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Rumor: Greg Roman and Alex Smith to come as pair
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MoJo122-b-21


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguarfan wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jordan Palmer, probably.

Yeah but, why would we stick with Palmer over Henne?


Other than the Houston game, where his receivers ran for more yards than the guy passed for, he was simply a terrible player. You know you're getting an erratic, average quarterback with Henne, while there is a chance Palmer can be a quality player. Also, the pricetag.

Palmer showed some good things during camp and the preseason last year to show he deserved a shot - unfortunately Henne was just signed.

I'm not saying Palmer is the future or any good at all. But I am saying Henne isn't.
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MoJo122-b-21 wrote:
Jaguarfan wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jordan Palmer, probably.

Yeah but, why would we stick with Palmer over Henne?


Other than the Houston game, where his receivers ran for more yards than the guy passed for, he was simply a terrible player. You know you're getting an erratic, average quarterback with Henne, while there is a chance Palmer can be a quality player. Also, the pricetag.

Palmer showed some good things during camp and the preseason last year to show he deserved a shot - unfortunately Henne was just signed.

I'm not saying Palmer is the future or any good at all. But I am saying Henne isn't.

Palmer couldn't even beat out Henne for a roster spot. Henne isn't that expensive. He definitely should stay over Palmer.
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AngryPirate


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
AngryPirate wrote:
MoJo122-b-21 wrote:
JaguarCrazy2832 wrote:
I still want Geno over Alex but if we got Alex and then got a beast defender, I'd be okay


I'd rather move forward with Blaine and Palmer than bother with Smith. But the QB class is seemingly weak while the impact players on defense seem so numerous.

I say give Blaine a real opportunity to shine under an established QB molder. If Blaine doesn't have it, at least you know and you have an opportunity at what will most likely be a much stronger class in 2014. It's going to be hard to see us pass on a potential dominant defender for the sake of chasing a need at quarterback.


Henne will remain. I have a jaguars henne jersey so he better not leave.




no seriously i do, i made it out of a leftwich jersey. looks really good too, wore it to the Bills game this year, Bills fans were coming up to me all day asking why id buy a henne jersey.
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AngryPirate wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
AngryPirate wrote:
MoJo122-b-21 wrote:
JaguarCrazy2832 wrote:
I still want Geno over Alex but if we got Alex and then got a beast defender, I'd be okay


I'd rather move forward with Blaine and Palmer than bother with Smith. But the QB class is seemingly weak while the impact players on defense seem so numerous.

I say give Blaine a real opportunity to shine under an established QB molder. If Blaine doesn't have it, at least you know and you have an opportunity at what will most likely be a much stronger class in 2014. It's going to be hard to see us pass on a potential dominant defender for the sake of chasing a need at quarterback.


Henne will remain. I have a jaguars henne jersey so he better not leave.




no seriously i do, i made it out of a leftwich jersey. looks really good too, wore it to the Bills game this year, Bills fans were coming up to me all day asking why id buy a henne jersey.

Was your Leftwich jersey made out of your Steve Beuerlein jersey?
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MoJo122-b-21


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguarfan wrote:
MoJo122-b-21 wrote:
Jaguarfan wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jordan Palmer, probably.

Yeah but, why would we stick with Palmer over Henne?


Other than the Houston game, where his receivers ran for more yards than the guy passed for, he was simply a terrible player. You know you're getting an erratic, average quarterback with Henne, while there is a chance Palmer can be a quality player. Also, the pricetag.

Palmer showed some good things during camp and the preseason last year to show he deserved a shot - unfortunately Henne was just signed.

I'm not saying Palmer is the future or any good at all. But I am saying Henne isn't.

Palmer couldn't even beat out Henne for a roster spot. Henne isn't that expensive. He definitely should stay over Palmer.


Palmer was the superior player through camp and preseason. Had Henne not just signed a contract, which essentially guaranteed him a roster spot for the season, he'd have been cut for being a terrible player.
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MoJo122-b-21 wrote:
Jaguarfan wrote:
MoJo122-b-21 wrote:
Jaguarfan wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Jordan Palmer, probably.

Yeah but, why would we stick with Palmer over Henne?


Other than the Houston game, where his receivers ran for more yards than the guy passed for, he was simply a terrible player. You know you're getting an erratic, average quarterback with Henne, while there is a chance Palmer can be a quality player. Also, the pricetag.

