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How I believe the Lions season will play out.
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SadLionFan00


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone knows Jones' career will last about 5 seasons.

Remember Marcus McNeill? He was great until his condition (same as Jones') caught up.

If doctors think Jones can give us 5 years, then Im all for taking him, because I think were built to win in the next 5 years.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
Fair enough. As a fan I simply don't want to see the Lions take on the risk.

I understand your thought process on the Doctors etc. The original reports I read stated USC Doctors found nerve damage. I can't speak to the qualifications of the Doctors that cleared him but we do know the USC Doctors are top notch.

If you google cervical stenosis degeneration it should point you in the right direction.

The medical opinion of the first specialist who said he could return to football is interesting. Obviously something is a miss when a neck sprain kept him out the last five games.

Personally the issue in my mind isn't being cleared but the diagnosis. Does he or doesn't he have spinal stenosis?

It's unfortunate because he is one heck of a football player. The type of impact player the Lions could certainly use.

Like I've said, this is all from Jarvis too, so it's entirely possible he's not telling the whole truth. From what he said though, it sounds like the actual neurologist he was sent to cleared him, but the team doctors (I would assume none of them are neurologists) were the ones who refused to clear him. It isn't clear, but it is entirely possible the neurologist would have let him play at some point in the last 5 games, but the team doctors just weren't willing to sign off on it.

I think he clearly has some form of spinal stenosis, but the question is where and how bad. Even if it is in his neck, if it is truly a mild case, it could just be that'll he'll be more susceptible to injuries like stingers, but the actual difference between him being forced to retire due to the condition is only marginally higher then any other NFL player. I think there is a pretty good chance Jarvis is telling the truth with regards to that. If it really was such a big risk, I can't imagine why he would have returned for the 2012 season instead of going to the NFL and getting paid for the small window of time that he can. That, combined with the fact that he hasn't had a single problem with the neck the last 2 seasons makes me think there is a chance it won't necessarily be an issue that prematurely ends his career.

As for the Lions, it might not make sense for them to take him, especially given that he's been thriving in a completely different scheme. I actually think Ogletree could very well be a better fit for their system than Jones (and having watched both I think there is a decent chance Ogletree ends up the better player), but that's a discussion for another thread.


I hope he didn't just see a neurologist for spinal stenosis. I would certainly get the opinion of an orthopedic spine specialist.

I expect the USC medical team has a number of specialists on staff and they would also have access to the USC medical centre which is top notch.

I think any diagnosis of stenosis greatly increases risk. It's hard to know why an individual makes the decisions they make. He may have returned simply based on his belief he can raise his draft stock. He had completed a year of injury free ball at the NCAA level so he may have simply felt he could complete another. I don't know where he would have projected last year but he is in line for a huge payday with big guaranteed money if he goes top five.

His situation is one of the more interesting draft stories this year. I'm very interested to see where he is drafted and how his medical affects his draft position, if it does.

I expect he will be selected by a team that can afford the risk of selecting him.

These types of decisions must be terribly difficult for GM's. I keep looking back at Jahvid Best.
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Nnivolcm


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
Everyone knows Jones' career will last about 5 seasons.

Remember Marcus McNeill? He was great until his condition (same as Jones') caught up.

If doctors think Jones can give us 5 years, then Im all for taking him, because I think were built to win in the next 5 years.


Really? From what I've heard anyone with his condition has significant risk of having his career ended with one bad hit.
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nixa37


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
Fair enough. As a fan I simply don't want to see the Lions take on the risk.

I understand your thought process on the Doctors etc. The original reports I read stated USC Doctors found nerve damage. I can't speak to the qualifications of the Doctors that cleared him but we do know the USC Doctors are top notch.

If you google cervical stenosis degeneration it should point you in the right direction.

The medical opinion of the first specialist who said he could return to football is interesting. Obviously something is a miss when a neck sprain kept him out the last five games.

Personally the issue in my mind isn't being cleared but the diagnosis. Does he or doesn't he have spinal stenosis?

