Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Doing the 2012 draft over.
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Basketball
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
l3lind golfer


Most Valuable Poster (6th Ballot)

Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 34559
Location: California
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

El ramster wrote:
l3lind golfer wrote:
Lillard is a rookie and is better than Walker, there's no doubt in my mind Lillard will be the better player 5 years from now. Damian Lillard is such a beast, the Blazers wouldn't be as good with Walker running the show.



You don't know that.
Okay, but I am making a prediction based on how I have seen both play. Don't really care what the numbers say (Lillard's are still better), just watch both of them play. Lillard is the better player.
_________________
Mossburg wrote:
HootersPatrol wrote:
This your first year of watching football?


Clearly. I joined this site in 2005 to talk movies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 21397
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Austin Rivers goes some where in the second round.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Supersuavesky


Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 28995
Location: Anywhere But Here
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why Kemba Walker is a better player then Damian Lilliard


1.) Efficiency:

Take a look at the PER right now. Even if you don't necessary believe in it as a solid player tool or simply don't like it period you can't deny the fact that it is a strong measure of how a player competes from a game to game basis. For those of you who don't know this stat does a good job of showing how a player preforms on both offense and defense.

As of right now the current PER for the two players:

Lilliard: 16.48

Walker: 18.70

That's a noticeable disparity. To put it even further in to perspective the highest Lilliard's PER has been since the first week or so of the season is around the range of 18.90 give or take a bit. Kemba Walker mid way through december? At one point it was at a solid 20.73. During that stretch and up until last week Walker averaged more points, rebounds, steals, and blocks than Lilliard.

That's a pretty big stretch considering the so called better players was inferior in every category but one up until that point.

But knowing you all we'll have to take this a bit further won't we?

Lilliard is listed at 6-3 and 195 pounds. Walker is listed at 6-1 and 180 pounds. That's a 2 inch and near twenty pound difference in between them. And yet Lilliard is at marginally at best stronger in TS% then the notably undersized Walker.

Defensive statistics are much in the same trend with Walker holding a narrow lead despite Lilliard being two inches taller. In addition Walker is, ironically one of the best at taking charges despite his small size. In terms of steals Walker is currently in a somewhat of a slump falling from his place at fourth in the entire league and over 2 a game (Which I expect to go back up) down to seventh.... Lillard isn't even in the top fifty at less then a full every three games.

Which brings us to the part and Lilliard's one and true argument.

2.) Scoring:

Points are fun. And fans like them. It's why were having this debate in the first place. People see Lillard putting up points and think much of it.

As I stated before in the last week Kemba is in a five game slump in terms of points... Which actually says a ton about how efficient he is considering he's averaging over 45 percent from the field in this current stretch. Coming in to the month he was at 18.8 and up until last SAT was at where Lillard is right now at 18.1. Walker came in then at number 13 in scoring per game for all NBA players.

Current shooting percentage for the year stands at this.

Lilliard: .420%

Walker: .429%

Close? Certainly but there is a noticeable difference. This in fact is a big sticking point on to why Walker is the superior player. After all what good is a scoring guard who can barely score?

To put in to more context Walker finished the month of December around .414 or so on the season while Lillard hovered around the high twenties. Since then Walker has gotten much better while Lilliard has gotten worse.

Which pulls up in to so many different directions that I won't bother to cover them all but I'll sum it up in one all important word: Spacing.

You see both Walker and Lilliard are supbar at best in three point shooting. That's to be expected by young NBA player though. What isn't alright is the how there doing it. Currently Lilliard is averaging less then a full point a game... While averaging over three more 3 point attempts a contest.

Now I can't tell you for a fact because I don't see Portland nearly as much as their fans do, and I know they don't see us, but I know for Walker at least he doesn't really like to take the three ball. In fact the Bobcats are near the bottom in both 3 pointers attempted and made. It's maddeing to me. I can't count on my hands how many games within the last month alone where an opposing team finished with more three pointers made then we've even attempted.

As for Walker this goes back in to that magical thing called spacing. You see for the Bobcats' it's, at best, god awful.

This is my biggest point for why Walker is a better overall player.

3.) The Effect Of Surronding talent:

The Bobcats front court is F'ing terrible. Like really bad. Like really, really really, really bad. I sometimes joke it's the worst ever... It's making me sad because it's pretty close to the truth.

To sum up how bad the players from positions 3-5 are I'll just give you the PER's again.

Brendan Haywood: 9.27. Avg: 4 PPG, 5 REB, .8 BLK. Shooting 47%
DeSanga Diop: 7.51. I won't go in to it. That bad. Less then a point per game.

Bismack Biyombo: 10.17. Avg: 5 PPG, 7 REB, 1.6 BLK. Shooting 45%. If you think that's kinda solid... In the last ten he's shooting an even 40 from the field.

