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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps the writer was. One would think they would list the victories rather than just the losses but whatever.
Did you think it was a good idea to fire Marty? |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| SadLionFan00 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | Correct Wikipedia then. It lists three playoff losses as his only appearances. |
You went to wiki to back up your argument?  |
I just misread it. I would not go there for an in-depth discussion of the philosophy of Heidegger but for commonplace subjects it is fine. |
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JammerHammer21
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | Perhaps the writer was. One would think they would list the victories rather than just the losses but whatever.
Did you think it was a good idea to fire Marty? |
The wins are there below...
Yes. For one, Marty lost two coordinators, and one of his plans was to replace the great Wade Phillips with his brother. That was a no no, especially since his brother sucked. He also clashed with management often and didn't get along with AJ. Marty wanted personnel control it seemed. He's the guy who said trade down and don't take Polamalu, not AJ.
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| Bohlmann20 (On The 95 Cleveland Browns Staff) wrote: | | Lombardi - Isn't that the guy the trophy is named after? If so, top 3 coach of all time. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| JammerHammer21 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | Perhaps the writer was. One would think they would list the victories rather than just the losses but whatever.
Did you think it was a good idea to fire Marty? |
The wins are there below... I found them and had just looked at the side comments.
Yes. For one, Marty lost two coordinators, and one of his plans was to replace the great Wade Phillips with his brother. That was a no no, especially since his brother sucked. He also clashed with management often and didn't get along with AJ. Marty wanted personnel control it seemed. He's the guy who said trade down and don't take Polamalu, not AJ. |
Ok, then. |
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The LBC
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 15541
Location: Long Beach, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | JammerHammer21 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | Perhaps the writer was. One would think they would list the victories rather than just the losses but whatever.
Did you think it was a good idea to fire Marty? |
The wins are there below... I found them and had just looked at the side comments.
Yes. For one, Marty lost two coordinators, and one of his plans was to replace the great Wade Phillips with his brother. That was a no no, especially since his brother sucked. He also clashed with management often and didn't get along with AJ. Marty wanted personnel control it seemed. He's the guy who said trade down and don't take Polamalu, not AJ. |
Ok, then. |
And ChicagoAl I owe you an apology. I was heated earlier from having to deal with other posters here and just constantly having to clarify the circumstances behind Marty's firing gets really tiresome when all we, as Charger fans, constantly here are these trite, singular sentence quips from people about it when 90% of the time, said people have no grasp of the context of what was going on. I could have handled it better though. So let me attempt to flesh it out a bit more for you in a more civilized manner.
The reason I brought up Kurt is that you can literally track his hiring by his brother through all but one of Marty's head coaching gigs (Cleveland). In fact, you can chart those head coaching gigs by a nearly identical process: Hires two perhaps "known" but not "major name" coordinators under whom the team sees its rise in performance/success, said coordinators depart for better jobs (most often promotional hires) and this marks the high-point in the bell curve of each of those teams' success, Marty then promotes the constant Marty-followers that always end up on his staffs (his brother Kurt, Jimmy Raye Junior - up until his retirement, though Marty managed to get Jimmy's son hired in the front office of the Chargers, Mike Trgovac) when there are better options available (on his own staff or on the unemployment line at the time), and within a year in most cases (two in one) his once-successful team is mired in mediocrity and Marty ends up canned.
Moreover, our owner has expressed to Marty in the past and reiterated to him following Wade and Cam accepting HC gigs themselves that he did not want Marty hiring or promoting family (something of a hypocritical stance to take since Dean Spanos himself did exactly that with his sons and nephew, but that's the perks of being the owner; beyond whether it was the case or not, there is a justifiable argument for Spanos' stance in trying to ensure quality of hire over "comfort"). Marty continued to push Kurt for defensive coordinator and his son Brian from offensive coordinator. The real issue was that Marty had failed to develop (possibly stopped even really trying to develop) branches of his coaching tree after he left Kansas City - or at the very least his coaching tree had been exhausted and he really didn't have the ability/desire to bring guys in off the staffs of his assistants (of which there were plenty active in the league at that time: Cowher, Dungy, Cunningham, Edwards, Mike McCarthy). It appears that in spite of knowing Spanos' policy, his contingency plan all along if Wade or Cam were to depart for a promotional hire was to promote from within his own gene pool.
Now I'm not going to sit here and say that there wasn't animosity between Marty and AJ Smith - because there was, both were very Type A personalities with very differing opinions and they clashed over who ought to have the most personnel control (the HC or the GM). Marty, however, was bad at "playing the game" and whereas AJ earned Dean's trust and loyalty, Marty continued to isolate himself more and more from our owner. Both guys were "my way or the highway" types, but Marty was far more vocal about trying to pull it on the boss/owner, AJ had the sense to play things more coy. And after losing his coordinators (along with allowing several other positional coaches who could have been promoted to take lateral hires), going one-and-done at home as the #1 seed in the conference, and continuing to insist that regular season record despite lack of a single playoff win in two playoff appearances (out of 5 years as HC) and those coming due to some poor coaching decisions and player discipline issues, there was certainly justification for his exit.