It's unfortunate because he is one heck of a football player. The type of impact player the Lions could certainly use.

Like I've said, this is all from Jarvis too, so it's entirely possible he's not telling the whole truth. From what he said though, it sounds like the actual neurologist he was sent to cleared him, but the team doctors (I would assume none of them are neurologists) were the ones who refused to clear him. It isn't clear, but it is entirely possible the neurologist would have let him play at some point in the last 5 games, but the team doctors just weren't willing to sign off on it.

I think he clearly has some form of spinal stenosis, but the question is where and how bad. Even if it is in his neck, if it is truly a mild case, it could just be that'll he'll be more susceptible to injuries like stingers, but the actual difference between him being forced to retire due to the condition is only marginally higher then any other NFL player. I think there is a pretty good chance Jarvis is telling the truth with regards to that. If it really was such a big risk, I can't imagine why he would have returned for the 2012 season instead of going to the NFL and getting paid for the small window of time that he can. That, combined with the fact that he hasn't had a single problem with the neck the last 2 seasons makes me think there is a chance it won't necessarily be an issue that prematurely ends his career.

As for the Lions, it might not make sense for them to take him, especially given that he's been thriving in a completely different scheme. I actually think Ogletree could very well be a better fit for their system than Jones (and having watched both I think there is a decent chance Ogletree ends up the better player), but that's a discussion for another thread.


I hope he didn't just see a neurologist for spinal stenosis. I would certainly get the opinion of an orthopedic spine specialist.

I expect the USC medical team has a number of specialists on staff and they would also have access to the USC medical centre which is top notch.

I think any diagnosis of stenosis greatly increases risk. It's hard to know why an individual makes the decisions they make. He may have returned simply based on his belief he can raise his draft stock. He had completed a year of injury free ball at the NCAA level so he may have simply felt he could complete another. I don't know where he would have projected last year but he is in line for a huge payday with big guaranteed money if he goes top five.

His situation is one of the more interesting draft stories this year. I'm very interested to see where he is drafted and how his medical affects his draft position, if it does.

I expect he will be selected by a team that can afford the risk of selecting him.

These types of decisions must be terribly difficult for GM's. I keep looking back at Jahvid Best.

Neurosurgeon maybe? I know that's who my dad was seeing when he went through both back and neck surgery for spinal stenosis. I think you're misunderstanding who wouldn't clear Jarvis. The football medical staff would be the ones who referred him to the specialist (probably someone at USC Medical Center). That person cleared him, but the football medical staff (I think these would generally be orthopedic doctors, not specialists, as the can just refer athletes to specialists), wouldn't clear him. It could have been an insurance thing. It could have been worries about later being sued if something were to happen. I don't know, but my understanding is that it wasn't a specialist that was refusing to clear him. That's why he was so frustrated with the situation.

A diagnosis of spinal stenosis does not necessarily increase risk all that much. It all comes down to how much narrowing there is. Researchers have even found that certain athletes who have experienced an episode of temporary quadriplegia due to spinal stenosis can return to contact sports without an increased risk of permanent nerve damage (LINK). Insurance companies approve athletes to return to contact sports even after some spinal stenosis diagnoses. They wouldn't do that with a significantly increased risk.

FWIW, Jones was projected as a top 10-15 pick last season (obviously ignoring health questions). It was actually seen as a bit of a surprise that he chose to return. I do think playing another season without the condition being a problem probably did make him more money, I just don't think it is something he would have done if there were serious worries that his career was at risk to end any game (it's not like he could get reasonable insurance for that sort of thing either if it was that bad).

It will be interesting to see where he goes. It is entirely possible that he sees his stock free fall. I also think it's possible he's gone before the Lions even make their pick. I was just getting tired of everybody assuming they knew what the situation actually was and that it was definitely a huge risk. I just don't think that is certain yet.

EDIT: I looked it up on the Mayo Clinic website, and neurologists are definitely involved in diagnosing and treating spinal stenosis, which makes sense as the spine is part of the nervous system. Orthopedic doctors can also be involved.