Jeff Adrian: 11.38. Avg: 3 PPG 4 REB. 46%

Byron Mullens: 12.45 Avg: 12 PPG 8 REB. Shooting 37% from the field. PS, I actually miss this guy.

Tyrus Thomas. PER is 8.66. I don't wanna post the rest... It's like 31% from the field.

Hakeem Warrick: He's been our best big... at 11.72 for PER and 40 from the field. Average less then four rebounds a game.

Jeff Taylor: 9.71. Avg: 7 PPG, 2 REB. 41% FG.

MKG: 16.11. AVG 11 PPG, 6 REB. At 48% I'm made he doesn't chuck it up more.

So that's our front court. Mix-and-Match it however you want. It still sucks.

I never really truly realized how much a front court mattered to the guards until this year. It's a lot. A whole lot. And considering how offense is pick and roll everything it's even worse.

What does Lilliard work with?

Glad you asked.

J.J. Hickson: PER 20.04. Avg: 12 PPG, 11 REB, 1 BLK, shooting at 54 FG

Lamarcus Aldridge(Aka one of the best bigs in the world): PER is 19.47. Averaging 21 PPG, 9 REB, and 1 BLK on 46% from the field. This is a down year for him. A down year.

So back to that spacing thing. Because that's all I need. I could go on about how great Batum is this season or how Weasley Matthews is having a career year from three point land but I won't. I think I've made my point.

Considering the horrible mess that is the Bobcats' half court sets I'd like for you to image what it's like to be Kemba Walker and Damian Lilliard.

I'm Lilliard. Pick and roll. The big reaches out to me.... Take that jumper Lamarcus. Or you know what, I'll just toss it out to Batum for an open three.

Kemba Walker.... Oh.... The Center is driving me to the sideline. Here Biyombo just hold- Never mind, get back on D. Maybe next time I'll pass it to MKG, at least he'll pretend to jab step with that six foot cushion there giving him instead of just outright dropping it.

You don't understand that I am literally not overracting when I say that no matter what team we play Kemba Walker is literally double teamed when ever the ball touches his hands. Without fail. If were lucky Ben Gordon will be out there to dribble around until he turns it over. Or maybe Sessions will pass it to back to Kemba with only five on the shoot clock. That's where the majority of his threes come from. Desperation.

That's why what Walker has done this year is so much more impressive. Because he's literally playing with complete scrubs. He's Charlotte's only offense. What happens when he goes out of the game for five minutes? A 10-0 Scoring run. That's what frustrates me about MKG. The number 2 overall pick should want to to more then stand around and pretend to drive. Walker needs help.


The fact that Kemba Walker has manged as well as he has with what little he works with is simply freaking amazing. When he drives to the bakset he knows that 6 times out of ten he's going to get thrown to the ground or his shoot is going to get blocked. He knows that. There is no spacing to pull the bigs away. No one is afraid of Brendan Haywood and and Bismack Biyombo. Hell, they want Mullens to chuck up another three.

Walker is trying to pull of the amazing every night. I honestly think sometimes that this team is worse then last years.

Which brings me to the third part:

3.) Assist:

Again, this slump Walker is on? Yeah, really misleading. You see his PPG have dropped by one because he's dropped his shoot attempts by three. he's not shooting the ball half as much. In fact he's passing it more.... And still struggling to get to at least six assist a game.

Did everyone see how bad those FG percentage are? Take in to account I didn't put up the other guards. That's even worse. The second leading scorer right now is Ramon Sessions... He's shooting less then 40 from the field.

Walker was around 6.2 Asst per game this time last week. That's freaking amazing. 6 per game with this crap? That's up there with turning water to wine and a rabbit out of a hat. Considering no one can shoot the ball you have to understand he is practically force feeding them these assist. Bismack Biyombo's scoring games come off of how well his hands are working that particular night aka can I catch that Walker pass.

It baffles me. Blows my mind how someone who did nothing but score the ball in college can suddenly pass so well. Walker does wrap arounds. He does look aways. He does no looks and spinning dishes.... You don't see half of them, because people suck to much to put the ball in the metal circle.

This is arguably the biggest reason why Walker is better. Because he's making his teammates better. They've all gotten this far thanks to him. We're dead last in asst per game as a team even though Walker is averaging half a dozen. That's ridiculous.

That's another reason why Lilliard's season isn't better. He has LAMARCUS ALDRIGE AS HIS PICK MAN... Aldridge. That's four guaranteed assist a game right there. Kemba Walker? BISMACK BIYOMBO....

How fair is that? Never mind the fact that Matthews has been knocking down threes like crazy or that J.J. Hickson is shooting darn near sixty percent from the field. Let's take away Batum for a bit and see how many assist Lilliard would get with Luke Babbitt and Victor Claver every night. And while it's done let's insert Barton in for Matthews for a week.

