kershaw, who have around the same amount of IP's with a lot more work put into it. That's why guys like Dickey and Wakefield last so long into their career and are still effective.

And I don't care how many K's in the season a pitcher put up. His K/9 is lower than both Gio and Kershaw. Gio and Kershaw both had better FIP, BABIP, HR/9 (R.A. isn't even top 30 in MLB in this regard), and plenty others.

The only stat that matters that R.A. leads the others in is IP, and since we want to discount stats on behalf of the knuckleball style, then we can discount this one, as well.

1. Kershaw
2. Gio
3. Who cares.


Sabermetrics do not apply as well to knuckleballers.

http://tinyurl.com/a2rgt4l
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mse326


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
Mesa_Titan wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
This is the LOL


Cabrera is more worthy of the MVP than Dickey is the Cy Young.


I hate Dickey being picked as the Cy Young and no, it isn't.

Trout not winning the MVP would be a complete travesty. Miguel Cabrera couldn't hold his jock this year.


To an extent, I agree. But to say R.A. should even be in the top two is absurd to me. Gio, Wade Miley, Johnny Cueto and even Cliff Lee with his 6-9 record record all had better a better WAR than R.A.. The only reason R.A. had so many IP's was because he is a knuckleballer. If you want to take away WAR, FIP and xFIP away from R.A. because of the type of pitcher he is, then you have to take away IP's because being a knuckleballer, he has a lot less stress on his arm compared to guys such as Verlander and Kershaw, who have around the same amount of IP's with a lot more work put into it. That's why guys like Dickey and Wakefield last so long into their career and are still effective.

And I don't care how many K's in the season a pitcher put up. His K/9 is lower than both Gio and Kershaw. Gio and Kershaw both had better FIP, BABIP, HR/9 (R.A. isn't even top 30 in MLB in this regard), and plenty others.

The only stat that matters that R.A. leads the others in is IP, and since we want to discount stats on behalf of the knuckleball style, then we can discount this one, as well.

1. Kershaw
2. Gio
3. Who cares.


Sabermetrics do not apply as well to knuckleballers.

http://tinyurl.com/a2rgt4l


On top of that the WAR stat depends on whether for a single season what happened award you would rather look at fWAR (which uses FIP) over rWAR (which is uses ERA). Personally for an award like this I think rWAR is the better measure because it is what happened instead of a hypothetical what is expected to happen. In rWAR Dickey is 2nd behind Kershaw, IIRC. And I think it was only by .6WAR.
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LionsFTW


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
Mesa_Titan wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
This is the LOL


Cabrera is more worthy of the MVP than Dickey is the Cy Young.


I hate Dickey being picked as the Cy Young and no, it isn't.

Trout not winning the MVP would be a complete travesty. Miguel Cabrera couldn't hold his jock this year.


To an extent, I agree. But to say R.A. should even be in the top two is absurd to me. Gio, Wade Miley, Johnny Cueto and even Cliff Lee with his 6-9 record record all had better a better WAR than R.A.. The only reason R.A. had so many IP's was because he is a knuckleballer. If you want to take away WAR, FIP and xFIP away from R.A. because of the type of pitcher he is, then you have to take away IP's because being a knuckleballer, he has a lot less stress on his arm compared to guys such as Verlander and Kershaw, who have around the same amount of IP's with a lot more work put into it. That's why guys like Dickey and Wakefield last so long into their career and are still effective.

And I don't care how many K's in the season a pitcher put up. His K/9 is lower than both Gio and Kershaw. Gio and Kershaw both had better FIP, BABIP, HR/9 (R.A. isn't even top 30 in MLB in this regard), and plenty others.

The only stat that matters that R.A. leads the others in is IP, and since we want to discount stats on behalf of the knuckleball style, then we can discount this one, as well.

1. Kershaw
2. Gio
3. Who cares.


Sabermetrics do not apply as well to knuckleballers.

http://tinyurl.com/a2rgt4l


Of course they don't. Which is why knckleballers should always get special treatment, right?
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mse326


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mesa_Titan wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
This is the LOL


Cabrera is more worthy of the MVP than Dickey is the Cy Young.


I hate Dickey being picked as the Cy Young and no, it isn't.

Trout not winning the MVP would be a complete travesty. Miguel Cabrera couldn't hold his jock this year.


Trout is clearly #1.

And you could even make a strong argument for Cano over Cabrera as well. Truth is no one belongs anywhere near Trout on the ballot. It should just read #1-Trout, #2-N/A, #3-Cano/Cabrera
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mse326


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsFTW wrote:
green24 wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
Mesa_Titan wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
LionsFTW wrote:
This is the LOL


Cabrera is more worthy of the MVP than Dickey is the Cy Young.


I hate Dickey being picked as the Cy Young and no, it isn't.

Trout not winning the MVP would be a complete travesty. Miguel Cabrera couldn't hold his jock this year.


To an extent, I agree. But to say R.A. should even be in the top two is absurd to me. Gio, Wade Miley, Johnny Cueto and even Cliff Lee with his 6-9 record record all had better a better WAR than R.A.. The only reason R.A. had so many IP's was because he is a knuckleballer. If you want to take away WAR, FIP and xFIP away from R.A. because of the type of pitcher he is, then you have to take away IP's because being a knuckleballer, he has a lot less stress on his arm compared to guys such as Verlander and Kershaw, who have around the same amount of IP's with a lot more work put into it. That's why guys like Dickey and Wakefield last so long into their career and are still effective.

And I don't care how many K's in the season a pitcher put up. His K/9 is lower than both Gio and Kershaw. Gio and Kershaw both had better FIP, BABIP, HR/9 (R.A. isn't even top 30 in MLB in this regard), and plenty others.

The only stat that matters that R.A. leads the others in is IP, and since we want to discount stats on behalf of the knuckleball style, then we can discount this one, as well.

1. Kershaw
2. Gio
3. Who cares.


Sabermetrics do not apply as well to knuckleballers.

http://tinyurl.com/a2rgt4l


Of course they don't. Which is why knckleballers should always get special treatment, right?


What special treatment?

Do you mean not blindly following stats but considering them in context? Anyone worth having a discussion with does that with everyone knuckleballer not. You may not agree with the conclusion, but it is hardly special treatment.
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green24


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
In rWAR Dickey is 2nd behind Kershaw, IIRC. And I think it was only by .6WAR.

You are correct on the latter, but not the former. Cueto falls between them with a 5.8 WAR (.2 more than Dickey).
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