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Panthers to fire HC Ron Rivera; Update: staying next season
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Zithers


Joined: 15 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But we didnt fail to execute the prevent over and over and over. So I dont know what your point is.


we must have been watching different games then. because i distinctly remember shutting the bucs down only for them to carve us up for 11 points as our second matchup ended. brandon marshall and jay cutler connecting 4 times in a row to set up robbie gould for a GW field goal. and we won the game last week but going from 41-24 to 44-38 in five minutes is not a good thing if you ask me.

Quote:
They could easily stop us if we remained one dimensional and didnt look to keep defenses honest and off balance by doing things they dont expect. Its a pretty basic concept. Surprised you can see how easy it is to win games, but that basic strategic concept seems to escape you.


mike tolbert had 7 rushing TDs this season. all of them were either 1 or 2 yards. cam had 8 rushing TDs on the year. all but one were within 5 yards. only had 3 TD passes within 5 yards. seems like we can be as one dimensional as we want considering we averaged nearly 1 goalline rush TD per game.

Quote:
Because running 3 and outs the entire 4th quarter is going to win us a ton of games. Too bad you arent our coach.


not the entire 4th quarter. for one drive. with six minutes left. and we're winning.

Quote:

Its not about being content with mediocrity. Its about not spazzing out because I cant get the instant gratification I want.


not looking for instant gratification either. i want a full season of being competitive. not this 2-8 stuff. i want the offense and defense to be rolling on all cylinders at the same time. i want special teams to improve. i want our coordinators to not rewrite the playbook when the old stuff was working. i want to go for the other team's throat on defense for 60 minutes, not play soft. but these are things we can't have with ron rivera.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
we must have been watching different games then. because i distinctly remember shutting the bucs down only for them to carve us up for 11 points as our second matchup ended. brandon marshall and jay cutler connecting 4 times in a row to set up robbie gould for a GW field goal. and we won the game last week but going from 41-24 to 44-38 in five minutes is not a good thing if you ask me.


So if teams threw on us late and won, its because we were playing the prevent and it "never works." But if we played it late and it worked, it... still... didnt work. Or we, still, didnt execute it correctly. Am I ngetting this right?

So we didnt play any prevent in any of our other wins? If we did, did we execute correctly?

Quote:
mike tolbert had 7 rushing TDs this season. all of them were either 1 or 2 yards. cam had 8 rushing TDs on the year. all but one were within 5 yards. only had 3 TD passes within 5 yards. seems like we can be as one dimensional as we want considering we averaged nearly 1 goalline rush TD per game.


What arent you understanding? Part of the reason for that success is because we were occasionally passing the ball in goal line situations. We werent being one dimensional. We forced teams to play us honest. How are you not understanding how that works? Its so unbelievably fundamental.

Quote:
not the entire 4th quarter. for one drive. with six minutes left. and we're winning.


Ah, because a 3 and out THEN would have sealed the deal, right?

Love how you want us to go for the throat, and want us to not get conservative, but in this instance, conservative is what should have been called because conservative is what would have totally won us the game. Youre the epitome of a monday morning qb. Dude, every call is easy to make with the benefit of hindsight.

Quote:
not looking for instant gratification either. i want a full season of being competitive. not this 2-8 stuff. i want the offense and defense to be rolling on all cylinders at the same time. i want special teams to improve. i want our coordinators to not rewrite the playbook when the old stuff was working. i want to go for the other team's throat on defense for 60 minutes, not play soft. but these are things we can't have with ron rivera.


Of course you are looking for instant gratification. Because you want all that 2 seasons after a 2 win season and are convinced if the coach hasnt given it to you by now, he never will.
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

So if teams threw on us late and won, its because we were playing the prevent and it "never works." But if we played it late and it worked, it... still... didnt work. Or we, still, didnt execute it correctly. Am I getting this right?


prevent never works in wins for us. it lost us the bucs and bears games. it made the saints game last week WAY too close. and i don't think any of the other offenses we beat could have scored against an empty field.

i mean, rivera even admitted that using prevent was a mistake (and that sean mcdermott didn't want to do it) against the bears because he thought brandon marshall was going to torch us for a 50 yard touchdown or something. instead they just nickel and dimed us 10-15 yards at a time to let gould kick the winner. but of course, even though he said it was a mistake, he did it against the bucs. i don't think our defense ever looked softer than against them. good god.

