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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 46537
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Jets to interview former Bears exec Jerry Angelo for G.M Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Terrible picks in retrospect are easy to complain about but the point is none of them were outrageous picks AT THE TIME. They were all consensus picks for that position in the draft.

And the reality is Angelo's teams were always at the door of the playoffs except for Smith's first year. And, believe me, this is not because Smith was a superior coach.

Nor is it true that he picked people just because he wanted to. They were all scouted by other people, evaluated by other people then not developed by other people. There is a lot more to player personnel than just picking someone. It is true that the buck stopped with Jerry and he paid the price for his mistakes. But he was not as bad as is claimed.

We didn't even HAVE a GM before he was hired.


It doesn't matter if they were outrageous at the time. Part of the job is picking players who will succeed...not picking from Mel Kipers's top players available.

I'd rather have a GM who makes outrageous picks and hits on them then makes the media/fan consensus picks and misses.

They were terrible picks...because they sucked in the pros.

Yea, I know. Lovie is a terrible coach. And yet, he managed to keep a team in playoff contention despite having a GM with a bad draft history who wasn't known for his FA moves either. I guess they were just lucky.

But wait, it wasn't Angelo blowing the picks. It was Lovie. It was actually Angelo keeping the team in playoff contention as the secret coach. Laughing

It doesn't matter if they were scouted by others, he's the GM. He makes the final decisions. It's his job to make sure he knows what he's doing. If I can find the time to watch and scout 100 to 150 players a year as a hobby, he should be able to scout plenty of guys as a GM.

The facts are that his draft history sucks and no matter how you try to pawn the blame off on Lovie(then claim Angelo kept the team in contention) is going to change that. It just looks extremely hypocritical.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
And the reality is Angelo's teams were always at the door of the playoffs except for Smith's first year. And, believe me, this is not because Smith was a superior coach.


In fact, ChicagoAl, please explain this comment. If Lovie is a terrible Head Coach and was calling the shots and screwing up on personnel, how did the team remain in contention?
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But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Re: Jets to interview former Bears exec Jerry Angelo for G.M Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Terrible picks in retrospect are easy to complain about but the point is none of them were outrageous picks AT THE TIME. They were all consensus picks for that position in the draft.

And the reality is Angelo's teams were always at the door of the playoffs except for Smith's first year. And, believe me, this is not because Smith was a superior coach.

Nor is it true that he picked people just because he wanted to. They were all scouted by other people, evaluated by other people then not developed by other people. There is a lot more to player personnel than just picking someone. It is true that the buck stopped with Jerry and he paid the price for his mistakes. But he was not as bad as is claimed.

We didn't even HAVE a GM before he was hired.


It doesn't matter if they were outrageous at the time. Nothing is easier than 20/20 hindsight. Part of the job is picking players who will succeed...not picking from Mel Kipers's top players available.

I'd rather have a GM who makes outrageous picks and hits on them then makes the media/fan consensus picks and misses. Duh.

They were terrible picks...because they sucked in the pros.

Yea, I know. Lovie is a terrible coach. I did not say that. He was a half a coach being utterly clueless about offense. And yet, he managed to keep a team in playoff contention despite having a GM with a bad draft history who wasn't known for his FA moves either. I guess they were just lucky. When Smith got here the team Angelo had already put together went to the Super Bowl. After the SB Smith obtained far more power over personnel whether you like it or not and the results were not good.

But wait, it wasn't Angelo blowing the picks. It was Lovie. It was actually Angelo keeping the team in playoff contention as the secret coach. Laughing What I ACTUALLY said was that after 06 the decisions were not just Angelo and said nothing about Angelo being a "secret coach" nor did I ever imply such foolishness.

It doesn't matter if they were scouted by others, he's the GM. He makes the final decisions. It's his job to make sure he knows what he's doing. If I can find the time to watch and scout 100 to 150 players a year as a hobby, he should be able to scout plenty of guys as a GM.

