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Vontae Deal better for Colts than expected
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ovaw8lover


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 9065
Location: Dolphins Stadium
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:
HOW about this ?

1. Everybody graded to be selected in the 2nd round of this years draft is more valuable than Vontae Davis (and we get a 6th as well ... i'd do this for any CB we have).


Sorry, no chance. Yes, Davis has holes in his game, but lets not forget he got Defensive Player of Week honors the last week of the season when he was healthy. I can't believe we've come so far that I am arguing for Vontae but there is not a chance in hell that everyone, let alone half of the players in the 2nd round are more valuable than Vontae Davis. No chance. If 33% of the guys taken in the 2nd prove to be more productive, longer careers than Vontae it will be one of the best 2nd rounds in draft in history. Vontae is a head case, but he is a talented guy. If he decides to show up, he can even be great. 2nd rounds in the NFL draft have a success rate below 33%. The better teams hit on rates higher than that, but then again, that's what makes them better teams.


Again, we share a brain on this one. I found people say things on this forum to make themselves feel better. Like when they say Tanney is a frachise QB, knowing he has done nothing to prove he is a franchise QB to this point.

All I know is Davis was a first round draft pick and we sold him for a second. I am not the brightest bulb in the stack but that is a losing proposition. NFL teams, much like businesses are in the business to make a profit. Tell me how trading Davis made the Fins better. That is all I want to see. If someone can convince me the trade for Vontae somehow make the Fins better with Irelands checkered drafts, please tell me.
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dolphinologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 5578
Location: New York
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:
HOW about this ?

1. Everybody graded to be selected in the 2nd round of this years draft is more valuable than Vontae Davis (and we get a 6th as well ... i'd do this for any CB we have).


Sorry, no chance. Yes, Davis has holes in his game, but lets not forget he got Defensive Player of Week honors the last week of the season when he was healthy. I can't believe we've come so far that I am arguing for Vontae but there is not a chance in hell that everyone, let alone half of the players in the 2nd round are more valuable than Vontae Davis. No chance. If 33% of the guys taken in the 2nd prove to be more productive, longer careers than Vontae it will be one of the best 2nd rounds in draft in history. Vontae is a head case, but he is a talented guy. If he decides to show up, he can even be great. 2nd rounds in the NFL draft have a success rate below 33%. The better teams hit on rates higher than that, but then again, that's what makes them better teams.



Too many "if"s in your stance on this.
Cordarrelle Patterson is slated to be the 61st (2nd to last pick in the 2nd)

I'd take Cordarrelle Patterson over Vontae all day and twice on sundays. (lol ... see what I did there)

Larry Warford is a guard slated to go right before him. I'd take Larry over Cordarelle ...

From there on it's just Guards, Defensive Ends and Wide Receivers that will be the new regularly mentioned names in the NFL ... see where I'm going with this ?
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dolphinologist


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 5578
Location: New York
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ovaw8lover wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:
HOW about this ?

1. Everybody graded to be selected in the 2nd round of this years draft is more valuable than Vontae Davis (and we get a 6th as well ... i'd do this for any CB we have).


Sorry, no chance. Yes, Davis has holes in his game, but lets not forget he got Defensive Player of Week honors the last week of the season when he was healthy. I can't believe we've come so far that I am arguing for Vontae but there is not a chance in hell that everyone, let alone half of the players in the 2nd round are more valuable than Vontae Davis. No chance. If 33% of the guys taken in the 2nd prove to be more productive, longer careers than Vontae it will be one of the best 2nd rounds in draft in history. Vontae is a head case, but he is a talented guy. If he decides to show up, he can even be great. 2nd rounds in the NFL draft have a success rate below 33%. The better teams hit on rates higher than that, but then again, that's what makes them better teams.


Again, we share a brain on this one. I found people say things on this forum to make themselves feel better. Like when they say Tanney is a frachise QB, knowing he has done nothing to prove he is a franchise QB to this point.

All I know is Davis was a first round draft pick and we sold him for a second. I am not the brightest bulb in the stack but that is a losing proposition. NFL teams, much like businesses are in the business to make a profit. Tell me how trading Davis made the Fins better. That is all I want to see. If someone can convince me the trade for Vontae somehow make the Fins better with Irelands checkered drafts, please tell me.