Palmer showed some good things during camp and the preseason last year to show he deserved a shot - unfortunately Henne was just signed.

I'm not saying Palmer is the future or any good at all. But I am saying Henne isn't.

Palmer couldn't even beat out Henne for a roster spot. Henne isn't that expensive. He definitely should stay over Palmer.


Palmer was the superior player through camp and preseason. Had Henne not just signed a contract, which essentially guaranteed him a roster spot for the season, he'd have been cut for being a terrible player.

He played better in preseason. Don't know about camp. Gabbert played well in camp and preseason. Henne is better than Palmer, and also younger.
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mikeyfarley


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
mikeyfarley wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
mikeyfarley wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
No, the other thread was about who would be our starting QB next in 2013. Wink
trying to change the subject again? nice troll job.
I never said that wasn't the thread, but in the thread we we talking about a different topic. You said worst QB in 2011 was Tebow, that was the topic in the thread we were talking about.


It was a joke. Holy crap.

You must be a delight at parties. Laughing


what's the joke? you were pretending I stated that the other thread was called something else, but i didn't?

Wow, you're a laugh riot.




now you're judging the tone that I'm typing with? I guess you can read minds as well as troll.

Still don't see how anything you posted constitutes a joke.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could we get back on topic, please. Thanks.

-pwny
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mikeyfarley


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
mikeyfarley wrote:
I don't. I used those 2 stats in a different thread about a different topic.


So you think that QB Rating and TD:INT rating showed that Tebow had a better year, right? If each of Smith's last 4 years are better than either of those guys' year, how is he not a better player?

Quote:
How many draft pics do we need to give up to get Henne or Gabbert on our team next year? Will either of them demand a salary as big as $8 mil a year? Because that's what Alex Smith's current contract costs.


Or you wait for the 49ers to cut him. Because of how his contract is structured, they're likely to let him go. And then you sign him to a modest deal and let a QB develop behind him.

Quote:
All 3 are crap, you can pretend differently all you want.


Is Alex Smith crap though? I mean, you, yourself said that "Alex Smith was very efficient this year" And that "Last year he was 9th in QB rating and he led his team to the playoffs, are you pretending Alex Smith is a failure the last 2 seasons?"

And if even before Roman went there, Alex Smith had two straight seasons better than anything that either of the current QBs on our roster did, wouldn't that kind of lend credence to the idea that Roman can get more out of Smith than he'll likely get out of the other two? He was already better than the other two proved to be thus far.


You don't answer my questions I'm not answering yours. Do you think cutting out parts of my previous post, in your quotation of me, makes those parts disappear?
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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iPwn


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikeyfarley wrote:
iPwn wrote:
mikeyfarley wrote:
I don't. I used those 2 stats in a different thread about a different topic.


So you think that QB Rating and TD:INT rating showed that Tebow had a better year, right? If each of Smith's last 4 years are better than either of those guys' year, how is he not a better player?

Quote:
How many draft pics do we need to give up to get Henne or Gabbert on our team next year? Will either of them demand a salary as big as $8 mil a year? Because that's what Alex Smith's current contract costs.


Or you wait for the 49ers to cut him. Because of how his contract is structured, they're likely to let him go. And then you sign him to a modest deal and let a QB develop behind him.

Quote:
All 3 are crap, you can pretend differently all you want.


Is Alex Smith crap though? I mean, you, yourself said that "Alex Smith was very efficient this year" And that "Last year he was 9th in QB rating and he led his team to the playoffs, are you pretending Alex Smith is a failure the last 2 seasons?"

And if even before Roman went there, Alex Smith had two straight seasons better than anything that either of the current QBs on our roster did, wouldn't that kind of lend credence to the idea that Roman can get more out of Smith than he'll likely get out of the other two? He was already better than the other two proved to be thus far.


You don't answer my questions I'm not answering yours. Do you think cutting out parts of my previous post, in your quotation of me, makes those parts disappear?


What questions that you asked did I leave unanswered?

Here's your post, with what I left in and replied to in red. I even will bold the only questions you asked.
Quote:
I don't. I used those 2 stats in a different thread about a different topic. I gave my reasons why I'm against getting Alex Smith in my 1st post in this thread maybe you should re-read it.

How many draft pics do we need to give up to get Henne or Gabbert on our team next year? Will either of them demand a salary as big as $8 mil a year? Because that's what Alex Smith's current contract costs.

