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Dropkick_pride
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| nugpimpen wrote: | | Like Candy said, if JMJ or Robertston start at OLB, we are in serious trouble. |
Robertson, yes same as in a 43.
JMJ most likely. Think he may be good inside, but worry about I'm on the edge where he has less experience. Many think he will be starting ILB next to DQ.
Good thing Gocong is on roster.
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bulldog
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Dropkick_pride wrote: | | Gocong easily has the size, played outside in a 43 for the eagles and the browns, played 34 in Mangini/Ryan 34, and in colege was a pass rushing specialist at DE. |
Everything you say here is true, but you leave out one big part.
Since coming into the NFL, he's played for two teams and three HC's, and not one of them considered him a pass rushing specialist.
I have to believe that they know what they are doing over your opinion of what he may be able to do...
Gocong is a very good Buck/ Sam LB. I think JMJ can grow into this role as well.
The closest things we have to OLB on the roster right now is Sheard, Emmanuel Stephens, and Auston English... I don't think anyone else should be considered for OLB.
*btw, I'm not disputing about the debate, just this one part. I think OLB, FS, and CB are all large needs and need to be addressed one way or another.
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Ether
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 1466
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Dropkick_pride wrote: | | Ether wrote: | | OLB is a hole if gocong doesnt play there while #2 CB is a massive hole even if we bring Sheldon Brown back. |
FIFY |
Sheldon Brown has been much better than Gocong, it's just a matter of age that leads you to say that. |
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Dropkick_pride
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| bulldog wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | | Gocong easily has the size, played outside in a 43 for the eagles and the browns, played 34 in Mangini/Ryan 34, and in colege was a pass rushing specialist at DE. |
Everything you say here is true, but you leave out one big part.
Since coming into the NFL, he's played for two teams and three HC's, and not one of them considered him a pass rushing specialist.
I have to believe that they know what they are doing over your opinion of what he may be able to do...
Gocong is a very good Buck/ Sam LB. I think JMJ can grow into this role as well.
The closest things we have to OLB on the roster right now is Sheard, Emmanuel Stephens, and Auston English... I don't think anyone else should be considered for OLB.
*btw, I'm not disputing about the debate, just this one part. I think OLB, FS, and CB are all large needs and need to be addressed one way or another. |
He is not big enough to play 43 de. Two of those coaches/ teams played 43. However, Both of those used him as OLB.
The 3rd used a 34, but had man crushes on vets and gave those players priority on positions leaving Gocong to battle for a starting position at what was left.... ILB.
However, the one gm that every browns fan has ranted and raved about how great he was made multiple statements that he brought Gocong to Cleveland to play OLB and be a pass rusher....
Sheard, who I like has only ever played DE with his hand in the dirt, or in a 2 point stance... That's not a complete 34 OLB....
English I truly believe would have been a good one if the injuries did not eat him up... Thought he was great in college, but the disaster you could see coming.
Don't forget Adams...
None of the LBs are perfect fits... It going to take a little creativity, and looking at the players with broader perspectives.
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Dropkick_pride
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Ether wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | | Ether wrote: | | OLB is a hole if gocong doesnt play there while #2 CB is a massive hole even if we bring Sheldon Brown back. |
FIFY |
Sheldon Brown has been much better than Gocong, it's just a matter of age that leads you to say that. |
Well then, when the nfl becomes the Peter Pan league your statement will be more viable.
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bulldog
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 4376
Location: Salem
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Dropkick_pride wrote: | | bulldog wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | | Gocong easily has the size, played outside in a 43 for the eagles and the browns, played 34 in Mangini/Ryan 34, and in colege was a pass rushing specialist at DE. |
Everything you say here is true, but you leave out one big part.
Since coming into the NFL, he's played for two teams and three HC's, and not one of them considered him a pass rushing specialist.
I have to believe that they know what they are doing over your opinion of what he may be able to do...
Gocong is a very good Buck/ Sam LB. I think JMJ can grow into this role as well.
The closest things we have to OLB on the roster right now is Sheard, Emmanuel Stephens, and Auston English... I don't think anyone else should be considered for OLB.
*btw, I'm not disputing about the debate, just this one part. I think OLB, FS, and CB are all large needs and need to be addressed one way or another. |
He is not big enough to play 43 de. Two of those coaches/ teams played 43. However, Both of those used him as OLB.
The 3rd used a 34, but had man crushes on vets and gave those players priority on positions leaving Gocong to battle for a starting position at what was left.... ILB.
However, the one gm that every browns fan has ranted and raved about how great he was made multiple statements that he brought Gocong to Cleveland to play OLB and be a pass rusher....
Sheard, who I like has only ever played DE with his hand in the dirt, or in a 2 point stance... That's not a complete 34 OLB....