Last edited by nixa37 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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nixa37


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nnivolcm wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
Everyone knows Jones' career will last about 5 seasons.

Remember Marcus McNeill? He was great until his condition (same as Jones') caught up.

If doctors think Jones can give us 5 years, then Im all for taking him, because I think were built to win in the next 5 years.


Really? From what I've heard anyone with his condition has significant risk of having his career ended with one bad hit.

Everybody is at risk for that. The question is how much more at risk is he than the average player. That entirely comes down to how much narrowing of the spine there is. Not that the person you're responding to is correct or anything, but I think there are a lot of misconceptions about spinal stenosis because the only examples people are aware of are the worst case scenarios.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
Everyone knows Jones' career will last about 5 seasons.

Remember Marcus McNeill? He was great until his condition (same as Jones') caught up.

If doctors think Jones can give us 5 years, then Im all for taking him, because I think were built to win in the next 5 years.


Really?

How does everyone know that?
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
Fair enough. As a fan I simply don't want to see the Lions take on the risk.

I understand your thought process on the Doctors etc. The original reports I read stated USC Doctors found nerve damage. I can't speak to the qualifications of the Doctors that cleared him but we do know the USC Doctors are top notch.

If you google cervical stenosis degeneration it should point you in the right direction.

The medical opinion of the first specialist who said he could return to football is interesting. Obviously something is a miss when a neck sprain kept him out the last five games.

Personally the issue in my mind isn't being cleared but the diagnosis. Does he or doesn't he have spinal stenosis?

It's unfortunate because he is one heck of a football player. The type of impact player the Lions could certainly use.

Like I've said, this is all from Jarvis too, so it's entirely possible he's not telling the whole truth. From what he said though, it sounds like the actual neurologist he was sent to cleared him, but the team doctors (I would assume none of them are neurologists) were the ones who refused to clear him. It isn't clear, but it is entirely possible the neurologist would have let him play at some point in the last 5 games, but the team doctors just weren't willing to sign off on it.

I think he clearly has some form of spinal stenosis, but the question is where and how bad. Even if it is in his neck, if it is truly a mild case, it could just be that'll he'll be more susceptible to injuries like stingers, but the actual difference between him being forced to retire due to the condition is only marginally higher then any other NFL player. I think there is a pretty good chance Jarvis is telling the truth with regards to that. If it really was such a big risk, I can't imagine why he would have returned for the 2012 season instead of going to the NFL and getting paid for the small window of time that he can. That, combined with the fact that he hasn't had a single problem with the neck the last 2 seasons makes me think there is a chance it won't necessarily be an issue that prematurely ends his career.

As for the Lions, it might not make sense for them to take him, especially given that he's been thriving in a completely different scheme. I actually think Ogletree could very well be a better fit for their system than Jones (and having watched both I think there is a decent chance Ogletree ends up the better player), but that's a discussion for another thread.


I hope he didn't just see a neurologist for spinal stenosis. I would certainly get the opinion of an orthopedic spine specialist.

I expect the USC medical team has a number of specialists on staff and they would also have access to the USC medical centre which is top notch.

I think any diagnosis of stenosis greatly increases risk. It's hard to know why an individual makes the decisions they make. He may have returned simply based on his belief he can raise his draft stock. He had completed a year of injury free ball at the NCAA level so he may have simply felt he could complete another. I don't know where he would have projected last year but he is in line for a huge payday with big guaranteed money if he goes top five.

His situation is one of the more interesting draft stories this year. I'm very interested to see where he is drafted and how his medical affects his draft position, if it does.

I expect he will be selected by a team that can afford the risk of selecting him.

These types of decisions must be terribly difficult for GM's. I keep looking back at Jahvid Best.

