Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Dez Bryant vs AJ Green
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> NFL Comparisons
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Better young WR
Dez Bryant
19%
 19%  [ 24 ]
AJ Green
80%
 80%  [ 100 ]
Total Votes : 124

Author Message
Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 36994
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously.. Our oline is one of the worst in the league. Those numbers do not encapsulate how often there was not a chance for "under pressure" to happen because Romo would throw the hot read 1.5 seconds have the ball was snapped.

Or, how often Dalton would come "under pressure" after holding the ball for 3-4 seconds.


He clearly had more opportunity/time to throw the ball.

As for the turnovers - according to ESPN -

Cincy had 30 turnovers and 3 Defensive TDs, Meaning 27 more chances for Dalton. you were Plus 4 on the year for give/takeaways

Dallas had 22 turnovers, and 3 TDs. We were -13 in give/takeaways
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheVillain112


Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 16056
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Seriously.. Our oline is one of the worst in the league. Those numbers do not encapsulate how often there was not a chance for "under pressure" to happen because Romo would throw the hot read 1.5 seconds have the ball was snapped.

Or, how often Dalton would come "under pressure" after holding the ball for 3-4 seconds.


He clearly had more opportunity/time to throw the ball.

As for the turnovers - according to ESPN -

Cincy had 30 turnovers and 3 Defensive TDs, Meaning 27 more chances for Dalton. you were Plus 4 on the year for give/takeaways

Dallas had 22 turnovers, and 3 TDs. We were -13 in give/takeaways


27 more chances to Dalton? Dalton threw the ball 528 times, while Romo threw the ball 648 times. Still not understanding the how turnovers come into play here? Not arguing the Bengals weren't better at it, just trying to understand the context.

As for how many times did Dalton hold on the ball too long? Dalton was heavily criticized by Jay Gruden (our OC) and many others early in the season for getting rid of the ball too quickly. Dalton had one of the fastest releases in the NFL until after the Steelers game (which was halfway into the season). Dalton tried holding onto the ball longer since then, but that didn't help (See Eagles game). So I wouldn't say a lot of those sacks/pressures were from him holding on the ball too long. That was probably the case for only 2-3 games this season and all of those recently.

Here is a link if you don't believe me: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/nfl-rapidreports/20696331/bengals-qb-andy-dalton-not-holding-the-ball-long-enough

The Bengals O-Line itself has been very up and down this season. We started the season with Jeff Fanine at Center who was signed off the street 13 days before the season opener because of injury. He was rated the worst center in the NFL and was terrible at giving Dalton a good pocket. The O-Line played much better after he was replaced but then the Bengals decided to put Kyle Cook in as the starting Center and now the O-Line looks bad again. Which is why the pressure numbers are closer than you think between the Cowboys and Bengals...
_________________


chris00cm wrote:
Lavelle Hawkins figures he's already cut, so YOLO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 36994
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I missed a portion of my second sentence. It should have said:

Quote:
incy had 30 turnovers and 3 Defensive TDs, Meaning 27 more chances for Dalton. you were Plus 4 on the year for give/takeaways

Dallas had 22 turnovers, and 3 TDs, meaning 19 more chances for Romo. We were -13 in give/takeaways


Either way, we will have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe that your oline is better. I think poor oline play had hurt Romo and the Cowboys. In fact, its with out question our biggest offensive issue.

Seriously, the only two things that have kept us from being a 10+ win team this season are:

1. Defensive injuries (where we had a historic amount and most in the league)
2. Offensive line play


I mean - look at the de facto NFC E Championship game. What was the Redskins plan?

Rush the ball a lot because we were on 4th string DL, LBs and Safeties
Blitz 80% of the time because our line sucks


I was **SHOCKED** that only the Redskins did this to use. Its why I predicted a loss in almost every game since S. Lee went down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheVillain112


Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 16056
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Either way, we will have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe that your oline is better.


I believe our O-Line is better as well, especially the Tackles. The problem is Dalton is much much worse than Romo under pressure, and the numbers seem to back that up...
_________________


chris00cm wrote:
Lavelle Hawkins figures he's already cut, so YOLO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 36994
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Either way, we will have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe that your oline is better.