English I truly believe would have been a good one if the injuries did not eat him up... Thought he was great in college, but the disaster you could see coming.
Don't forget Adams...
None of the LBs are perfect fits... It going to take a little creativity, and looking at the players with broader perspectives. |
Yes, he's played OLB, but only in a 43. Not once was he ever considered a pass rushing specialist.
And he was a VET in the league when playing in a 34. That argument has no base. When Gocong first started playing ILB in the 34, Trusnik and Bowens were starters at OLB, not very stiff competition. Being a VET had nothing to do with it. It was a simple fact that Gocong was better at ILB in a 34.
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Dropkick_pride
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| bulldog wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | | bulldog wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | | Gocong easily has the size, played outside in a 43 for the eagles and the browns, played 34 in Mangini/Ryan 34, and in colege was a pass rushing specialist at DE. |
Everything you say here is true, but you leave out one big part.
Since coming into the NFL, he's played for two teams and three HC's, and not one of them considered him a pass rushing specialist.
I have to believe that they know what they are doing over your opinion of what he may be able to do...
Gocong is a very good Buck/ Sam LB. I think JMJ can grow into this role as well.
The closest things we have to OLB on the roster right now is Sheard, Emmanuel Stephens, and Auston English... I don't think anyone else should be considered for OLB.
*btw, I'm not disputing about the debate, just this one part. I think OLB, FS, and CB are all large needs and need to be addressed one way or another. |
He is not big enough to play 43 de. Two of those coaches/ teams played 43. However, Both of those used him as OLB.
The 3rd used a 34, but had man crushes on vets and gave those players priority on positions leaving Gocong to battle for a starting position at what was left.... ILB.
However, the one gm that every browns fan has ranted and raved about how great he was made multiple statements that he brought Gocong to Cleveland to play OLB and be a pass rusher....
Sheard, who I like has only ever played DE with his hand in the dirt, or in a 2 point stance... That's not a complete 34 OLB....
English I truly believe would have been a good one if the injuries did not eat him up... Thought he was great in college, but the disaster you could see coming.
Don't forget Adams...
None of the LBs are perfect fits... It going to take a little creativity, and looking at the players with broader perspectives. |
Yes, he's played OLB, but only in a 43. Not once was he ever considered a pass rushing specialist.
And he was a VET in the league when playing in a 34. That argument has no base. When Gocong first started playing ILB in the 34, Trusnik and Bowens were starters at OLB, not very stiff competition. Being a VET had nothing to do with it. It was a simple fact that Gocong was better at ILB in a 34. |
He was pass rush specialist in college, projected as one in the nfl, and why heckert brought him to Cleveland.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/dneagles/DeSean_It_was_time_for_a_change.html
Mangini/Ryan had Roth and Fujita locked into the starting OLB roles and Gocong had to compete of a starting role at ILB... OLBs were set first. Roth and Fujita.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/08/cleveland_browns_rookies_are_g.html
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bulldog
Joined: 18 Nov 2008
Posts: 4376
Location: Salem
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Dropkick_pride wrote: | | bulldog wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | | bulldog wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | | Gocong easily has the size, played outside in a 43 for the eagles and the browns, played 34 in Mangini/Ryan 34, and in colege was a pass rushing specialist at DE. |
Everything you say here is true, but you leave out one big part.
Since coming into the NFL, he's played for two teams and three HC's, and not one of them considered him a pass rushing specialist.
I have to believe that they know what they are doing over your opinion of what he may be able to do...
Gocong is a very good Buck/ Sam LB. I think JMJ can grow into this role as well.
The closest things we have to OLB on the roster right now is Sheard, Emmanuel Stephens, and Auston English... I don't think anyone else should be considered for OLB.
*btw, I'm not disputing about the debate, just this one part. I think OLB, FS, and CB are all large needs and need to be addressed one way or another. |
He is not big enough to play 43 de. Two of those coaches/ teams played 43. However, Both of those used him as OLB.
The 3rd used a 34, but had man crushes on vets and gave those players priority on positions leaving Gocong to battle for a starting position at what was left.... ILB.
However, the one gm that every browns fan has ranted and raved about how great he was made multiple statements that he brought Gocong to Cleveland to play OLB and be a pass rusher....
Sheard, who I like has only ever played DE with his hand in the dirt, or in a 2 point stance... That's not a complete 34 OLB....
English I truly believe would have been a good one if the injuries did not eat him up... Thought he was great in college, but the disaster you could see coming.
Don't forget Adams...
None of the LBs are perfect fits... It going to take a little creativity, and looking at the players with broader perspectives. |
Yes, he's played OLB, but only in a 43. Not once was he ever considered a pass rushing specialist.