Neurosurgeon maybe? I know that's who my dad was seeing when he went through both back and neck surgery for spinal stenosis. I think you're misunderstanding who wouldn't clear Jarvis. The football medical staff would be the ones who referred him to the specialist (probably someone at USC Medical Center). That person cleared him, but the football medical staff (I think these would generally be orthopedic doctors, not specialists, as the can just refer athletes to specialists), wouldn't clear him. It could have been an insurance thing. It could have been worries about later being sued if something were to happen. I don't know, but my understanding is that it wasn't a specialist that was refusing to clear him. That's why he was so frustrated with the situation.

A diagnosis of spinal stenosis does not necessarily increase risk all that much. It all comes down to how much narrowing there is. Researchers have even found that certain athletes who have experienced an episode of temporary quadriplegia due to spinal stenosis can return to contact sports without an increased risk of permanent nerve damage (LINK). Insurance companies approve athletes to return to contact sports even after some spinal stenosis diagnoses. They wouldn't do that with a significantly increased risk.

FWIW, Jones was projected as a top 10-15 pick last season (obviously ignoring health questions). It was actually seen as a bit of a surprise that he chose to return. I do think playing another season without the condition being a problem probably did make him more money, I just don't think it is something he would have done if there were serious worries that his career was at risk to end any game (it's not like he could get reasonable insurance for that sort of thing either if it was that bad).

It will be interesting to see where he goes. It is entirely possible that he sees his stock free fall. I also think it's possible he's gone before the Lions even make their pick. I was just getting tired of everybody assuming they knew what the situation actually was and that it was definitely a huge risk. I just don't think that is certain yet.

EDIT: I looked it up on the Mayo Clinic website, and neurologists are definitely involved in diagnosing and treating spinal stenosis, which makes sense as the spine is part of the nervous system. Orthopedic doctors can also be involved.


I'm not misunderstanding anything. He found himself in a hospital. No mention of why he was in the hospital days later. The article refers to a specialist yet doesn't mention his specialization.

The injury occurred against Oregon on Halloween in 2009. By all accounts, it was a routine hit, but after staying on the turf for a few seconds, he was removed from the game. Within days, he found himself in the hospital, where a specialist told him he had a "mild" case of spinal stenosis, a narrowing of the spinal column. "I've seen this over and over again," Jones remembers the doctor saying. "If you play the game long enough, things like this will happen."

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8448679/georgia-bulldogs-lb-jarvis-jones-long-journey-back-field-espn-magazine

I really don't want to be argumentative but there is no mention of the Doctors name or specialization. It doesn't mention why he was in the hospital days later or provide the name of the hospital. The article is quoting Jones as he remembers the situation.

I can't find a single Doctors quotes or comments on anything relating to Jones condition.

In reading your post you seem to be assuming that the team referred him to the specialist. I don't think that's the case. If you notice the article says," within days he FOUND himself in hospital."

My turn to assume...........had this occurred as a result of a team referral I believe it would be mentioned. As written, the fact he found himself in the hospital would indicate he went himself.

I think perhaps you aren't aware of the makeup of a teams medical staff. The medical staff would include the in charge Doctor who is usually a sports medicine specialist. It also has a group of trainers and physio therapists. The remainder of the team is then comprised of specialists in orthopaedics, neurology, internal medicine and cardiology. While all the teams Doctors aren't in attendance at the game they are on call game days to respond to emergency situations. The team Doctor travels to away games and the home team provides emergency care if the need arises.

In situations like this the team Doctor doesn't simply make a determination. A player is put through a battery of tests by the appropriate staff specialist. In numerous situations secondary opinions are sought out. My point is the appropriate specialist, be it a neurologist or orthopaedic surgeon would have tested and examined Jones and provided opinion to the team.

As for the insurance coverage. Insurance can be purchased for just about anything. High risk situations are routinely covered by insurers, rates are simply increased to offset the higher risk.

You're correct in saying in some instances of spinal stenosis an athlete can return to contact sports. However, (I'm to tired to look it up) there is a list of nine or so symptoms, that if experienced, preclude an athlete from returning to contact sports.

Jones has referenced his memory of a conversation with a specialist who suggested he could return to football. It strikes me as curious there is no mention of when. Jones missed five weeks of football. Does it not strike you as curious Jones didn't include any reference to a time line when he could return to football? If the stenosis diagnosis was a non event then why didn't he mention when he could return?