I believe our O-Line is better as well, especially the Tackles. The problem is Dalton is much much worse than Romo under pressure, and the numbers seem to back that up...


Laughing

But thats not the point. .

Romo is better with no pressure than with pressure.
Dalton is better with no pressure than with pressure.

Romo gets pressured more; therefor Romo has less opportunity to shine at his very best. Dalton has more opportunity to shine at his very best.


Now, granted, Romo is better under pressure. But Dalton gets more opportunity in an ideal pocket than Romo does. That is the crux of my argument.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheVillain112


Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 16056
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Laughing

But thats not the point. .

Romo is better with no pressure than with pressure.
Dalton is better with no pressure than with pressure.

Romo gets pressured more; therefor Romo has less opportunity to shine at his very best. Dalton has more opportunity to shine at his very best.

Now, granted, Romo is better under pressure. But Dalton gets more opportunity in an ideal pocket than Romo does. That is the crux of my argument.


The problem is you can't have your cake and eat it to. You and Vandy keep pointing to "targets" that AJ Green is getting but when you see the pressure numbers for both QB's you try to dismiss it.

You can't claim that pressure numbers are flawed and that targets are not. I agree with your assessment that's it's easier for Dalton to shine if he's under pressure less. But he threw the ball 120 less times than Romo. So unless Romo was pressured 120 more times than Dalton, then I doubt he had less opportunities to shine. Romo also threw for 1,300 more yards than Dalton.

So Dez Bryant has 32 more yards than AJ Green but Romo threw for 1,300 more yards than Dalton. Wouldn't that indicate that AJ Green is much more of a focal point of our offense and thus defenses would concentrate on him more? Bengal fans (and other fans) are not trying to say "OMGZ AJ Green is soo much better than other WR's that defenses concentrate on him more sans Megatron". They are saying the Bengals don't have a lot other than Green that worries defenses so teams are going to concentrate on him more. Which makes it impressive that he's still able to produce the way he is...
_________________


chris00cm wrote:
Lavelle Hawkins figures he's already cut, so YOLO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 36994
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:
So Dez Bryant has 32 more yards than AJ Green but Romo threw for 1,300 more yards than Dalton. Wouldn't that indicate that AJ Green is much more of a focal point of our offense and thus defenses would concentrate on him more?


This is often a fallacy people come up with.

Greater Focal point = Greater Defensive concentration =>ONLY TO AN EXTENT<=


Once you reach a certain threshold, all defense's scheme a similar way (barring you have a D. Revis at CB). If you are a LEGIT #1 WR for the Bengals, you are getting the same treatment as a LEGIT #1 WR for the Texans/Broncos/Cowboys/Bears/Etc. In other words, teams don't all the sudden say "hey, instead of committing our best CB (with safety help) to Green, lets put our best 3 CBs on him + a Safety!!"... It just doesn't work that way.

Its very rare that you have an exception to that rule. I can think of few athletes that do - one would be a Calvin Johnson. For example, when we played him last year, we 'kind of' triple teamed him.

We had S. Lee bump him at the line. No one else was strong enough to jam him. Once released, it was your typical Double coverage - CB in the zone, Safety over the top.


But AJ isnt CJ. He gets the same schemes to take him out of a game as Dez does. They may play him differently (press vs off coverage).. but they are allocating the same amount of resources to him.


Anywho - Related:

Quote:
Below, Iíve created a numerical value for each lineman that rates their play respective to others in the NFL. The number is representative of the relationship between the pressures/sacks allowed by each player and the same stats for the top-10 players in the NFL at his position. A value of 1.0 means the linemanís pass protection was on par with other top-10 players at his position, while a value of 2.0 means he allowed twice as many pressures (or sacks) as the other top-tier players. Thus, the lower the number, the better.