Quote:
What arent you understanding? Part of the reason for that success is because we were occasionally passing the ball in goal line situations. We werent being one dimensional. We forced teams to play us honest. How are you not understanding how that works? Its so unbelievably fundamental.


no, i get that. we can pass when we're close. but not when the game is on the line like against seattle. that makes no sense. we are infinitely better at, and have a better chance at, getting the 7 when we pound it up the middle. which i illustrated for you so kindly in the previous post.

Quote:
Ah, because a 3 and out THEN would have sealed the deal, right?

Love how you want us to go for the throat, and want us to not get conservative, but in this instance, conservative is what should have been called because conservative is what would have totally won us the game. Youre the epitome of a monday morning qb. Dude, every call is easy to make with the benefit of hindsight.


i said go for the throat on defense. not offense.

Quote:

Of course you are looking for instant gratification. Because you want all that 2 seasons after a 2 win season and are convinced if the coach hasnt given it to you by now, he never will.


nope. i just think he sucks as a coach. like i've been pointing out, he makes the same mistakes over and over. he's 2-12 in one score games (would be 1-12 if he didn't go into prevent mode against the saints last week). both years we started out 2-8. something like 10 of ron's 13 wins have come after we were already eliminated from the playoffs. i didn't see us beating any good teams convincingly. maybe he'll prove me wrong next year, but as for right now, i don't see a single thing that suggests he'll make us a winning team in 2013.
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GeneralTso


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not worth firing Rivera if you don't think someone is better out there.
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DaveDX


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

billy hoyal wrote:
Zithers wrote:


you think JR will find a GM with a backbone... after he's already decided who the coach is for himself? LMFAO.

we're gonna get another yes man just like hurney.


I posted this on the Panther forum in response to those beating the "Fire Rivera" drum. It's pointed towards Panther fans mainly. Too lazy to type it all again.


What GM candidate has the resume' that should give him the right to choose a HC right away. All of these possible GM's are going to be given their first GM job. I'm sure that it's been made clear to Rivera that there has to be more improvement next year(9-7 at worst), or changes will be made. It's not like the GM won't be able to get rid of him if the season goes bad. I'd much rather have a rookie GM just focus on the roster and fixing cap issues and not have to build an entire staff while he could be evaluating players. He's going to have make enough tough choices with our own players, while finding FA's and draft pick's. The new GM isn't stuck with him forever. Rivera gets another year, which he deserves.

Rivera took over a 2-14 team, with a one-month off-season, and a rookie QB who 90% of this board(including you) wanted no part of. He went 6-10 and was in all but 2 games, with the 5th best offense in the league. Pretty good for a team that couldn't get a 1st down in 2010. Plus, he lost Beason, Davis, immediately. Otah fell apart. That's 3 pro-bowl caliber players that he didn't have on top off all the other problems. Only Davis has been back.

This year was frustrating. No doubt. Chud overplayed the "zone-read" portion of the offense in the 1st half, and it failed. Losing Kalil, and a rookie LG playing like a rookie(1 good play...2 bad ones) didn't help. Once he corrected his obvious mistake, everything got much better. Now Chud's only problem is some situational play-calling that can be easily corrected. Much easier than a whole new offensive system with no guarantee it would be any better. After watching what happened with the over-use of the zone-read plays in the first half, I can't believe that any of our fans want anything to do with Chip Kelly. And the DEF improved over the course of the entire season., to a top 10-15 level. Even with numerous injuries.

So what coach was gonna be an improvement? Enough of one that would justify getting rid of a coach who has shown improvement in both seasons, and has had only 17 months with this team. I understand if they just kept playing like they were in the first half of the season, but every area of the team played a very good second half of the season. Doesn't matter who they played. If they were good you would just say they weren't trying. Rivera has made mistakes, no doubt. But he's also done plenty of good.