Speaking of crappy teammates, does anyone wanna ask El Ramster how bad the rest of the Bobcats are?

Kemba screwed up big time... Only had one assist against the Pacers tuesday... Probably because as a whole the team shot 34 percent from the field....

With Walker going 6-9 So that means the Bobcats as a whole without him that night would have been oh something around the lines of...

19 of 65... Oh and the Pacers out rebounded us 60 to 31.


Look at the month of december for the two players alone...

Damian Lilliard: 18.2 PPG, 3.4 REB, 6.9 Asst on 40% from the field...

Kemba Walker: 19.8 PPG, 2.8 REB, 6.1 Asst, 1.7 Stl on 46% from the field.

And to put those numbers in to even more perspective? Lilliard averaged 40 mins a game during the month compared to Walker's 35... And was still inferior.


So to some it all simply. Look at what the players have done so far and think about what they'd do on opposite teams. How would Damian Lilliard play with a big man drapped on to his shoulder every time down court and no help on the defensive end. Then think about how Walker would be with Lamarcus Aldridge drawing a man out to play his face up game and J.J. Hickson shutting off drives to the inside...

Because as I see it:

What Lilliard would proably be averaging the the Bobcats.

15.8 PPG, 2 REB, 5 Ast, on 40 PCT shooting.


What Walker would be averaging on the Trail Blazers.

20 PPG, 4 REB, 8 AST, 2.5 STL, on 45 PCT shooting.

Yeah. I'd very much like to see this switch in line-ups.

Maybe now you can see why I wanted Cousins so bad. Just him being on the court would have made a huge difference.
_________________
PSN: Suavesky

RIP Robin Williams
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Supersuavesky


Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 28995
Location: Anywhere But Here
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are there any questions?
_________________
PSN: Suavesky

RIP Robin Williams
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BBando


Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 7531
Location: Tampa Bay
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supersuavesky wrote:
Are there any questions?

_________________
Adopt-A-Buc Mason Foster

garbage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Supersuavesky


Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 28995
Location: Anywhere But Here
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BBando wrote:
Supersuavesky wrote:
Are there any questions?
It wasn't for you. Wink
_________________
PSN: Suavesky

RIP Robin Williams
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
resilient


Joined: 07 Jan 2013
Posts: 1164
Location: where old school ballers go to die
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supersuavesky wrote:
Why Kemba Walker is a better player then Damian Lilliard


1.) Efficiency:

Take a look at the PER right now. Even if you don't necessary believe in it as a solid player tool or simply don't like it period you can't deny the fact that it is a strong measure of how a player competes from a game to game basis. For those of you who don't know this stat does a good job of showing how a player preforms on both offense and defense.

As of right now the current PER for the two players:

Lilliard: 16.48

Walker: 18.70

That's a noticeable disparity. To put it even further in to perspective the highest Lilliard's PER has been since the first week or so of the season is around the range of 18.90 give or take a bit. Kemba Walker mid way through december? At one point it was at a solid 20.73. During that stretch and up until last week Walker averaged more points, rebounds, steals, and blocks than Lilliard.

That's a pretty big stretch considering the so called better players was inferior in every category but one up until that point.

But knowing you all we'll have to take this a bit further won't we?

Lilliard is listed at 6-3 and 195 pounds. Walker is listed at 6-1 and 180 pounds. That's a 2 inch and near twenty pound difference in between them. And yet Lilliard is at marginally at best stronger in TS% then the notably undersized Walker.

Defensive statistics are much in the same trend with Walker holding a narrow lead despite Lilliard being two inches taller. In addition Walker is, ironically one of the best at taking charges despite his small size. In terms of steals Walker is currently in a somewhat of a slump falling from his place at fourth in the entire league and over 2 a game (Which I expect to go back up) down to seventh.... Lillard isn't even in the top fifty at less then a full every three games.

Which brings us to the part and Lilliard's one and true argument.

2.) Scoring:

Points are fun. And fans like them. It's why were having this debate in the first place. People see Lillard putting up points and think much of it.

As I stated before in the last week Kemba is in a five game slump in terms of points... Which actually says a ton about how efficient he is considering he's averaging over 45 percent from the field in this current stretch. Coming in to the month he was at 18.8 and up until last SAT was at where Lillard is right now at 18.1. Walker came in then at number 13 in scoring per game for all NBA players.

Current shooting percentage for the year stands at this.

Lilliard: .420%

Walker: .429%

Close? Certainly but there is a noticeable difference. This in fact is a big sticking point on to why Walker is the superior player. After all what good is a scoring guard who can barely score?

To put in to more context Walker finished the month of December around .414 or so on the season while Lillard hovered around the high twenties. Since then Walker has gotten much better while Lilliard has gotten worse.