All 3 are crap, you can pretend differently all you want. If Smith was already on the team at a reasonable price and Henne or Gabbert weren't, then I would prefer Smith. If Roman can improve Smith over the last 2 seasons then why couldn't he do the same thing with Gabbert or Henne? None of them are the long term answer. Gabbert had a much better rookie year than Smith did.

Likewise, any of them could be coached up to be a stopgag QB for a year or two.


I'd rather have SF's DC Fangio as the HC, but I wouldn't hate it if we got Roman


It seems to me you asked two questions.

1. If the other two cost as much as Alex Smith does, or will cost draft picks. I answered that by stating that you don't trade for Alex Smith, you wait for him to be cut and then sign him to a reasonable deal. It answers your question, as Smith will not cost draft picks or $8 million in that scenario.

2. You asked "If Roman can improve Smith over the last 2 seasons then why couldn't he do the same thing with Gabbert or Henne?" I answered that by stating "And if even before Roman went there, Alex Smith had two straight seasons better than anything that either of the current QBs on our roster did, wouldn't that kind of lend credence to the idea that Roman can get more out of Smith than he'll likely get out of the other two? He was already better than the other two proved to be thus far."

If I missed another question, I'll gladly answer it. But all the questions I see that you have asked of me have been answered. Just because I cleaned up what I was quoting because it wasn't wholly relevant to what my exact reply was doesn't mean I didn't answer it. If you like, I can reply to each individual sentence you typed up. In fact, I have some time, I'll go ahead and do that.

Quote:
I don't. I used those 2 stats in a different thread about a different topic.
Yes, you did. But shouldn't the way you evaluate who is a better player in any given year also be the same basis for how you define who the better players all together are?

If you'll pardon the copy-paste:

So you think that QB Rating and TD:INT rating showed that Tebow had a better year, right? If each of Smith's last 4 years are better than either of those guys' year, how is he not a better player?

I just don't understand how you can say one set of criteria defines who played better, see that one player, for 4 straight years, was better than the other two players in question based on that criteria, and not admit that he's a better player based on the criteria you set. It just doesn't make sense.

I also hope you'll pardon me for not replying to "I don't individually, despite saying each individual sentence. It was hard to come up with a rebuttal to just that.

Quote:
I gave my reasons why I'm against getting Alex Smith in my 1st post in this thread maybe you should re-read it.
I'm guessing that this is supposed to be where I pull up your first post and reply to that? You got it!

Quote:
Alex Smith stinks
I'm going to answer this statement with a statement that you, yourself made.

"Every passing stat is taken into account in QB rating. It's a great way to judge a QB's efficiency, and yes Alex Smith was very efficient this year. However he didn't throw enough passes to qualify for the QB rating stat at the end of the season, so unless he plays and throws passes the last 2 games he won't count. Last year he was 9th in QB rating and he led his team to the playoffs, are you pretending Alex Smith is a failure the last 2 seasons? I guess you see all the 49er games don't you? lol"

How can you claim that he both stinks, and laud him for his efficiency and laugh at him being viewed as a failure? Isn't that a bit contradictory?

Quote:
and is overpaid.
Not wholly relevant though, is it? There's certainly several ways to mitigate his cost, and I don't think any of them are options that are unexplorable. Further, the Jaguars cap situation would tend to allow for an "overpaid" QB to play for a year or who with no negative ramifications. Regardless, I doubt it ever gets to that point, as I seriously doubt he's given the same type of contract he was given in SF, which was partially an "we're sorry for playing the Manning sweepstakes" contract.

Quote:
Both QBs the Jags have can do what Smith did if all they have to do is hand the ball of the whole game.
Really? Because I seem to remember Gabbert handing the ball off a ton as a rookie, and he certainly wasn't passing with any type of efficiency.

Quote:
The 49ers made do with what they had last year.
I think they more than made do with him. Being a special teams mistake away from making the Super Bowl seems like they did just fine with him at the helm.

Quote:
If they could take a complete bust like Smith and let him only throw about 20 times or fewer a game and be successful,
He actually threw the ball 26 times per game this year and nearly 28 last year.

Quote:
they can do it with Gabbert or Henne.
I believe we have 1 win in the last two years when either of those two play the game and account for fewer than 20 passes. Doesn't seem wholly likely that we will be able to get away with what you're claiming. Just saying.