Its unfortunate your Father had to have his condition repaired surgically. However his condition is probably much different than Jones. The age difference alone would indicate degenerative disc disease was involved. All of us old guys have degenerative disc issues.

I to have back issues. I have been off work for two months and hope to return to work in April. My specialist is a sports medicine Doctor who is also an orthopaedic surgeon. He is also the team Doctor for the Ottawa Senators.

The point I'm attempting to make about Doctors is that both orthopaedic and neurology specialists do work on the spine. The important factor is regardless of credential they specialize in spinal injury and associated surgical practices.
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nixa37


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
I'm not misunderstanding anything. He found himself in a hospital. No mention of why he was in the hospital days later. The article refers to a specialist yet doesn't mention his specialization.

The injury occurred against Oregon on Halloween in 2009. By all accounts, it was a routine hit, but after staying on the turf for a few seconds, he was removed from the game. Within days, he found himself in the hospital, where a specialist told him he had a "mild" case of spinal stenosis, a narrowing of the spinal column. "I've seen this over and over again," Jones remembers the doctor saying. "If you play the game long enough, things like this will happen."

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8448679/georgia-bulldogs-lb-jarvis-jones-long-journey-back-field-espn-magazine

I really don't want to be argumentative but there is no mention of the Doctors name or specialization. It doesn't mention why he was in the hospital days later or provide the name of the hospital. The article is quoting Jones as he remembers the situation.

I can't find a single Doctors quotes or comments on anything relating to Jones condition.

In reading your post you seem to be assuming that the team referred him to the specialist. I don't think that's the case. If you notice the article says," within days he FOUND himself in hospital."

My turn to assume...........had this occurred as a result of a team referral I believe it would be mentioned. As written, the fact he found himself in the hospital would indicate he went himself.

I think perhaps you aren't aware of the makeup of a teams medical staff. The medical staff would include the in charge Doctor who is usually a sports medicine specialist. It also has a group of trainers and physio therapists. The remainder of the team is then comprised of specialists in orthopaedics, neurology, internal medicine and cardiology. While all the teams Doctors aren't in attendance at the game they are on call game days to respond to emergency situations. The team Doctor travels to away games and the home team provides emergency care if the need arises.

In situations like this the team Doctor doesn't simply make a determination. A player is put through a battery of tests by the appropriate staff specialist. In numerous situations secondary opinions are sought out. My point is the appropriate specialist, be it a neurologist or orthopaedic surgeon would have tested and examined Jones and provided opinion to the team.

As for the insurance coverage. Insurance can be purchased for just about anything. High risk situations are routinely covered by insurers, rates are simply increased to offset the higher risk.

You're correct in saying in some instances of spinal stenosis an athlete can return to contact sports. However, (I'm to tired to look it up) there is a list of nine or so symptoms, that if experienced, preclude an athlete from returning to contact sports.

Jones has referenced his memory of a conversation with a specialist who suggested he could return to football. It strikes me as curious there is no mention of when. Jones missed five weeks of football. Does it not strike you as curious Jones didn't include any reference to a time line when he could return to football? If the stenosis diagnosis was a non event then why didn't he mention when he could return?

Its unfortunate your Father had to have his condition repaired surgically. However his condition is probably much different than Jones. The age difference alone would indicate degenerative disc disease was involved. All of us old guys have degenerative disc issues.

I to have back issues. I have been off work for two months and hope to return to work in April. My specialist is a sports medicine Doctor who is also an orthopaedic surgeon. He is also the team Doctor for the Ottawa Senators.

The point I'm attempting to make about Doctors is that both orthopaedic and neurology specialists do work on the spine. The important factor is regardless of credential they specialize in spinal injury and associated surgical practices.

He's a college student. His insurance is through the school. He's not going to the hospital on his own and paying hundreds, possibly even thousands, of dollars to get checked out. He does give the timeline of when this happened, so I'm not sure why you're saying he doesn't. Like he said, it was days later, which is when you would normally have an injury looked at.

