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Vikefan79
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 29745
Location: Atlanta
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 Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| Andre Reed has no business being in the HOF. I'd love to see what these voters are looking at when they consider him and for whatever reason put him ahead of Brown and Carter. |
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Konrad
Joined: 12 Jan 2013
Posts: 30
Location: Orbiting The Great Attractor
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:41 am Post subject: |
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There is nothing even vaguely HOF worthy about Bettis. There's a laundry list of guys who had as much longevity but at positions that are far less glamorous and don't accumulate statistics (mainly defense) that don't even get considered.
Couple that with his total lack of elite seasons and it's and open and shut case.
In general, accumulators don't belong anywhere near the HOF.
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marshawn lynch
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 17558
Location: Syracuse NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Vikefan79 wrote: | | marshawn lynch wrote: | | TommyC376 wrote: | | Its going to be tough for Andre Reed to get in with both Tim Brown and Cris Carter as finalists too. |
I believe that Reed had more votes than both of them last year. |
Yeah I'm still trying to figure that one out. |
He has actually got closer to getting in over the other two the past 3 years. Dont see why this year would be any different.
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nugpimpen
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 18304
Location: 10 Miles South of Cleveland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Konrad wrote: | There is nothing even vaguely HOF worthy about Bettis. There's a laundry list of guys who had as much longevity but at positions that are far less glamorous and don't accumulate statistics (mainly defense) that don't even get considered.
Couple that with his total lack of elite seasons and it's and open and shut case.
In general, accumulators don't belong anywhere near the HOF. |
Steeler
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PurpleLion
Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 2372
Location: Baltimore Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| marshawn lynch wrote: | | Vikefan79 wrote: | | marshawn lynch wrote: | | TommyC376 wrote: | | Its going to be tough for Andre Reed to get in with both Tim Brown and Cris Carter as finalists too. |
I believe that Reed had more votes than both of them last year. |
Yeah I'm still trying to figure that one out. |
He has actually got closer to getting in over the other two the past 3 years. Dont see why this year would be any different. |
There have been plenty of good players who have nearly made it as finalists and then become a semifinalist because of the influx of those in the next few ballots who are almost guaranteed to be inducted. Favre and others will be equally arriving. Could push players like Reed further away from being enshrined that quickly. This ballot has multi OL and multi WR that are being considered. The difference is that Allen, Odgen and Shields are all comparable with OL who are already enshrined. Brown, Carter and Reed are comparable on a lesser standard of play to each other. It's possible the committee will think why one of the WR instead of the other and they might pick neither of these players. |
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JonnyQuest
Joined: 23 Jun 2011
Posts: 1685
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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For all the Curtis Martin haters, how does he NOT deserve to be in the HoF? How can you have the 4th leading rusher of all time on the outside looking in. He wasn't ever really considered the best at his position, but the guy was a 5x All Pro and won a rushing title at 31 years of age with a 4.6 ypc. Truly one of the more underrated players of this generation.
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Jakuvious
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 7856
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| JonnyQuest wrote: | | For all the Curtis Martin haters, how does he NOT deserve to be in the HoF? How can you have the 4th leading rusher of all time on the outside looking in. He wasn't ever really considered the best at his position, but the guy was a 5x All Pro and won a rushing title at 31 years of age with a 4.6 ypc. Truly one of the more underrated players of this generation. |
He was never really that good, he was only an All-Pro once, not five times, and the year he won the rushing title was the only year he ever lead the league in any statistic (also leading the league in carries that season), and is one of only two times he topped 4.2 ypc. He was also a mediocre receiver. The guy was never great.