LT Tyron Smith: 2.00 pressure rating, 0.74 sack rating = 2.74 pass protection rating

LG Nate Livings: 0.90 pressure rating, 2.13 sack rating = 3.03 pass protection rating

C Ryan Cook: 1.38 pressure rating, 1.16 sack rating = 2.54 pass protection rating

RG Mackenzy Bernadeau: 1.57 pressure rating, 2.53 sack rating = 4.10 pass protection rating

RT Doug Free: 1.63 pressure rating, 1.27 sack rating = 2.90 pass protection rating

Remember, a lower value is better. In comparison to others around the league, the Cowboysí worst offensive lineman in 2012 (in terms of pass protection) was Bernadeau, and it wasnít even really close. Bernadeau allowed 18 fewer pressures and one fewer sack than Free, but he also played the far less demanding right guard position. The average top-10 guard in 2012 yielded only 13 pressures and just two sacks, putting Bernadeauís numbers in perspective.

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/article-JonathanBales/Running-the-Numbers-Cowboys-Need-to-Address-Offensive-Line-/4c55c3b8-db1f-46ac-b082-ecf8b3cc7397
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 36994
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:
You can't claim that pressure numbers are flawed and that targets are not. I agree with your assessment that's it's easier for Dalton to shine if he's under pressure less. But he threw the ball 120 less times than Romo. So unless Romo was pressured 120 more times than Dalton, then I doubt he had less opportunities to shine. Romo also threw for 1,300 more yards than Dalton.


Im not going to beat a dead horse here - but I will say this:

This is where the "You have a running game, so Green sees less safety help" argument would come in. Everyone knew we were throwing the ball. NOBODY stacked the box against us. We had the lowest rushing totals in FRANCHISE history this year.. Again, due to a horrid oline.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheVillain112


Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 16056
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Its very rare that you have an exception to that rule. I can think of few athletes that do - one would be a Calvin Johnson. For example, when we played him last year, we 'kind of' triple teamed him.

We had S. Lee bump him at the line. No one else was strong enough to jam him. Once released, it was your typical Double coverage - CB in the zone, Safety over the top.

But AJ isnt CJ. He gets the same schemes to take him out of a game as Dez does. They may play him differently (press vs off coverage).. but they are allocating the same amount of resources to him.


Except that is what teams do to AJ Green:
Quote:
"When you go back and look at the stats and see A.J. Green with one catch, it bothers you quite a bit," said offensive coordinator Jay Gruden.

Pittsburgh deserves most of the credit. In addition to having cornerback Ike Taylor shadow Green on every play, - LeBeau gave Taylor linebacker help on short routes and safety help on deeper routes.

"They were buzzing safeties over the top or buzzing linebackers on some of the underneath stuff," said Green. "They did a great job - hats off to them. Ike Taylor played a hell of a game. He's a great player and has been in the league for a long time."

The Steelers weren't the first team to roll their coverage toward Green and they obviously won't be the last

http://m.bengals.com/s/30838/174?itemUri=1650293764%2F12714891334781431511615218


So a #1 CB in Ike Taylor, with LBs underneath and a Safety over the top. There are other post games comments from Jay Gruden about how teams roll their coverage over to AJ Green to try and take him away. It's why like Megatron, you'll see AJ Green line up in the slot or motion to try and counter it.

I just provided you with details of coverage that you claim only Megatron gets. If you want to keep ignoring it that's fine. And for the O-Line argument, I agree your O-Line is much worse. I'll concede that...
_________________


chris00cm wrote:
Lavelle Hawkins figures he's already cut, so YOLO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 36994
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:

So a #1 CB in Ike Taylor, with LBs underneath and a Safety over the top. There are other post games comments from Jay Gruden about how teams roll their coverage over to AJ Green to try and take him away. It's why like Megatron, you'll see AJ Green line up in the slot or motion to try and counter it.


I am not ignoring it. I read it and understand it. It looks like the Steelers went out of their way to take him out of the game - which is a smart choice since Green is a great WR. I have those games on replay, I might go back and see how much of that was standard zone and how much was moving the LB out of position to help. Either way, I get your point.


To clarify, I am not saying the Calvin Johnson is the only WR who sees complex systems to take him out of the game. What I should have emphasized is that Calvin Johnson is rare that almost every team will adjust their scheme to account for him.

AJ will get special consideration. Just like most elite WRs.

Calvin Johnson will get entire defensive game plans with the sole purpose of limiting him.