Which pulls up in to so many different directions that I won't bother to cover them all but I'll sum it up in one all important word: Spacing.

You see both Walker and Lilliard are supbar at best in three point shooting. That's to be expected by young NBA player though. What isn't alright is the how there doing it. Currently Lilliard is averaging less then a full point a game... While averaging over three more 3 point attempts a contest.

Now I can't tell you for a fact because I don't see Portland nearly as much as their fans do, and I know they don't see us, but I know for Walker at least he doesn't really like to take the three ball. In fact the Bobcats are near the bottom in both 3 pointers attempted and made. It's maddeing to me. I can't count on my hands how many games within the last month alone where an opposing team finished with more three pointers made then we've even attempted.

As for Walker this goes back in to that magical thing called spacing. You see for the Bobcats' it's, at best, god awful.

This is my biggest point for why Walker is a better overall player.

3.) The Effect Of Surronding talent:

The Bobcats front court is F'ing terrible. Like really bad. Like really, really really, really bad. I sometimes joke it's the worst ever... It's making me sad because it's pretty close to the truth.

To sum up how bad the players from positions 3-5 are I'll just give you the PER's again.

Brendan Haywood: 9.27. Avg: 4 PPG, 5 REB, .8 BLK. Shooting 47%
DeSanga Diop: 7.51. I won't go in to it. That bad. Less then a point per game.

Bismack Biyombo: 10.17. Avg: 5 PPG, 7 REB, 1.6 BLK. Shooting 45%. If you think that's kinda solid... In the last ten he's shooting an even 40 from the field.

Jeff Adrian: 11.38. Avg: 3 PPG 4 REB. 46%

Byron Mullens: 12.45 Avg: 12 PPG 8 REB. Shooting 37% from the field. PS, I actually miss this guy.

Tyrus Thomas. PER is 8.66. I don't wanna post the rest... It's like 31% from the field.

Hakeem Warrick: He's been our best big... at 11.72 for PER and 40 from the field. Average less then four rebounds a game.

Jeff Taylor: 9.71. Avg: 7 PPG, 2 REB. 41% FG.

MKG: 16.11. AVG 11 PPG, 6 REB. At 48% I'm made he doesn't chuck it up more.

So that's our front court. Mix-and-Match it however you want. It still sucks.

I never really truly realized how much a front court mattered to the guards until this year. It's a lot. A whole lot. And considering how offense is pick and roll everything it's even worse.

What does Lilliard work with?

Glad you asked.

J.J. Hickson: PER 20.04. Avg: 12 PPG, 11 REB, 1 BLK, shooting at 54 FG

Lamarcus Aldridge(Aka one of the best bigs in the world): PER is 19.47. Averaging 21 PPG, 9 REB, and 1 BLK on 46% from the field. This is a down year for him. A down year.

So back to that spacing thing. Because that's all I need. I could go on about how great Batum is this season or how Weasley Matthews is having a career year from three point land but I won't. I think I've made my point.

Considering the horrible mess that is the Bobcats' half court sets I'd like for you to image what it's like to be Kemba Walker and Damian Lilliard.

I'm Lilliard. Pick and roll. The big reaches out to me.... Take that jumper Lamarcus. Or you know what, I'll just toss it out to Batum for an open three.

Kemba Walker.... Oh.... The Center is driving me to the sideline. Here Biyombo just hold- Never mind, get back on D. Maybe next time I'll pass it to MKG, at least he'll pretend to jab step with that six foot cushion there giving him instead of just outright dropping it.

You don't understand that I am literally not overracting when I say that no matter what team we play Kemba Walker is literally double teamed when ever the ball touches his hands. Without fail. If were lucky Ben Gordon will be out there to dribble around until he turns it over. Or maybe Sessions will pass it to back to Kemba with only five on the shoot clock. That's where the majority of his threes come from. Desperation.

That's why what Walker has done this year is so much more impressive. Because he's literally playing with complete scrubs. He's Charlotte's only offense. What happens when he goes out of the game for five minutes? A 10-0 Scoring run. That's what frustrates me about MKG. The number 2 overall pick should want to to more then stand around and pretend to drive. Walker needs help.


The fact that Kemba Walker has manged as well as he has with what little he works with is simply freaking amazing. When he drives to the bakset he knows that 6 times out of ten he's going to get thrown to the ground or his shoot is going to get blocked. He knows that. There is no spacing to pull the bigs away. No one is afraid of Brendan Haywood and and Bismack Biyombo. Hell, they want Mullens to chuck up another three.

Walker is trying to pull of the amazing every night. I honestly think sometimes that this team is worse then last years.