I've been very upfront that this is Jones' side of the story and it may not be completely accurate. The problem is, it is really the only side of the story we have beyond the USC doctors not clearing him. None of the doctors or USC can comment of the situation because of privacy laws.

I didn't bring up my father as proof that Jones could return or anything. I brought him up specifically to mention he was examined by a neurosurgeon in response to you implying I was wrong for suggesting Jones would have been examined by a neurologist.

Clearly this isn't going anywhere. You seem to take my argument as saying Jones is fine when it is in fact that people may be overstating how serious his condition is because they simply hear spinal stenosis and basically assume it will automatically be career ending. That's not how it works. There is likely a significant percentage of NFL players that would be diagnosed with at least mild spinal stenosis. It's the nature of getting older and according to you guys, taking a lot of hits.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:
Clearly this isn't going anywhere. You seem to take my argument as saying Jones is fine when it is in fact that people may be overstating how serious his condition is because they simply hear spinal stenosis and basically assume it will automatically be career ending. That's not how it works. There is likely a significant percentage of NFL players that would be diagnosed with at least mild spinal stenosis. It's the nature of getting older and according to you guys, taking a lot of hits.
You seem to be disregarding the fact that this is a degenerative condition, and once you have it, it WILL only get worst. Time, and stress on the target area are the stimulus for how rapid the condition will worsten.

Like I said, I've been living with this condition now for 7 years. I am an extremely active person, but I've learned to manage my life around the condition, but the pain is always there as a reminder. I don't know what the cause of Jones's condition was, but mine was more than likely a combination of multiple car accidents, and years of long distance running and weight lifting. Needless to say, I had to cut certain activities from my life that someone as young and fit as I was shouldn't have had to.

The compression of the spine may not be extreme to begin with for Jarvis, but the impact from constant collisions will undoubtedly rapidly worsten the condition, as long distance running did to me- that is the essence of degeneration.

What's even scarier from my perspective is that Jarvis's condition seems to be in his upper spinal region- that's the reason a neurologist was involved. My particular condition is in the lunbar region, or lower spine. My neck isn't/wouldn't be effected, as is the case with Jarvis. Now you can try and find all sorts of blogs supporting your position that it may not be as bad as we're making this out to be, but here's the jist of what's going on with Jarvis:

Jarvis has a degenerative spinal condition in his upper spinal region, that will worsten with varying degrees of acceleration depending on the severity and frequency of future impacts the region receives. Jarvis is entering the NFL as a pass rushing OLB/DE- a position in a sport that frequently entails violent collisions. I don't need a dissertation explaining to me the potential risk involving that volatile combination.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
nixa37 wrote:
Clearly this isn't going anywhere. You seem to take my argument as saying Jones is fine when it is in fact that people may be overstating how serious his condition is because they simply hear spinal stenosis and basically assume it will automatically be career ending. That's not how it works. There is likely a significant percentage of NFL players that would be diagnosed with at least mild spinal stenosis. It's the nature of getting older and according to you guys, taking a lot of hits.
You seem to be disregarding the fact that this is a degenerative condition, and once you have it, it WILL only get worst. Time, and stress on the target area are the stimulus for how rapid the condition will worsten.

Like I said, I've been living with this condition now for 7 years. I am an extremely active person, but I've learned to manage my life around the condition, but the pain is always there as a reminder. I don't know what the cause of Jones's condition was, but mine was more than likely a combination of multiple car accidents, and years of long distance running and weight lifting. Needless to say, I had to cut certain activities from my life that someone as young and fit as I was shouldn't have had to.

The compression of the spine may not be extreme to begin with for Jarvis, but the impact from constant collisions will undoubtedly rapidly worsten the condition, as long distance running did to me- that is the essence of degeneration.