Bottom-line, you don't fire a coach without knowing who the next coach is going to be. And I don't see anyone who would be a guaranteed improvement over Rivera and his entire staff. Especially considering the team would have to start over with completely different schemes on both sides of the ball. Giving Rivera another year was the right decision. Think back to the days following the 2011 draft. What sort of expectations did any of you have for the next 2 years. Keep in mind that most of you thought Cam was a mistake. Would 6-10 and 7-9 been a reasonable when he started. I have a hard time believing that there were many of you that thought this team could get to those records with a project QB coming off a 2-14 season. Judge Rivera by his entire body of work and where it started at.


I like this guy. /Gruden
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El ramster


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fear for Jpeps liver..
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Cypher


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
i expect the panthers to run the ball with their billion dollar backfield on the goalline (or any short yard situation). it makes sense. it has an incredibly high chance of working, as we've seen over the past two years.


1st and 6 at SEA 6 (Shotgun) C.Newton right end to SEA 3 for 3 yards (E.Thomas).
Timeout #1 by CAR at 05:18.
2nd and 3 at SEA 3 D.Williams up the middle to SEA 6 for -3 yards (C.Clemons; A.Branch).
3rd and 6 at SEA 6 (Shotgun) C.Newton pass short left to L.Murphy to SEA 1 for 5 yards (M.Trufant; B.Browner).
4th and 1 at SEA 1 C.Newton pass incomplete short middle to B.Hartsock.

We DID run it with Williams and Cam, and the Seattle D absolutely stuffed it. The running game did nothing against Seattle. I was actually in the stands right behind the end-zone on that drive. The play calling was bad, but Cam's worm burner was worse.
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Strawman Theory


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron Rivera is interesting because you see his defense at times exhibit the same tendencies that great defenses do, aggressive, fast and quick to the ball. At other times he just gets so caught up in playing statistically safe plays. Quite an enigma for a D coordinator. I definitely understand not giving up on him after 2 years.
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RuskieTitan


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terrible decision, my father also agrees.

This team has the talent to win 10+ games a year, and should have done so this season.

It comes down to coaches sucking late in the game, and they needed to remove him.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zithers wrote:
prevent never works in wins for us. it lost us the bucs and bears games. it made the saints game last week WAY too close. and i don't think any of the other offenses we beat could have scored against an empty field.


Got it. The prevent never works for us. Even in wins. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
i mean, rivera even admitted that using prevent was a mistake (and that sean mcdermott didn't want to do it) against the bears because he thought brandon marshall was going to torch us for a 50 yard touchdown or something. instead they just nickel and dimed us 10-15 yards at a time to let gould kick the winner. but of course, even though he said it was a mistake, he did it against the bucs. i don't think our defense ever looked softer than against them. good god.


So he adjusted in an effort to avoid what happened in the Atlanta game? But it didnt work. So it was a terrible decision. Got it.

Quote:
no, i get that. we can pass when we're close. but not when the game is on the line like against seattle. that makes no sense. we are infinitely better at, and have a better chance at, getting the 7 when we pound it up the middle. which i illustrated for you so kindly in the previous post.


We did run it. Which Cypher so kindly illustrated in a previous post. We ran it. They clearly were expecting it. And they stuffed the hell out of it. And if Rivera continued with what wasnt working, you would have criticized him for continuing with what wasnt working.

Quote:
i said go for the throat on defense. not offense.


Fair enough. You want three and outs on offense with the game on the line.

Quote:
nope. i just think he sucks as a coach. like i've been pointing out, he makes the same mistakes over and over. he's 2-12 in one score games (would be 1-12 if he didn't go into prevent mode against the saints last week). both years we started out 2-8. something like 10 of ron's 13 wins have come after we were already eliminated from the playoffs. i didn't see us beating any good teams convincingly. maybe he'll prove me wrong next year, but as for right now, i don't see a single thing that suggests he'll make us a winning team in 2013.


Its amazing how a guy makes the same mistakes over the first 6 or seven games of the season, adjusts the rest of the season to avoid those mistakes, see's improvement on both sides of the ball because of those adjustments, and is accused of being unable to adjust his game plan to avoid the same costly mistakes.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RuskieTitan wrote:
Terrible decision, my father also agrees.