Which brings me to the third part:

3.) Assist:

Again, this slump Walker is on? Yeah, really misleading. You see his PPG have dropped by one because he's dropped his shoot attempts by three. he's not shooting the ball half as much. In fact he's passing it more.... And still struggling to get to at least six assist a game.

Did everyone see how bad those FG percentage are? Take in to account I didn't put up the other guards. That's even worse. The second leading scorer right now is Ramon Sessions... He's shooting less then 40 from the field.

Walker was around 6.2 Asst per game this time last week. That's freaking amazing. 6 per game with this crap? That's up there with turning water to wine and a rabbit out of a hat. Considering no one can shoot the ball you have to understand he is practically force feeding them these assist. Bismack Biyombo's scoring games come off of how well his hands are working that particular night aka can I catch that Walker pass.

It baffles me. Blows my mind how someone who did nothing but score the ball in college can suddenly pass so well. Walker does wrap arounds. He does look aways. He does no looks and spinning dishes.... You don't see half of them, because people suck to much to put the ball in the metal circle.

This is arguably the biggest reason why Walker is better. Because he's making his teammates better. They've all gotten this far thanks to him. We're dead last in asst per game as a team even though Walker is averaging half a dozen. That's ridiculous.

That's another reason why Lilliard's season isn't better. He has LAMARCUS ALDRIGE AS HIS PICK MAN... Aldridge. That's four guaranteed assist a game right there. Kemba Walker? BISMACK BIYOMBO....

How fair is that? Never mind the fact that Matthews has been knocking down threes like crazy or that J.J. Hickson is shooting darn near sixty percent from the field. Let's take away Batum for a bit and see how many assist Lilliard would get with Luke Babbitt and Victor Claver every night. And while it's done let's insert Barton in for Matthews for a week.

Speaking of crappy teammates, does anyone wanna ask El Ramster how bad the rest of the Bobcats are?

Kemba screwed up big time... Only had one assist against the Pacers tuesday... Probably because as a whole the team shot 34 percent from the field....

With Walker going 6-9 So that means the Bobcats as a whole without him that night would have been oh something around the lines of...

19 of 65... Oh and the Pacers out rebounded us 60 to 31.


Look at the month of december for the two players alone...

Damian Lilliard: 18.2 PPG, 3.4 REB, 6.9 Asst on 40% from the field...

Kemba Walker: 19.8 PPG, 2.8 REB, 6.1 Asst, 1.7 Stl on 46% from the field.

And to put those numbers in to even more perspective? Lilliard averaged 40 mins a game during the month compared to Walker's 35... And was still inferior.


So to some it all simply. Look at what the players have done so far and think about what they'd do on opposite teams. How would Damian Lilliard play with a big man drapped on to his shoulder every time down court and no help on the defensive end. Then think about how Walker would be with Lamarcus Aldridge drawing a man out to play his face up game and J.J. Hickson shutting off drives to the inside...

Because as I see it:

What Lilliard would proably be averaging the the Bobcats.

15.8 PPG, 2 REB, 5 Ast, on 40 PCT shooting.


What Walker would be averaging on the Trail Blazers.

20 PPG, 4 REB, 8 AST, 2.5 STL, on 45 PCT shooting.

Yeah. I'd very much like to see this switch in line-ups.

Maybe now you can see why I wanted Cousins so bad. Just him being on the court would have made a huge difference.


WOW...Early post of the year candidate...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
as11osu


Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 15268
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love it when people that don't know anything about basketball talk about basketball.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Bleedin_Green36


Joined: 25 Feb 2008
Posts: 13061
Location: Largo, FL
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as11osu wrote:
I love it when people that don't know anything about basketball talk about basketball.


Fightin Words!!
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Supersuavesky


Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 28995
Location: Anywhere But Here
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as11osu wrote:
I love it when people that don't know anything about basketball talk about basketball.
So says you of all people? Ironic.

To simplify for you.

Walker is just as if not more efficient.

Walker is a better passer.

Walker is a better defender.

Walker is a better leader.

Lilliard needs the Trail Blazers more the they need him.


The Bobcats, apart from Walker, really really suck.
_________________
PSN: Suavesky

RIP Robin Williams
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
canucks9314


Joined: 31 Dec 2009
Posts: 1049
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supersuavesky wrote:
Why Kemba Walker is a better player then Damian Lilliard


1.) Efficiency:

Take a look at the PER right now. Even if you don't necessary believe in it as a solid player tool or simply don't like it period you can't deny the fact that it is a strong measure of how a player competes from a game to game basis. For those of you who don't know this stat does a good job of showing how a player preforms on both offense and defense.

As of right now the current PER for the two players:

Lilliard: 16.48

Walker: 18.70

That's a noticeable disparity. To put it even further in to perspective the highest Lilliard's PER has been since the first week or so of the season is around the range of 18.90 give or take a bit. Kemba Walker mid way through december? At one point it was at a solid 20.73. During that stretch and up until last week Walker averaged more points, rebounds, steals, and blocks than Lilliard.