Instead of arguing the little details, let me ask you this:

1. Do you think that teams play significantly different against AJ Green and Dez Bryant?

2. If so, why do you think that?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TheVillain112


Moderator
Joined: 19 Feb 2010
Posts: 16056
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Instead of arguing the little details, let me ask you this:

1. Do you think that teams play significantly different against AJ Green and Dez Bryant?

2. If so, why do you think that?


1. Not sure I would say significantly but a good amount different. Both get #1 CB attention, but I think AJ Green gets more shadowing and more double coverage. Honestly Dez would as well if he replaced AJ Green in the Bengals offense.

2. Already listed why, as have many other posters who are not Bengal fans. And it's not just Cowboy hate, take a look at the numerous AJ Green vs. Julio Jones threads. Posters say the same thing there. But again here are the reasons why:

Reason #1: Andy Dalton - Unlike Romo, Brady, Manning, Brees, etc... he's not good enough (yet) to beat you if you take away his #1 receiver. Romo can make Ogletree or Laurent Robinson look good. Dalton can't. Teams know that, so they know they need to concentrate more on taking away his #1 option.

Reason #2. No viable #2 option - Sanu started to step up into that role, but then got hurt and was lost for the season. Sanu ended the season with 16 catches and 154 yards. And he was our most effective #2 option this season. What does that tell you? Hawkins has been good, but at 5'6, Dalton doesn't have the accuracy to fully take advantage of him.

Gresham is a guy that if he was more consistent, he would be that viable #2. I think he can get there but he's just not there yet. Jason Witten has 147 targets and 6 drops this season. Gresham has 94 targets and 6 drops.

Bengals are a young team on offense trying to develop. Cowboys have had Romo, Witten, Garrett for how long? They don't need to rely on Dez as much as the Bengals rely on Green. Bengals will get there, but they are not there yet...
_________________


chris00cm wrote:
Lavelle Hawkins figures he's already cut, so YOLO.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kiei7


Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 895
Location: CA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheVillain112 wrote:
So Dez Bryant has 32 more yards than AJ Green but Romo threw for 1,300 more yards than Dalton. Wouldn't that indicate that AJ Green is much more of a focal point of our offense and thus defenses would concentrate on him more? Bengal fans (and other fans) are not trying to say "OMGZ AJ Green is soo much better than other WR's that defenses concentrate on him more sans Megatron". They are saying the Bengals don't have a lot other than Green that worries defenses so teams are going to concentrate on him more. Which makes it impressive that he's still able to produce the way he is...


Don't you think the "He's the only offensive threat" argument is the same as the "He has player X and player Y taking chances away from him" argument? Wouldn't you consider that a wash?
_________________
mse326 wrote:
Fired-Up wrote:

Yes, but he won the super bowl.

Seriously I've never seen anyone as wrong as you all the time. The fact that you have knocked Skip Bayless off that perch has brought great shame upon this website.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 20180
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would definitely say (and this is somewhat from my watching the Ravens play both Dallas AND Cinci this year) AJ Green requires more double coverage than Dez does.

When the Ravens played Dallas, we doubled Witten (we failed at it, but we tried). We left Cary Williams 1v1 on Dez on the left side of the field.

When the Ravens played AJ Green, we almost ALWAYS gave safety help. Don't believe me? Go to NFL.com and watch the most recent Cinci vs. Baltimore playbook and they break down all the safety help we give our corners against AJ Green and nobody else.
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NextBigThing


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 21375
Location: Beat Of My Own Drum
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is green for both, but Dez is a beast.

canadiansbronco wrote:
Dez isn't even better than DT


LOL no
_________________
http://i61.tinypic.com/2d27zep.jpg
^credit to whoever made it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jarren


Joined: 14 Jan 2007
Posts: 177
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mounimonster wrote:
Dez is much better from a pure talent perspective than JJ and DT. That is not even debatable. Statistics is another story and Dez is still better than them statistically. The only close comparison here is Dez vs AJ.


Julio's bigger, faster, stronger than Dez and not to mention hes only in his second year and receives less targets than Dez.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> NFL Comparisons All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next
Page 11 of 15

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group