I mean, you're citing Lovie's only having taken Chicago to the playoffs only 1 out of 6 times since taking them to the Super Bowl as being a justifiable factor for canning him after a 10-6 season. And yet that 1 time you did go he got you to the Conference Championship (and possibly within an non-injured QB of another SB). Now granted, I understand there was also not necessarily chemistry between the new GM (not terribly different than the Marty and AJ situation since AJ inherited Marty from John Butler, he wasn't the one in on the decision to hire him), poor game management, and inability to develop quality coordinators. But just about all those can also be attributed to Marty (who made it to the playoffs one more time in one less year but never advanced once even a single round). So is it really the responsibility of the team to burn the extra year letting the coach fail when they can see the writing on the wall based off the coach's past experience?
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| The Cryptkeeper wrote: | | He's Long, he's strong, and down to get the hittin' on. Russell got whacked. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7064
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| The LBC wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | | JammerHammer21 wrote: | | ChicagoAl wrote: | Perhaps the writer was. One would think they would list the victories rather than just the losses but whatever.
Did you think it was a good idea to fire Marty? |
The wins are there below... I found them and had just looked at the side comments.
Yes. For one, Marty lost two coordinators, and one of his plans was to replace the great Wade Phillips with his brother. That was a no no, especially since his brother sucked. He also clashed with management often and didn't get along with AJ. Marty wanted personnel control it seemed. He's the guy who said trade down and don't take Polamalu, not AJ. |
Ok, then. |
And ChicagoAl I owe you an apology. I was heated earlier from having to deal with other posters here and just constantly having to clarify the circumstances behind Marty's firing gets really tiresome when all we, as Charger fans, constantly here are these trite, singular sentence quips from people about it when 90% of the time, said people have no grasp of the context of what was going on. I could have handled it better though. So let me attempt to flesh it out a bit more for you in a more civilized manner.
The reason I brought up Kurt is that you can literally track his hiring by his brother through all but one of Marty's head coaching gigs (Cleveland). In fact, you can chart those head coaching gigs by a nearly identical process: Hires two perhaps "known" but not "major name" coordinators under whom the team sees its rise in performance/success, said coordinators depart for better jobs (most often promotional hires) and this marks the high-point in the bell curve of each of those teams' success, Marty then promotes the constant Marty-followers that always end up on his staffs (his brother Kurt, Jimmy Raye Junior - up until his retirement, though Marty managed to get Jimmy's son hired in the front office of the Chargers, Mike Trgovac) when there are better options available (on his own staff or on the unemployment line at the time), and within a year in most cases (two in one) his once-successful team is mired in mediocrity and Marty ends up canned.
Moreover, our owner has expressed to Marty in the past and reiterated to him following Wade and Cam accepting HC gigs themselves that he did not want Marty hiring or promoting family (something of a hypocritical stance to take since Dean Spanos himself did exactly that with his sons and nephew, but that's the perks of being the owner; beyond whether it was the case or not, there is a justifiable argument for Spanos' stance in trying to ensure quality of hire over "comfort"). Marty continued to push Kurt for defensive coordinator and his son Brian from offensive coordinator. The real issue was that Marty had failed to develop (possibly stopped even really trying to develop) branches of his coaching tree after he left Kansas City - or at the very least his coaching tree had been exhausted and he really didn't have the ability/desire to bring guys in off the staffs of his assistants (of which there were plenty active in the league at that time: Cowher, Dungy, Cunningham, Edwards, Mike McCarthy). It appears that in spite of knowing Spanos' policy, his contingency plan all along if Wade or Cam were to depart for a promotional hire was to promote from within his own gene pool.
Now I'm not going to sit here and say that there wasn't animosity between Marty and AJ Smith - because there was, both were very Type A personalities with very differing opinions and they clashed over who ought to have the most personnel control (the HC or the GM). Marty, however, was bad at "playing the game" and whereas AJ earned Dean's trust and loyalty, Marty continued to isolate himself more and more from our owner. Both guys were "my way or the highway" types, but Marty was far more vocal about trying to pull it on the boss/owner, AJ had the sense to play things more coy. And after losing his coordinators (along with allowing several other positional coaches who could have been promoted to take lateral hires), going one-and-done at home as the #1 seed in the conference, and continuing to insist that regular season record despite lack of a single playoff win in two playoff appearances (out of 5 years as HC) and those coming due to some poor coaching decisions and player discipline issues, there was certainly justification for his exit.