What's even scarier from my perspective is that Jarvis's condition seems to be in his upper spinal region- that's the reason a neurologist was involved. My particular condition is in the lunbar region, or lower spine. My neck isn't/wouldn't be effected, as is the case with Jarvis. Now you can try and find all sorts of blogs supporting your position that it may not be as bad as we're making this out to be, but here's the jist of what's going on with Jarvis:

Jarvis has a degenerative spinal condition in his upper spinal region, that will worsten with varying degrees of acceleration depending on the severity and frequency of future impacts the region receives. Jarvis is entering the NFL as a pass rushing OLB/DE- a position in a sport that frequently entails violent collisions. I don't need a dissertation explaining to me the potential risk involving that volatile combination.

A neurologist/neurosurgeon could be involved for any part of the spine. They work with the nervous system, which includes the entire spinal column. I think we tend to associate neurology with the head and neck area because that's primarily where we hear them being involved in football, but they are qualified to assess the entire spine. I actually found an interesting article last night talking about who you should choose for back procedures, an orthopedic spine specialist or a neurosurgeon, and the conclusion was basically on a few procedures one might be better, but for the most part they are both just as qualified.

I won't pretend to be especially knowledgeable on spinal stenosis and how it progresses over time. My impression had always been that football hits didn't make it progressively worse unless there was a specific traumatic injury to the area. It's not that I don't believe you guys when you say it is guaranteed to get worse over time with NFL hits, but I just haven't seen anything saying that. Given that you're dealing with the condition, you would know better than me, and if you could point me to a site where I could read more about it I would appreciate it.

I guess we'll learn more once the combine happens and the draft comes around. With 2 more seasons of wear and tear at UGA, NFL doctors will have a very good idea of if the condition has progressed since the initial diagnosis, and if so how much. My only thing is that I think people should take more of a wait and see approach instead of seemingly assuming the worst.
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Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25691
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nixa37 wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
I'm not misunderstanding anything. He found himself in a hospital. No mention of why he was in the hospital days later. The article refers to a specialist yet doesn't mention his specialization.

The injury occurred against Oregon on Halloween in 2009. By all accounts, it was a routine hit, but after staying on the turf for a few seconds, he was removed from the game. Within days, he found himself in the hospital, where a specialist told him he had a "mild" case of spinal stenosis, a narrowing of the spinal column. "I've seen this over and over again," Jones remembers the doctor saying. "If you play the game long enough, things like this will happen."

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8448679/georgia-bulldogs-lb-jarvis-jones-long-journey-back-field-espn-magazine

I really don't want to be argumentative but there is no mention of the Doctors name or specialization. It doesn't mention why he was in the hospital days later or provide the name of the hospital. The article is quoting Jones as he remembers the situation.

I can't find a single Doctors quotes or comments on anything relating to Jones condition.

In reading your post you seem to be assuming that the team referred him to the specialist. I don't think that's the case. If you notice the article says," within days he FOUND himself in hospital."

My turn to assume...........had this occurred as a result of a team referral I believe it would be mentioned. As written, the fact he found himself in the hospital would indicate he went himself.

I think perhaps you aren't aware of the makeup of a teams medical staff. The medical staff would include the in charge Doctor who is usually a sports medicine specialist. It also has a group of trainers and physio therapists. The remainder of the team is then comprised of specialists in orthopaedics, neurology, internal medicine and cardiology. While all the teams Doctors aren't in attendance at the game they are on call game days to respond to emergency situations. The team Doctor travels to away games and the home team provides emergency care if the need arises.

In situations like this the team Doctor doesn't simply make a determination. A player is put through a battery of tests by the appropriate staff specialist. In numerous situations secondary opinions are sought out. My point is the appropriate specialist, be it a neurologist or orthopaedic surgeon would have tested and examined Jones and provided opinion to the team.

As for the insurance coverage. Insurance can be purchased for just about anything. High risk situations are routinely covered by insurers, rates are simply increased to offset the higher risk.

You're correct in saying in some instances of spinal stenosis an athlete can return to contact sports. However, (I'm to tired to look it up) there is a list of nine or so symptoms, that if experienced, preclude an athlete from returning to contact sports.