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JonnyQuest
Joined: 23 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Jakuvious wrote: | | JonnyQuest wrote: | | For all the Curtis Martin haters, how does he NOT deserve to be in the HoF? How can you have the 4th leading rusher of all time on the outside looking in. He wasn't ever really considered the best at his position, but the guy was a 5x All Pro and won a rushing title at 31 years of age with a 4.6 ypc. Truly one of the more underrated players of this generation. |
He was never really that good, he was only an All-Pro once, not five times, and the year he won the rushing title was the only year he ever lead the league in any statistic (also leading the league in carries that season), and is one of only two times he topped 4.2 ypc. He was also a mediocre receiver. The guy was never great. |
He made 1st team All-Pro once. He made 2nd team All Pro once. He made UPI All Conference I think 3 times. I guess UPI All Conf doesn't mean anything, but the seasons he was elected for those honors were some extremely productive ones. He is also the only player other than Barry Sanders to start his career off with 10 straight 1,000 yard seasons.
The season he led the league in carries he had a 4.6 ypc. It isn't like he was amassing bulk yardage with terrible efficiency. And how was he just a mediocre receiver. The guy had a 70 reception season and only two seasons under 40. One was his rookie year, the other was his injury shortened final year.
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Jakuvious
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 7856
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| JonnyQuest wrote: |
He made 1st team All-Pro once. He made 2nd team All Pro once. He made UPI All Conference I think 3 times. I guess UPI All Conf doesn't mean anything, but the seasons he was elected for those honors were some extremely productive ones. He is also the only player other than Barry Sanders to start his career off with 10 straight 1,000 yard seasons.
The season he led the league in carries he had a 4.6 ypc. It isn't like he was amassing bulk yardage with terrible efficiency. And how was he just a mediocre receiver. The guy had a 70 reception season and only two seasons under 40. One was his rookie year, the other was his injury shortened final year. |
He was a compiler. The 10 seasons with 1000 yards is exactly that kind of stat.
He did have terrible efficiency. He had the one season at 4.6 ypc, and one at 4.5. Those were years of mediocre efficiency. The rest were all incredibly subpar, at 4.2 or lower. That IS terrible efficiency. Especially for a guy you're trying to argue belongs in the hall of fame. And he was a mediocre receiver because I watched him play, not because of the stats. Catching a lot of passes doesn't make you a good receiver, it makes you a guy who was thrown at a lot. He did little with his receiving opportunities and was mediocre at best when in space with the football.
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JonnyQuest
Joined: 23 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Jakuvious wrote: | | JonnyQuest wrote: |
He made 1st team All-Pro once. He made 2nd team All Pro once. He made UPI All Conference I think 3 times. I guess UPI All Conf doesn't mean anything, but the seasons he was elected for those honors were some extremely productive ones. He is also the only player other than Barry Sanders to start his career off with 10 straight 1,000 yard seasons.
The season he led the league in carries he had a 4.6 ypc. It isn't like he was amassing bulk yardage with terrible efficiency. And how was he just a mediocre receiver. The guy had a 70 reception season and only two seasons under 40. One was his rookie year, the other was his injury shortened final year. |
He was a compiler. The 10 seasons with 1000 yards is exactly that kind of stat.
He did have terrible efficiency. He had the one season at 4.6 ypc, and one at 4.5. Those were years of mediocre efficiency. The rest were all incredibly subpar, at 4.2 or lower. That IS terrible efficiency. Especially for a guy you're trying to argue belongs in the hall of fame. And he was a mediocre receiver because I watched him play, not because of the stats. Catching a lot of passes doesn't make you a good receiver, it makes you a guy who was thrown at a lot. He did little with his receiving opportunities and was mediocre at best when in space with the football. |
I watched him play as well. He was an above average receiver. He was never an open field magic maker, but he had reliable hands, and his YPC was impressive. How can you fault him for being targeted often? Do you also discredit Calvin Johnson's record? The efficiency statement was regarding his All Pro season, not his whole career. Even if he was a compiler, and I agree to a degree he was, you don't compile enough yards to land 4th on the all time list by being just pretty good.