That's a pretty big stretch considering the so called better players was inferior in every category but one up until that point.

But knowing you all we'll have to take this a bit further won't we?

Lilliard is listed at 6-3 and 195 pounds. Walker is listed at 6-1 and 180 pounds. That's a 2 inch and near twenty pound difference in between them. And yet Lilliard is at marginally at best stronger in TS% then the notably undersized Walker.

Defensive statistics are much in the same trend with Walker holding a narrow lead despite Lilliard being two inches taller. In addition Walker is, ironically one of the best at taking charges despite his small size. In terms of steals Walker is currently in a somewhat of a slump falling from his place at fourth in the entire league and over 2 a game (Which I expect to go back up) down to seventh.... Lillard isn't even in the top fifty at less then a full every three games.

Which brings us to the part and Lilliard's one and true argument.

2.) Scoring:

Points are fun. And fans like them. It's why were having this debate in the first place. People see Lillard putting up points and think much of it.

As I stated before in the last week Kemba is in a five game slump in terms of points... Which actually says a ton about how efficient he is considering he's averaging over 45 percent from the field in this current stretch. Coming in to the month he was at 18.8 and up until last SAT was at where Lillard is right now at 18.1. Walker came in then at number 13 in scoring per game for all NBA players.

Current shooting percentage for the year stands at this.

Lilliard: .420%

Walker: .429%

Close? Certainly but there is a noticeable difference. This in fact is a big sticking point on to why Walker is the superior player. After all what good is a scoring guard who can barely score?

To put in to more context Walker finished the month of December around .414 or so on the season while Lillard hovered around the high twenties. Since then Walker has gotten much better while Lilliard has gotten worse.

Which pulls up in to so many different directions that I won't bother to cover them all but I'll sum it up in one all important word: Spacing.

You see both Walker and Lilliard are supbar at best in three point shooting. That's to be expected by young NBA player though. What isn't alright is the how there doing it. Currently Lilliard is averaging less then a full point a game... While averaging over three more 3 point attempts a contest.

Now I can't tell you for a fact because I don't see Portland nearly as much as their fans do, and I know they don't see us, but I know for Walker at least he doesn't really like to take the three ball. In fact the Bobcats are near the bottom in both 3 pointers attempted and made. It's maddeing to me. I can't count on my hands how many games within the last month alone where an opposing team finished with more three pointers made then we've even attempted.

As for Walker this goes back in to that magical thing called spacing. You see for the Bobcats' it's, at best, god awful.

This is my biggest point for why Walker is a better overall player.

3.) The Effect Of Surronding talent:

The Bobcats front court is F'ing terrible. Like really bad. Like really, really really, really bad. I sometimes joke it's the worst ever... It's making me sad because it's pretty close to the truth.

To sum up how bad the players from positions 3-5 are I'll just give you the PER's again.

Brendan Haywood: 9.27. Avg: 4 PPG, 5 REB, .8 BLK. Shooting 47%
DeSanga Diop: 7.51. I won't go in to it. That bad. Less then a point per game.

Bismack Biyombo: 10.17. Avg: 5 PPG, 7 REB, 1.6 BLK. Shooting 45%. If you think that's kinda solid... In the last ten he's shooting an even 40 from the field.

Jeff Adrian: 11.38. Avg: 3 PPG 4 REB. 46%

Byron Mullens: 12.45 Avg: 12 PPG 8 REB. Shooting 37% from the field. PS, I actually miss this guy.

Tyrus Thomas. PER is 8.66. I don't wanna post the rest... It's like 31% from the field.

Hakeem Warrick: He's been our best big... at 11.72 for PER and 40 from the field. Average less then four rebounds a game.

Jeff Taylor: 9.71. Avg: 7 PPG, 2 REB. 41% FG.

MKG: 16.11. AVG 11 PPG, 6 REB. At 48% I'm made he doesn't chuck it up more.

So that's our front court. Mix-and-Match it however you want. It still sucks.

I never really truly realized how much a front court mattered to the guards until this year. It's a lot. A whole lot. And considering how offense is pick and roll everything it's even worse.

What does Lilliard work with?

Glad you asked.

J.J. Hickson: PER 20.04. Avg: 12 PPG, 11 REB, 1 BLK, shooting at 54 FG

Lamarcus Aldridge(Aka one of the best bigs in the world): PER is 19.47. Averaging 21 PPG, 9 REB, and 1 BLK on 46% from the field. This is a down year for him. A down year.

So back to that spacing thing. Because that's all I need. I could go on about how great Batum is this season or how Weasley Matthews is having a career year from three point land but I won't. I think I've made my point.