I mean, you're citing Lovie's only having taken Chicago to the playoffs only 1 out of 6 times since taking them to the Super Bowl as being a justifiable factor for canning him after a 10-6 season. And yet that 1 time you did go he got you to the Conference Championship (and possibly within an non-injured QB of another SB). That year was unbelievable in the way teams routinely lost their QBs right before they would play the Bears. I have spoken a lot about bad luck but this was the greatest example of Good luck I have ever seen. Then we get to that game and deferred to GB. They immediately went up by 14 and essentially the game was finished. We actually outplayed them the second half but it was too late. Would not deferring have made a difference? I do not know for sure but why give Rodgers the ball first? This year we had another second half collapse after starting 7-1 because we had to start playing good/playoff teams and our defense could not work the miracles it had in the first half. It got wore down from carrying the team on its back. And the way we lost the Mn2,Seattle and GB2 games was what showed that Smith had to go. No one wants to have to fire their coach including me. But I have been through 40+ years of it with the Bears and realize it has to be done at times. Now granted, I understand there was also not necessarily chemistry between the new GM (not terribly different than the Marty and AJ situation since AJ inherited Marty from John Butler, he wasn't the one in on the decision to hire him), poor game management, and inability to develop quality coordinators. But just about all those can also be attributed to Marty (who made it to the playoffs one more time in one less year but never advanced once even a single round). So is it really the responsibility of the team to burn the extra year letting the coach fail when they can see the writing on the wall based off the coach's past experience? |
Your gracious apology is accepted. Though I would not say it was necessary, people (including myself) fly off the handle and things said here often seem much more harsh and angry than they really are.
I appreciate the background to Marty's firing some of the "inside baseball" stuff was not known by me. I just remember when it happened and thinking "this is going to set SD back". Turner was a good coach and about as good a replacement as could have been found.
Personally I don't really care about hiring family members IF the teams wins. Why would anyone? Certainly any coach doing that has to know that he is making himself very vulnerable. Of course, here in Chicago we are used to family political dynasty's running things for decades even centuries. And, my God, there are seemingly scores of McCaskeys running around Halas Hall. |
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101Raider
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| So with the Chargers hiring McCoy what's the next stop for Lovie? I thought he was pretty well thought of and respected around the league... Hell I though he'd be off the market ala Reid in a hurry. Any thoughts Chicago fans? |
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Superman(DH23)
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
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Location: Abdi on the sick sig
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| 101Raider wrote: | | So with the Chargers hiring McCoy what's the next stop for Lovie? I thought he was pretty well thought of and respected around the league... Hell I though he'd be off the market ala Reid in a hurry. Any thoughts Chicago fans? |
Ian Rappaport was just on the radio saying maybe AZ, but his issue has been selling his expected OC, which the name being heard the most is Pep Hamilton (former Bears QB coach, current OC at Stanford)
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| OneBadCat wrote: | | Ahah Okay first of all Gamble was lost to IR this year but when healthy he proved to be 2nd only to Revis last season. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7064
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| 101Raider wrote: | | So with the Chargers hiring McCoy what's the next stop for Lovie? I thought he was pretty well thought of and respected around the league... Hell I though he'd be off the market ala Reid in a hurry. Any thoughts Chicago fans? |
Sunday's offensive explosion confirms my belief that there will be no HC job for Smith who is clueless about that side of the ball.
Smith is in an ideal situation: he doesn't have to take just any job and won't. He has time to sit back, collect millions of McCaskey loot, and give his future a lot of thought. He could write a book (what Bears fan wouldn't like to read it?), take the right DC job, be HC at a college or start Transcendental Meditation.
Who would not like to be in his place? Sure it sucks to get fired but that is a nice Golden Parachute. |
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JaguarCrazy2832
Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 73469
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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I think Lovie would be really good in SD, he can def win that division
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JammerHammer21
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
Posts: 18068
Location: Anywhere
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Superman(DH23) wrote: | | 101Raider wrote: | | So with the Chargers hiring McCoy what's the next stop for Lovie? I thought he was pretty well thought of and respected around the league... Hell I though he'd be off the market ala Reid in a hurry. Any thoughts Chicago fans? |
Ian Rappaport was just on the radio saying maybe AZ, but his issue has been selling his expected OC, which the name being heard the most is Pep Hamilton (former Bears QB coach, current OC at Stanford) |
AZ doesn't make sense considering one of the best defensive minds is there....
_________________
| Bohlmann20 (On The 95 Cleveland Browns Staff) wrote: | | Lombardi - Isn't that the guy the trophy is named after? If so, top 3 coach of all time. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7064
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| JaguarCrazy2832 wrote: | | I think Lovie would be really good in SD, he can def win that division |
He can't find an offense, SD is the last team that would hire him. |
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JammerHammer21
Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ChicagoAl wrote: | | JaguarCrazy2832 wrote: | | I think Lovie would be really good in SD, he can def win that division |
He can't find an offense, SD is the last team that would hire him. |
Well it doesn't matter since we have a HC. Lock it up.
_________________
| Bohlmann20 (On The 95 Cleveland Browns Staff) wrote: | | Lombardi - Isn't that the guy the trophy is named after? If so, top 3 coach of all time. |
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game3525
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 2021
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Lovie needs to take the year off and brush up on some potential OC's because he won't get a HC unless he can find one. |
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ChicagoAl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7064
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| Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| game3525 wrote: | | Lovie needs to take the year off and brush up on some potential OC's because he won't get a HC unless he can find one. |
I think he is in great shape. Why take just any job when you don't have to? Who knows, Dallas could open up next year and he might get a look there. |
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