The facts are that his draft history sucks and no matter how you try to pawn the blame off on Lovie(then claim Angelo kept the team in contention) is going to change that. It just looks extremely hypocritical.
Most of what you claim I am saying I have not said. The only thing that is correct is that Angelo made the final decisions. He paid the price for his failures no matter what part he had in the actual decision.

I note that you avoid addressing anything that I actually said while gleefully knocking down the strawmen you create and pretend stand for me.

You can overlook the fact that Angelo-Smith were joined at the hip if you like I don't really care.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:18 am    Post subject: Re: Jets to interview former Bears exec Jerry Angelo for G.M Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Most of what you claim I am saying I have not said. The only thing that is correct is that Angelo made the final decisions. He paid the price for his failures no matter what part he had in the actual decision


Actually, no, you said all of it and now you're backtracking. Angelo made the final decision...so he had more than enough part in the actual decision.

Quote:
I note that you avoid addressing anything that I actually said while gleefully knocking down the strawmen you create and pretend stand for me.

You can overlook the fact that Angelo-Smith were joined at the hip if you like I don't really care.


What did I avoid? You claiming that Smith had personnel power without any proof? Your claims that the team stayed in contention despite Lovie Smith while simultaneously putting the personnel decisions on his shoulders?

Yes. The best you can argue is that they were joined at the hip(something that I don't buy for a second)...so since you're so eager to criticize Lovie, why are you so reluctant to place blame on Angelo?

Nothing is easier than hindsight? Puhlease. Every single GM gets criticized for missing picks. But when your draft history is terrible, it's irrelevant if you were picking the "consensus" player at the time. That means the "consensus" was wrong...as it often is...and as a GM, you should have had the evaluative talent to not pick that guy.

Why doesn't Ted Thompson's draft history suck? You make it seem as if it's impossible to have a good history because even when you take the "right" player, they still often bust.

Bull. Angelo made bad picks. He picked terrible players. Whether or not the media was fond of those players is irrelevant...as GM, you're supposed to have the skills to separate the media hype from the actual player talent. He didn't.

I'm sure you'll make more excuses for him while simultaneously condemning Lovie Smith...it really is confusing how you can have such starkly different stances on these two guys. Especially considering Lovie's W-L record is vastly superior to Angelo's personnel decision record.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
And the reality is Angelo's teams were always at the door of the playoffs except for Smith's first year. And, believe me, this is not because Smith was a superior coach.


In fact, ChicagoAl, please explain this comment. If Lovie is a terrible Head Coach and was calling the shots and screwing up on personnel, how did the team remain in contention?
It would help your understanding if you accurately addressed what I said not that crap.

Smith was a good coach on one side of the ball. Who disputes that? But we needed a complete coach.

He could not come up with an offense if his life depended on it. Who disputes that?

We could not beat good teams very often. Do you dispute that?

He had nine years to win a Super Bowl. How many coaches get that long?

His last six years had ONE playoff year and he won only every other year during that period. What winning teams would have kept him after that?

Saying that Smith had as much to do with the draft those last six years as anyone is not the same as saying Smith "was calling the shots and screwing up on personnel" now is it?

There are few GMs who do not heavily weigh their HANDPICKED HC opinion in personnel and those few are not long for the position. Who does not want to give his coach whatever he thinks necessary to win? Even when that is a worthless Orlando Pace, Adam Archuleta, a fat butt TE, a LB who was never healthy for more than a month or so. I ask you again do you really believe Angelo took those players on his own volition?
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Karmaloop


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake Steinberg wrote:
Late night Jets news: Per CBS, it appears Jerry Angelo is no longer in the mix to be the next Jets GM.

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green24


Joined: 10 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karmaloop wrote:
Jake Steinberg wrote:
Late night #Jets news: Per CBS, it appears Jerry Angelo is no longer in the mix to be the next #Jets GM.