Considering the horrible mess that is the Bobcats' half court sets I'd like for you to image what it's like to be Kemba Walker and Damian Lilliard.

I'm Lilliard. Pick and roll. The big reaches out to me.... Take that jumper Lamarcus. Or you know what, I'll just toss it out to Batum for an open three.

Kemba Walker.... Oh.... The Center is driving me to the sideline. Here Biyombo just hold- Never mind, get back on D. Maybe next time I'll pass it to MKG, at least he'll pretend to jab step with that six foot cushion there giving him instead of just outright dropping it.

You don't understand that I am literally not overracting when I say that no matter what team we play Kemba Walker is literally double teamed when ever the ball touches his hands. Without fail. If were lucky Ben Gordon will be out there to dribble around until he turns it over. Or maybe Sessions will pass it to back to Kemba with only five on the shoot clock. That's where the majority of his threes come from. Desperation.

That's why what Walker has done this year is so much more impressive. Because he's literally playing with complete scrubs. He's Charlotte's only offense. What happens when he goes out of the game for five minutes? A 10-0 Scoring run. That's what frustrates me about MKG. The number 2 overall pick should want to to more then stand around and pretend to drive. Walker needs help.


The fact that Kemba Walker has manged as well as he has with what little he works with is simply freaking amazing. When he drives to the bakset he knows that 6 times out of ten he's going to get thrown to the ground or his shoot is going to get blocked. He knows that. There is no spacing to pull the bigs away. No one is afraid of Brendan Haywood and and Bismack Biyombo. Hell, they want Mullens to chuck up another three.

Walker is trying to pull of the amazing every night. I honestly think sometimes that this team is worse then last years.

Which brings me to the third part:

3.) Assist:

Again, this slump Walker is on? Yeah, really misleading. You see his PPG have dropped by one because he's dropped his shoot attempts by three. he's not shooting the ball half as much. In fact he's passing it more.... And still struggling to get to at least six assist a game.

Did everyone see how bad those FG percentage are? Take in to account I didn't put up the other guards. That's even worse. The second leading scorer right now is Ramon Sessions... He's shooting less then 40 from the field.

Walker was around 6.2 Asst per game this time last week. That's freaking amazing. 6 per game with this crap? That's up there with turning water to wine and a rabbit out of a hat. Considering no one can shoot the ball you have to understand he is practically force feeding them these assist. Bismack Biyombo's scoring games come off of how well his hands are working that particular night aka can I catch that Walker pass.

It baffles me. Blows my mind how someone who did nothing but score the ball in college can suddenly pass so well. Walker does wrap arounds. He does look aways. He does no looks and spinning dishes.... You don't see half of them, because people suck to much to put the ball in the metal circle.

This is arguably the biggest reason why Walker is better. Because he's making his teammates better. They've all gotten this far thanks to him. We're dead last in asst per game as a team even though Walker is averaging half a dozen. That's ridiculous.

That's another reason why Lilliard's season isn't better. He has LAMARCUS ALDRIGE AS HIS PICK MAN... Aldridge. That's four guaranteed assist a game right there. Kemba Walker? BISMACK BIYOMBO....

How fair is that? Never mind the fact that Matthews has been knocking down threes like crazy or that J.J. Hickson is shooting darn near sixty percent from the field. Let's take away Batum for a bit and see how many assist Lilliard would get with Luke Babbitt and Victor Claver every night. And while it's done let's insert Barton in for Matthews for a week.

Speaking of crappy teammates, does anyone wanna ask El Ramster how bad the rest of the Bobcats are?

Kemba screwed up big time... Only had one assist against the Pacers tuesday... Probably because as a whole the team shot 34 percent from the field....

With Walker going 6-9 So that means the Bobcats as a whole without him that night would have been oh something around the lines of...

19 of 65... Oh and the Pacers out rebounded us 60 to 31.


Look at the month of december for the two players alone...

Damian Lilliard: 18.2 PPG, 3.4 REB, 6.9 Asst on 40% from the field...

Kemba Walker: 19.8 PPG, 2.8 REB, 6.1 Asst, 1.7 Stl on 46% from the field.

And to put those numbers in to even more perspective? Lilliard averaged 40 mins a game during the month compared to Walker's 35... And was still inferior.


So to some it all simply. Look at what the players have done so far and think about what they'd do on opposite teams. How would Damian Lilliard play with a big man drapped on to his shoulder every time down court and no help on the defensive end. Then think about how Walker would be with Lamarcus Aldridge drawing a man out to play his face up game and J.J. Hickson shutting off drives to the inside...

Because as I see it:

What Lilliard would proably be averaging the the Bobcats.

15.8 PPG, 2 REB, 5 Ast, on 40 PCT shooting.


What Walker would be averaging on the Trail Blazers.