Jones has referenced his memory of a conversation with a specialist who suggested he could return to football. It strikes me as curious there is no mention of when. Jones missed five weeks of football. Does it not strike you as curious Jones didn't include any reference to a time line when he could return to football? If the stenosis diagnosis was a non event then why didn't he mention when he could return?

Its unfortunate your Father had to have his condition repaired surgically. However his condition is probably much different than Jones. The age difference alone would indicate degenerative disc disease was involved. All of us old guys have degenerative disc issues.

I to have back issues. I have been off work for two months and hope to return to work in April. My specialist is a sports medicine Doctor who is also an orthopaedic surgeon. He is also the team Doctor for the Ottawa Senators.

The point I'm attempting to make about Doctors is that both orthopaedic and neurology specialists do work on the spine. The important factor is regardless of credential they specialize in spinal injury and associated surgical practices.

He's a college student. His insurance is through the school. He's not going to the hospital on his own and paying hundreds, possibly even thousands, of dollars to get checked out. He does give the timeline of when this happened, so I'm not sure why you're saying he doesn't. Like he said, it was days later, which is when you would normally have an injury looked at.

I've been very upfront that this is Jones' side of the story and it may not be completely accurate. The problem is, it is really the only side of the story we have beyond the USC doctors not clearing him. None of the doctors or USC can comment of the situation because of privacy laws.

I didn't bring up my father as proof that Jones could return or anything. I brought him up specifically to mention he was examined by a neurosurgeon in response to you implying I was wrong for suggesting Jones would have been examined by a neurologist.

Clearly this isn't going anywhere. You seem to take my argument as saying Jones is fine when it is in fact that people may be overstating how serious his condition is because they simply hear spinal stenosis and basically assume it will automatically be career ending. That's not how it works. There is likely a significant percentage of NFL players that would be diagnosed with at least mild spinal stenosis. It's the nature of getting older and according to you guys, taking a lot of hits.


Sorry but I have to respond.

Finding himself in a hospital days later is not an acceptable timeline. Was it 3 days later? 5 days? 10?

Days later is not how the team medical staff would have a neck injury assessed. Neck and spinal injuries are high priority.

It's highly unlikely the medical team would disregard the opinion of their own expert. They have these specialists as part of their team because they provide the expertise in specific areas. At the time of Jones diagnosis by the Trojans medical staff we should also remember that many teams were still applying pressure on the medical staff to clear players.

He saw a specialist. That could be a neurologist, orthopaedic surgeon or chiropractor. It may have also been an emergency ward trauma specialist or on call neurology resident.

If you go back and read what I've said I started by saying that I hope his sole diagnosis wasn't from a neurologist. My point being that he should see both neurologist and orthopaedic surgeons. It should also be mentioned that a patient would need to see an orthopaedic or neurology surgeon that specializes in spinal injuries.

He has medical insurance. He can attend a hospital for treatment. It doesn't have to be the USC medical centre.

The entire makeup of the article is vague. Days later he found himself in the hospital? The specialist said he is fine to play football? How does someone who is scheduled an appointment with the team specialist find them self in the hospital?

If it was a team Doctor or team specialist that said he was fine do you not think Jones would mention that?

I certainly do. I expect if his trip to the hospital had anything to do with the team the article would have said something like......upon completion of his scheduled assessment by the medical teams neurologist Jones stated the Doctor told him he was fine to play football.

The fact he found himself in the hospital days later and a specialist said he was fine is simply wishy washy.

It sounds to me like a number of days after his injury he again experienced pain, numbness, paralysis or burning and headed to the emergency ward to have it checked out.

You are also wrong in your assumption that I believe his condition will be career ending. My position is that because of his medical diagnosis he is a higher risk than other players. I don't believe the Lions can afford that level of risk with a first round pick.

This is exactly the same discussions that occurred on this board about Jahvid Best. Numerous posters took the position that because the Doctors cleared him to play football it was O.K. I made the same arguments about Best that I'm making about Jones. The risk is simply to great for a team like Detroit.
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