Hallelujah!
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: Jets to interview former Bears exec Jerry Angelo for G.M Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Most of what you claim I am saying I have not said. The only thing that is correct is that Angelo made the final decisions. He paid the price for his failures no matter what part he had in the actual decision


Actually, no, you said all of it and now you're backtracking. Angelo made the final decision...so he had more than enough part in the actual decision.

Quote:
I note that you avoid addressing anything that I actually said while gleefully knocking down the strawmen you create and pretend stand for me.

You can overlook the fact that Angelo-Smith were joined at the hip if you like I don't really care.


What did I avoid? You claiming that Smith had personnel power without any proof? Your claims that the team stayed in contention despite Lovie Smith while simultaneously putting the personnel decisions on his shoulders? It was widely reported at the time of the extension. Go back and check it if you weren't paying attention and don't believe me.

Yes. The best you can argue is that they were joined at the hip(something that I don't buy for a second)...so since you're so eager to criticize Lovie, why are you so reluctant to place blame on Angelo? It truly believe that his biggest failures in the draft was sheer bad luck. Who would have thought that Benson would get into trouble with the law and get cut? Or Tank Johnson would run afoul of Illinois' draconian gun laws? Or that Gaines would die of a bad heart? Every GM has stretches of bad luck but this is in a class by itself.

Nothing is easier than hindsight? Puhlease. Every single GM gets criticized for missing picks. But when your draft history is terrible, it's irrelevant if you were picking the "consensus" player at the time. That means the "consensus" was wrong...as it often is...and as a GM, you should have had the evaluative talent to not pick that guy. If the consensus is wrong then you get fired. When your luck is running good you pick Tom Brady after he is passed almost two hundred times. When it isn't your first round pick linemen have their knees wrecked or backs operated on.

Why doesn't Ted Thompson's draft history suck? One reason is that the players he selects are quickly developed by McCarthy's staff. Most of these players would not be anywhere that good as after GB's staff develops them. Recall the handling of Earl Bennett for an example of just how we develop players. You make it seem as if it's impossible to have a good history because even when you take the "right" player, they still often bust. I make nothing seem. It is true that you have to develop the players selected though.

Bull. Angelo made bad picks. He picked terrible players. Whether or not the media was fond of those players is irrelevant...as GM, you're supposed to have the skills to separate the media hype from the actual player talent. He didn't. He picked or picked up a lot of good players. Players who often went on to play for other teams. Players who have made the Pro Bowl. Players who even have a shot at the Hall of Fame.

I'm sure you'll make more excuses for him while simultaneously condemning Lovie Smith...it really is confusing how you can have such starkly different stances on these two guys. Especially considering Lovie's W-L record is vastly superior to Angelo's personnel decision record.
Not really, Smith's record shows 16 more victories than defeats in NINE years, work it out. How long do you get to finish out of the playoffs before losing your job?
Smith got on more year than Angelo.

So you think Angelo could choose good coaches?

Smith will not get another HC job. So the league's evaluation will mirror mine. I hope like heck he does though so the Bears will save some money but I don't see it.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:08 am    Post subject: Re: Jets to interview former Bears exec Jerry Angelo for G.M Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Not really, Smith's record shows 16 more victories than defeats in NINE years, work it out. How long do you get to finish out of the playoffs before losing your job?
Smith got on more year than Angelo.

So you think Angelo could choose good coaches?

Smith will not get another HC job. So the league's evaluation will mirror mine. I hope like heck he does though so the Bears will save some money but I don't see it.


Angelo was GM from 2001 to 2011. Lovie was HC from 2004 to 2012. How did get one more year on Angelo?

So in 9 years, Smith's record was 16 games over .500. Whereas Angelo's personnel record was cruddy over 11.

Quote:
It truly believe that his biggest failures in the draft was sheer bad luck. Who would have thought that Benson would get into trouble with the law and get cut? Or Tank Johnson would run afoul of Illinois' draconian gun laws? Or that Gaines would die of a bad heart? Every GM has stretches of bad luck but this is in a class by itself.