20 PPG, 4 REB, 8 AST, 2.5 STL, on 45 PCT shooting.

Yeah. I'd very much like to see this switch in line-ups.

Maybe now you can see why I wanted Cousins so bad. Just him being on the court would have made a huge difference.


1. PER is a made up stat like passer rating, you wouldn't use that As a definitive way of saying which player is better. Plus this Kemba's second year in the league Lillard's first.

2. TS% > FG%

3. Walker is the offensive focus of the Bobcats because they are so bad, where as Lillard is on a playoff team and not the only good player.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Supersuavesky


Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 28995
Location: Anywhere But Here
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1.) Good thing it works in this instant.

2.) I agree. Which again makes Kemba's so much more impressive.

3.) Which is exactly my point... And negates that attempted argument becaus they shoot roughly the same number of shots with Lillard causally hoisting more three attempts.
_________________
PSN: Suavesky

RIP Robin Williams
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
as11osu


Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 15268
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damian Lillard = 59%, 39%, 33%, 44%, 36%, 84%, 50%, 55%
Kemba Walker = 56%, 28%, 32%, 46%, 33%, 78%, 47%, 51%

(At Rim, 3-9 feet, 10-15 feet, 16-23 feet, 3 pointers, free throw line, eFG%, TS% )

Lillard shoots better from everywhere on the floor except the worst place to take shots (just inside the 3 line).

Blazers w/ Lillard = +0.8 per 48 minutes
Blazers w/o Lillard = -12.3 per 48 minutes

The Blazers are 13 points better with Lillard than without him.

Bobcats w/ Walker = -6.7 per 48 minutes
Bobcats w/o Walker = -11.6 per 48 minutes

The Bobcats are 6 points better with Walker than without him.

So the Blazers are both much better with Lillard on the court than the Bobcats with Walker but when Lillard ISN'T on the court the Blazers are worse than the Bobcats without Walker.

Clutch stats

Lillard eFG% = 50%
Walker eFG% = 29%

The idea that Walker is getting double teamed anymore than Lillard is crazy. Lillard is the only player on the Blazer team that can dribble the ball and create for themselves or for others. That's the whole reason people are so impressed with Lillard. He's come straight from a nowhere college and now is the only creator on a potential western conference playoff team. Aldridge has been vastly worse than he was last year and the team has no depth to speak of and yet the Blazers are a much better team overall.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
l3lind golfer


Most Valuable Poster (6th Ballot)

Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 34559
Location: California
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supersuavesky wrote:
Lilliard needs the Trail Blazers more the they need him.
Damian Lillard needs the Blazers more than they need him? You're a joke. That statement just proves you're willing to spew any kind of nonsense to make your point.
_________________
Mossburg wrote:
HootersPatrol wrote:
This your first year of watching football?


Clearly. I joined this site in 2005 to talk movies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
l3lind golfer


Most Valuable Poster (6th Ballot)

Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 34559
Location: California
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as11osu wrote:
Damian Lillard = 59%, 39%, 33%, 44%, 36%, 84%, 50%, 55%
Kemba Walker = 56%, 28%, 32%, 46%, 33%, 78%, 47%, 51%

(At Rim, 3-9 feet, 10-15 feet, 16-23 feet, 3 pointers, free throw line, eFG%, TS% )

Lillard shoots better from everywhere on the floor except the worst place to take shots (just inside the 3 line).

Blazers w/ Lillard = +0.8 per 48 minutes
Blazers w/o Lillard = -12.3 per 48 minutes

The Blazers are 13 points better with Lillard than without him.

Bobcats w/ Walker = -6.7 per 48 minutes
Bobcats w/o Walker = -11.6 per 48 minutes

The Bobcats are 6 points better with Walker than without him.

So the Blazers are both much better with Lillard on the court than the Bobcats with Walker but when Lillard ISN'T on the court the Blazers are worse than the Bobcats without Walker.

Clutch stats

Lillard eFG% = 50%
Walker eFG% = 29%

The idea that Walker is getting double teamed anymore than Lillard is crazy. Lillard is the only player on the Blazer team that can dribble the ball and create for themselves or for others. That's the whole reason people are so impressed with Lillard. He's come straight from a nowhere college and now is the only creator on a potential western conference playoff team. Aldridge has been vastly worse than he was last year and the team has no depth to speak of and yet the Blazers are a much better team overall.
Absolutely nonsense. The Blazers don't need Damian Lillard, Damian Lillard needs the Blazers! BTW, all those facts you stated above are false, you must have dreamt all that stuff up.
_________________
Mossburg wrote:
HootersPatrol wrote:
This your first year of watching football?


Clearly. I joined this site in 2005 to talk movies.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Basketball All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 4 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group