It happens all the time. Just because he was drafted in the first round you can't assume that he has maintained that value through out his career. The player that came into camp in 2012 had more value as a vehicle to get two draft picks than a player who was going to play well for us this year. Especially with his contract. Players either live up to their draft value or they don't ... Every team should be trying to rid their roster of every pre-cba contract that is not all pro.

Me personally i don't think he had any real health issues with the Colts. I think the GM in the interest of saving face concocted that injury so he wouldn't look like he got fleeced. (That is just a something I pulled out of thin air, but I've heard worse)
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphinologist wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
dolphinologist wrote:
HOW about this ?

1. Everybody graded to be selected in the 2nd round of this years draft is more valuable than Vontae Davis (and we get a 6th as well ... i'd do this for any CB we have).


Sorry, no chance. Yes, Davis has holes in his game, but lets not forget he got Defensive Player of Week honors the last week of the season when he was healthy. I can't believe we've come so far that I am arguing for Vontae but there is not a chance in hell that everyone, let alone half of the players in the 2nd round are more valuable than Vontae Davis. No chance. If 33% of the guys taken in the 2nd prove to be more productive, longer careers than Vontae it will be one of the best 2nd rounds in draft in history. Vontae is a head case, but he is a talented guy. If he decides to show up, he can even be great. 2nd rounds in the NFL draft have a success rate below 33%. The better teams hit on rates higher than that, but then again, that's what makes them better teams.



Too many "if"s in your stance on this.
Cordarrelle Patterson is slated to be the 61st (2nd to last pick in the 2nd)

I'd take Cordarrelle Patterson over Vontae all day and twice on sundays. (lol ... see what I did there)

Larry Warford is a guard slated to go right before him. I'd take Larry over Cordarelle ...

From there on it's just Guards, Defensive Ends and Wide Receivers that will be the new regularly mentioned names in the NFL ... see where I'm going with this ?


I'm not saying there aren't guys that you can name projected to be taken in the 2nd that won't be better than Vontae, heck, you may be able to name guys in the 6th round that might surprise and be better than Vontae. But the way I read your comment was that EVERYONE projected to go in the 2nd is better. I say, no way. No chance. And I'd go so far as to say MOST guys in the 2nd won't be better. I'd also point out that the Dolphins track record in the 2nd round sucks ROYALLY.

Here are the 2nd round picks of the Ireland Era

The Ireland Era 2nd Round
Jonathan Martin
Daniel Thomas
Koa Misi
Pat White
Sean Smith
Philip Merling
Chad Henne

Dolphins History of 2nd round since 1999 (pre-Ireland)
John Beck
Samson Satele
Matt Roth
Eddie Moore
Chris Chambers
Todd Wade
JJ Johnson
Rob Konrad

Vontae Davis is better than all but maybe two or three of those guys. And potentially better than all of them.

Overall, the Fins have selected 11 players in the second round of the last 10 NFL Drafts. Those picks have yielded just 14.7 starts per player, for their CAREER.

This is why I want Ireland gone. He may find a gem from time to time, like Reshad Jones, but any single one of us could and probably would do the same. There are only 32 people in the world that get to make final decisions on the NFL draft day. I don't want just anyone of of those 32. I want, and expect, that we will have one of the top 10 guys. Ireland ain't that guy.

I'm not climbing on you, dolphinologist, not at all. I get how the draft represents hope. It sort of does for me too, but I'm sick of us consistently under performing the averages when it comes to the draft. We seem to have learned that a team needs to be built via the draft, thats a valuable/great lesson, but now we intend to take all of the picks we've accumulated and give them to a guy that's been part of a regime that's shown no ability to pick well. The Vontae Davis is a bad deal no matter which way you slice it. Throw in the fact that the Dolphins have one of the worst track records in the last decade in the 2nd round and it could be even worse.

Sorry, I'll shut up. I'm not saying the whole Vontae thing couldn't have been a heck of a lot worse. It could have. But I don't see it as a win and I don't have faith that we'll do any better, not with draft history in generally and especially not with our draft history in the 2nd.
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cddolphin


Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 6645
Location: Gainesville, FL
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting that the deepest positions in the upcoming draft is DE, CB, WR...
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ViolentMonk71


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 3766
Location: Don Shula's front porch
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vontae has top CB talent, the issue is he never plays to his ability. If he ever gets it together and find a drive and desire to be great he will, but it is hard if he doesn't have that already.

As far as the deal....it is still hard to evaluate until we see who is actually drafted and while Ireland's second round drafts have been suspect remember that The sun even shines on a dog's a-- some days.
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