That's an excuse and a weak justification. Part of the draft, is checking character out. Even still, Benson wasn't ever a good player. He was a bust even after he left Chicago. Bad pick. It's not bad luck, it's ineffective vetting. And ineffective talent evaluation.

Quote:
If the consensus is wrong then you get fired. When your luck is running good you pick Tom Brady after he is passed almost two hundred times. When it isn't your first round pick linemen have their knees wrecked or backs operated on.


That's not even remotely correct. More excuses from you. If the fan and media consensus is wrong, the good GMs don't pick who they want.

Has nothing to do with luck either. Brady might have been lucky to extent but consistently hitting on 1st and 2nd round picks is not luck.

Quote:
I make nothing seem. It is true that you have to develop the players selected though.


Ahh yes. Back to Lovie being at fault for Angelo's bad picks.

Quote:
He picked or picked up a lot of good players. Players who often went on to play for other teams. Players who have made the Pro Bowl. Players who even have a shot at the Hall of Fame.


Who? In 11 years, he made some good and great picks. Charles Tillman, Devin Hester, Matt Forte, Henry Melton and Lance Briggs were great picks. But if that's all you have to show for 11 years, you better have hit on a lot of solid to good players. He didn't. He whiffed...A LOT. And even some of the picks that ended up being hits, the Bears made terrible decisions by not re-signing them or trading them...like Olsen, Orton and Danieal Manning.

Hell, in the first round in the year that those great picks were made, he came away with Michael Haynes, Rex Grossman and Chris Williams.

It isn't enough to pick a few great players if you miss on the vast majority of your picks. The guy had 11 years and has a pitiful record. Trust me, I know quite well seeing how badly the Rams have drafted. Hitting on a guy every once in awhile isn't how it is supposed to work and it isn't sustainable.
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The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
There are few GMs who do not heavily weigh their HANDPICKED HC opinion in personnel and those few are not long for the position. Who does not want to give his coach whatever he thinks necessary to win? Even when that is a worthless Orlando Pace, Adam Archuleta, a fat butt TE, a LB who was never healthy for more than a month or so. I ask you again do you really believe Angelo took those players on his own volition?


Those specific guys? No. But he still had the decision in his hands and agreed with Lovie. What does that say about his player evaluation skills?
_________________
The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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Superman(DH23)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again I have to point out for the zillionth time, LOVIE DID NOT RECEIVE ADD'L PERSONNEL POWER W/ HIS CONTRACT FOLLOWING THE SUPERBOWL, HE SIMPLY NEGOTIATED THE POWER TO HIRE/FIRE HIS COACHES AS HE SAW FIT. This came after having Jerry Angelo force 3 coordinator's on him, 1 of which had to be fired after the first year, and another that he did not get along w/ and had philosophical differences on how the defense should be run.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: Jets to interview former Bears exec Jerry Angelo for G.M Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Not really, Smith's record shows 16 more victories than defeats in NINE years, work it out. How long do you get to finish out of the playoffs before losing your job?
Smith got on more year than Angelo.

So you think Angelo could choose good coaches?

Smith will not get another HC job. So the league's evaluation will mirror mine. I hope like heck he does though so the Bears will save some money but I don't see it.


Angelo was GM from 2001 to 2011. Lovie was HC from 2004 to 2012. How did get one more year on Angelo? Smith had a year after Angelo left.

So in 9 years, Smith's record was 16 games over .500. Whereas Angelo's personnel record was cruddy over 11. That is why both are looking fruitlessly for a job.

Quote:
It truly believe that his biggest failures in the draft was sheer bad luck. Who would have thought that Benson would get into trouble with the law and get cut? Or Tank Johnson would run afoul of Illinois' draconian gun laws? Or that Gaines would die of a bad heart? Every GM has stretches of bad luck but this is in a class by itself.