Quote:
No need to trade for a crap QB, or sign him(if he gets cut) to a contract bigger than Henne's.
Certainly there's no need to do it. But it would likely be largely beneficial.



Now back to the first post I was replying to.
Quote:
How many draft pics do we need to give up to get Henne or Gabbert on our team next year?
Zero. Coincidentally, this is also the same amount of draft picks needed to sign a player who is cut by another team.

Quote:
Will either of them demand a salary as big as $8 mil a year?
Nope. But neither will Alex Smith if he is cut.

Quote:
Because that's what Alex Smith's current contract costs.
Which raises my question... Has any one been in favor of trading for him? I just did a quick read through of the thread, and I don't see one person that has said that they favor a trade for Smith. The only real mention of how to acquire him was made by me when I explicitly stated "sign Alex Smith" and not "trade for Alex Smith." Additionally, his cap situation, where he costs $8 million and is due a $1 million roster bonus in April makes the idea that the 49ers would only let go of him via trade very unlikely. So while I agree that under his current contract and trading a pick for him is undesirable, he would not have to come at either of those costs. I don't know if you missed that or if you're intentionally glossing over it, but that is that case. Alex Smith should not cost $8 million and a draft pick to have him in a Jaguars uniform next year.

Quote:
All 3 are crap, you can pretend differently all you want.
I'll just do another copy past here:

Is Alex Smith crap though? I mean, you, yourself said that "Alex Smith was very efficient this year" And that "Last year he was 9th in QB rating and he led his team to the playoffs, are you pretending Alex Smith is a failure the last 2 seasons?"

If he hasn't been a "failure" the last two seasons, and for 4 seasons has put up better numbers than either of the other two have done in any year of their career, how can you justify labeling him as crap in the same way you label the other two?

Quote:
If Smith was already on the team at a reasonable price and Henne or Gabbert weren't, then I would prefer Smith
Which is fair. But what if Smith was a Free Agent and you could get him for that reasonable price? Because, again, this is what I think most people are okay with. The idea of trading a pick for that contract isn't enticing, it's him coming here on a free agent contract to run an offense we know he can be efficient in that is what people are hoping for out of this.

Quote:
If Roman can improve Smith over the last 2 seasons then why couldn't he do the same thing with Gabbert or Henne?
He could. And probably would. But have Henne or Gabbert ever even had one season like the two seasons he had before linking up with Roman? The answer is no. And with that in mind, it's very logical to believe that while he likely will be able to get more out of Gabbert or Henne than they are playing now, it won't be as much as he can get out of Smith.

Quote:
None of them are the long term answer.
Agreed. There's still the possibility of Gabbert developing, but it's certainly not something to expect at this point. Still, we need someone to play that role for a year or two. Unless we're drafting Geno or Tyler Wilson and throwing him in day one, it doesn't seem likely that we won't see one of these three won't be starting for a year or two. And there's certainly a logical train of thought that suggests Alex Smith will continue to have more success in Roman's offense than the other two will. There's also a logical train of thought that Alex Smith, for all his experience, will be better suited to mentor the developmental guy we bring in.

Quote:
Gabbert had a much better rookie year than Smith did.
That he did. His two years pre-Roman are also worse than Smith's two pre-Roman years, aren't they? Not to say that Gabbert can't become better than Smith, but simply relying on rookie years for data isn't exactly fair. I mean Eli's rookie year was very similar to Gabbert's, but I'm not certain that anyone in their right mind wouldn't send Gabbert and a pick for Eli and his contract.

Quote:
Likewise, any of them could be coached up to be a stopgag QB for a year or two.
I'm not entirely sure this is true. Regardless, certain players will offer more upside. The data that we have from the two years prior to Smith meeting up with Roman suggests he was further along than either of the two on the roster.

Quote:
I'd rather have SF's DC Fangio as the HC, but I wouldn't hate it if we got Roman
I prefer Roman to Fangio, but my #3 choice is Fangio, behind Roman and Bradley. I wouldn't mind him in the slightest though, so I'm not sure there's much to disagree with here. I prefer Roman because I know he will have a close relationship with Caldwell and they will work together well, as I also am a big fan of the innovative stuff he's doing with that offense.


Now you can go ahead and address my questions. Because I think I've been more than accommodating in answering everything you asked multiple times now.
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sadjag


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(just pretend this is a funny gif that says something like "relax you're scaring the children")
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you made a different jersey out of another Confused
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