This team has the talent to win 10+ games a year, and should have done so this season.

It comes down to coaches sucking late in the game, and they needed to remove him.


We are not a 10+ win team. Not with any coach. Not with the players we have. Not with the schedule we had. No.

You give us the Colts schedule, maybe we can talk.
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Cypher


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I look back at that Seattle game, and I really sit down and analyze what happened, I honestly don't give a damn about that last drive. It pales in comparison to the fact that in 55 minutes we couldn't put it in the endzone on offense once. One TD puts the game at a tie to close it. One TD along with the field goal is a win. 55 minutes. Defense spotted the offense 9 points, literally TRIPLED their production, held Seattle to 16, and the offense still somehow put on one of the most pathetic, lax, uninspired, charmin soft performances I have ever seen.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cypher wrote:
When I look back at that Seattle game, and I really sit down and analyze what happened, I honestly don't give a damn about that last drive. It pales in comparison to the fact that in 55 minutes we couldn't put it in the endzone on offense once. One TD puts the game at a tie to close it. One TD along with the field goal is a win. 55 minutes. Defense spotted the offense 9 points, literally TRIPLED their production, held Seattle to 16, and the offense still somehow put on one of the most pathetic, lax, uninspired, charmin soft performances I have ever seen.


While I agree the offense cost us the game, particularly Newton missing a throw he should have made, Chudzinski only gave 11 attempts to our backs. Most of those were the zone read option. So when you make little to no effort to establish the run game and rely on your (at the time) struggling/inconsistent young QB behind a makeshift offensive line against Seattle's secondary, it's really hard to expect positive results.

I said in Carolina forum. I think keeping Rivera was the right move unless we felt we could get a guy who might possibly be that much better of a candidate. Still not sure yet I believe in him as a coach but the players love him and we don't need to mess up that chemistry. I just hope he truly has become better at second half adjustments, clock management, and prevents Chudzinski from going bananas with his playcalling.
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Last edited by iknowcool on Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carolina fans will be pissed Laughing
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Zithers


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Got it. The prevent never works for us. Even in wins. Rolling Eyes


i'll take everything i said about the prevent back if you can show me any close wins where we played the prevent/cover 4 and actually prevented a team from scoring several times in the final minutes to take the lead or make it heart-stoppingly close. i'll concede if you can name three instances (more than the two that i keep harping on about).

Quote:
So he adjusted in an effort to avoid what happened in the Atlanta game? But it didnt work. So it was a terrible decision. Got it.


did i say we used prevent against the falcons? i don't recall doing so and if i did... well i must have made a mistake.

Quote:
We did run it. Which Cypher so kindly illustrated in a previous post. We ran it. They clearly were expecting it. And they stuffed the hell out of it. And if Rivera continued with what wasnt working, you would have criticized him for continuing with what wasnt working.


and i still believe we should have run it again. and as iknowcool said, we should have been running more to begin with. and not out of the option. thankfully, we have rivera there to make sure we do crap that doesn't make sense until we're already out of the playoff hunt. maybe if we had a more balanced attack... say, a pro style offense with some option-y stuff put in. play action and whatnot. maybe that would have fooled seattle a bit prior, so we wouldn't have been in that position in the first place. oh wait... that's hindsight. i guess i'm a monday morning QB for stating the obvious... that running the option as your only run play is stupid. sorry. i'll try to refrain from that in future posts. everything rivera does is a good idea!!!

Quote:
Fair enough. You want three and outs on offense with the game on the line.


i'd rather chew out the clock and trust my defense (who had suffocated the bears offense the entire game [until we played prevent]). difference of philosophy i guess. you'd rather lose and i want to win.

Quote:
Its amazing how a guy makes the same mistakes over the first 6 or seven games of the season, adjusts the rest of the season to avoid those mistakes, see's improvement on both sides of the ball because of those adjustments, and is accused of being unable to adjust his game plan to avoid the same costly mistakes.


yeah, same thing happened last year. fool's gold. we beat a bunch of bad teams down the stretch again. rivera still pulled out the cover 4 for the saints. i don't see someone who will consistently put W's on the table.
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