That's an excuse and a weak justification. Part of the draft, is checking character out. Even still, Benson wasn't ever a good player. He was a bust even after he left Chicago. Bad pick. It's not bad luck, it's ineffective vetting. And ineffective talent evaluation. There were no character issues prior to the draft that surfaced with either player. Benson has been a thousand yard back most if not all the years after he left the Bears. He never had a complete season with the Bears. He was cut because of the legal issues not because he sucked.

Quote:
If the consensus is wrong then you get fired. When your luck is running good you pick Tom Brady after he is passed almost two hundred times. When it isn't your first round pick linemen have their knees wrecked or backs operated on.


That's not even remotely correct. More excuses from you. If the fan and media consensus is wrong, the good GMs don't pick who they want. I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. It is funny though that when a GM does go outside the box and pick someone not consensus he gets reamed from all sides.

Has nothing to do with luck either. Brady might have been lucky to extent but consistently hitting on 1st and 2nd round picks is not luck. Very few GMs do that.

Quote:
I make nothing seem. It is true that you have to develop the players selected though.


Ahh yes. Back to Lovie being at fault for Angelo's bad picks. Actually it applies to his GOOD picks on offense, too.

Quote:
He picked or picked up a lot of good players. Players who often went on to play for other teams. Players who have made the Pro Bowl. Players who even have a shot at the Hall of Fame.


Who? In 11 years, he made some good and great picks. Charles Tillman, Devin Hester, Matt Forte, Henry Melton and Lance Briggs were great picks. But if that's all you have to show for 11 years, you better have hit on a lot of solid to good players. He didn't. He whiffed...A LOT. And even some of the picks that ended up being hits, the Bears made terrible decisions by not re-signing them or trading them...like Olsen, Orton and Danieal Manning. And that was all Jerry's idea? Or did the coaches have a role in letting them go? It was common knowledge that Martz's (Lovie's boy) did not want Olsen.

Hell, in the first round in the year that those great picks were made, he came away with Michael Haynes, Rex Grossman and Chris Williams. Williams came to the Bears long after Haynes and Grossman were gone. Haynes was a huge bust but he looked like he was the real deal when drafted. He had a great college career, very smart, great character, tore up the Senior Bowl and looked like a potential All Pro. Rex took us to the SB.

It isn't enough to pick a few great players if you miss on the vast majority of your picks. That is true even though Angelo did not miss on "the vast majority" of his picks. The guy had 11 years and has a pitiful record. Trust me, I know quite well seeing how badly the Rams have drafted. Hitting on a guy every once in awhile isn't how it is supposed to work and it isn't sustainable.
Smith is not a terrible coach and Angelo's record was not "pitiful" neither were good enough to keep their jobs, however.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
There are few GMs who do not heavily weigh their HANDPICKED HC opinion in personnel and those few are not long for the position. Who does not want to give his coach whatever he thinks necessary to win? Even when that is a worthless Orlando Pace, Adam Archuleta, a fat butt TE, a LB who was never healthy for more than a month or so. I ask you again do you really believe Angelo took those players on his own volition?


Those specific guys? No. But he still had the decision in his hands and agreed with Lovie. What does that say about his player evaluation skills?
Oh, there is no doubt that Angelo should have said "no" but then he would have been crucified for not giving his coach what he wanted. He does not have a job anymore because he did not have better insight.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
Again I have to point out for the zillionth time, LOVIE DID NOT RECEIVE ADD'L PERSONNEL POWER W/ HIS CONTRACT FOLLOWING THE SUPERBOWL, HE SIMPLY NEGOTIATED THE POWER TO HIRE/FIRE HIS COACHES AS HE SAW FIT. This came after having Jerry Angelo force 3 coordinator's on him, 1 of which had to be fired after the first year, and another that he did not get along w/ and had philosophical differences on how the defense should be run.
You claim this is a myth but the claim that Smith DIDN't hire his own coaches is NOT a myth? Yeah, sure. When all this was happening there was NO ONE saying that you are correct.
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RainbowCarebear wrote:
From Gamble to Angelo Laughing


its like driving off a cliff
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