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Jakuvious
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| JonnyQuest wrote: |
I watched him play as well. He was an above average receiver. He was never an open field magic maker, but he had reliable hands, and his YPC was impressive. How can you fault him for being targeted often? Do you also discredit Calvin Johnson's record? The efficiency statement was regarding his All Pro season, not his whole career. Even if he was a compiler, and I agree to a degree he was, you don't compile enough yards to land 4th on the all time list by being just pretty good. |
His YPC really wasn't impressive. And I'm not faulting him for being targetted a lot, I'm just saying being thrown at a lot doesn't make you good, because that's really the only good thing you can mention receiving wise. And yeah, you can get that high up just by compiling, because he was just pretty good his whole career. Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is.
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JMG
Joined: 23 Dec 2012
Posts: 3099
Location: Columbia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Ogden, Parcells and Strahan and definitely getting in. Those are really the only ones I care about. |
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Malik
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
Posts: 4140
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Jakuvious wrote: | | JonnyQuest wrote: |
I watched him play as well. He was an above average receiver. He was never an open field magic maker, but he had reliable hands, and his YPC was impressive. How can you fault him for being targeted often? Do you also discredit Calvin Johnson's record? The efficiency statement was regarding his All Pro season, not his whole career. Even if he was a compiler, and I agree to a degree he was, you don't compile enough yards to land 4th on the all time list by being just pretty good. |
His YPC really wasn't impressive. And I'm not faulting him for being targetted a lot, I'm just saying being thrown at a lot doesn't make you good, because that's really the only good thing you can mention receiving wise. And yeah, you can get that high up just by compiling, because he was just pretty good his whole career. Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is. |
Curtis Martin is the only NFL player that has that very specific definition of compiling. That's all I'm going to say on this topic. |
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Jakuvious
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Posts: 7856
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Malik wrote: | | Jakuvious wrote: | | JonnyQuest wrote: |
I watched him play as well. He was an above average receiver. He was never an open field magic maker, but he had reliable hands, and his YPC was impressive. How can you fault him for being targeted often? Do you also discredit Calvin Johnson's record? The efficiency statement was regarding his All Pro season, not his whole career. Even if he was a compiler, and I agree to a degree he was, you don't compile enough yards to land 4th on the all time list by being just pretty good. |
His YPC really wasn't impressive. And I'm not faulting him for being targetted a lot, I'm just saying being thrown at a lot doesn't make you good, because that's really the only good thing you can mention receiving wise. And yeah, you can get that high up just by compiling, because he was just pretty good his whole career. Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is. |
Curtis Martin is the only NFL player that has that very specific definition of compiling. That's all I'm going to say on this topic. |
What Martin is knocked for is no different than Bettis. And to a lesser extent, even guys like Tim Brown, Andre Reed, and Art Monk.
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Malik
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
Posts: 4140
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Jakuvious wrote: | | Malik wrote: | | Jakuvious wrote: | | JonnyQuest wrote: |
I watched him play as well. He was an above average receiver. He was never an open field magic maker, but he had reliable hands, and his YPC was impressive. How can you fault him for being targeted often? Do you also discredit Calvin Johnson's record? The efficiency statement was regarding his All Pro season, not his whole career. Even if he was a compiler, and I agree to a degree he was, you don't compile enough yards to land 4th on the all time list by being just pretty good. |
His YPC really wasn't impressive. And I'm not faulting him for being targetted a lot, I'm just saying being thrown at a lot doesn't make you good, because that's really the only good thing you can mention receiving wise. And yeah, you can get that high up just by compiling, because he was just pretty good his whole career. Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is. |
Curtis Martin is the only NFL player that has that very specific definition of compiling. That's all I'm going to say on this topic. |
What Martin is knocked for is no different than Bettis. And to a lesser extent, even guys like Tim Brown, Andre Reed, and Art Monk. |
Except Martin played less seasons than Bettis and was never in a two back system. You can't be a stat accumulator at the running back position by being the sole running back on every single team you were on your entire career while also playing less seasons.
Curtis Martin's only failing is that he didn't have all of his best seasons in a row. You put 95, 96, 99, 01, and 04 in a row and there would be far less complaints. |
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