And he was a VET in the league when playing in a 34. That argument has no base. When Gocong first started playing ILB in the 34, Trusnik and Bowens were starters at OLB, not very stiff competition. Being a VET had nothing to do with it. It was a simple fact that Gocong was better at ILB in a 34. |
He was pass rush specialist in college, projected as one in the nfl, and why heckert brought him to Cleveland.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/dneagles/DeSean_It_was_time_for_a_change.html
Mangini/Ryan had Roth and Fujita locked into the starting OLB roles and Gocong had to compete of a starting role at ILB... OLBs were set first. Roth and Fujita.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/08/cleveland_browns_rookies_are_g.html |
drop the college thing. That was college, who cares. This is the NFL. Not everything translate to the NFL. Obviously 3 HCs agree.
Roth was picked up midseason after being cut by Miami. Didn't compete with him at all.
I fall into the category of people that though Gocong would be a OLB for Mangini was he was traded for. But he wasn't put there. Obviously theres a reason. Maybe the new staff thinks he can, but if they put him back at ILB, then that would make 4 HC's that don't think he can rush the passer from the outside.
and he was "projected" by the media and draft sites, who are wrong all the time. The NFL thinks otherwise about Gocong.
and Heckert said Gocong can play any spot if i remember correctly.
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Dropkick_pride
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 9442
Location: C-bus
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| bulldog wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | | bulldog wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | | bulldog wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | | Gocong easily has the size, played outside in a 43 for the eagles and the browns, played 34 in Mangini/Ryan 34, and in colege was a pass rushing specialist at DE. |
Everything you say here is true, but you leave out one big part.
Since coming into the NFL, he's played for two teams and three HC's, and not one of them considered him a pass rushing specialist.
I have to believe that they know what they are doing over your opinion of what he may be able to do...
Gocong is a very good Buck/ Sam LB. I think JMJ can grow into this role as well.
The closest things we have to OLB on the roster right now is Sheard, Emmanuel Stephens, and Auston English... I don't think anyone else should be considered for OLB.
*btw, I'm not disputing about the debate, just this one part. I think OLB, FS, and CB are all large needs and need to be addressed one way or another. |
He is not big enough to play 43 de. Two of those coaches/ teams played 43. However, Both of those used him as OLB.
The 3rd used a 34, but had man crushes on vets and gave those players priority on positions leaving Gocong to battle for a starting position at what was left.... ILB.
However, the one gm that every browns fan has ranted and raved about how great he was made multiple statements that he brought Gocong to Cleveland to play OLB and be a pass rusher....
Sheard, who I like has only ever played DE with his hand in the dirt, or in a 2 point stance... That's not a complete 34 OLB....
English I truly believe would have been a good one if the injuries did not eat him up... Thought he was great in college, but the disaster you could see coming.
Don't forget Adams...
None of the LBs are perfect fits... It going to take a little creativity, and looking at the players with broader perspectives. |
Yes, he's played OLB, but only in a 43. Not once was he ever considered a pass rushing specialist.
And he was a VET in the league when playing in a 34. That argument has no base. When Gocong first started playing ILB in the 34, Trusnik and Bowens were starters at OLB, not very stiff competition. Being a VET had nothing to do with it. It was a simple fact that Gocong was better at ILB in a 34. |
He was pass rush specialist in college, projected as one in the nfl, and why heckert brought him to Cleveland.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/dneagles/DeSean_It_was_time_for_a_change.html
Mangini/Ryan had Roth and Fujita locked into the starting OLB roles and Gocong had to compete of a starting role at ILB... OLBs were set first. Roth and Fujita.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2010/08/cleveland_browns_rookies_are_g.html |
drop the college thing. That was college, who cares. This is the NFL. Not everything translate to the NFL. Obviously 3 HCs agree.
Roth was picked up midseason after being cut by Miami. Didn't compete with him at all.
I fall into the category of people that though Gocong would be a OLB for Mangini was he was traded for. But he wasn't put there. Obviously theres a reason. Maybe the new staff thinks he can, but if they put him back at ILB, then that would make 4 HC's that don't think he can rush the passer from the outside.
and he was "projected" by the media and draft sites, who are wrong all the time. The NFL thinks otherwise about Gocong.
and Heckert said Gocong can play any spot if i remember correctly. |
... College experience is important just like all experience is important. I would also think that heckert's very public opinion would be a valid basis for opinion in combination with the other information out there.
.... Article is dated aug 2, 2010. .
Gocong has plenty experience at various positions. People are so focused on where Gocong played for Mangini that they are omitting everything else. I've never said he will be great, but I have said keep open mind
AGain....
Im not nor have I ever said that Gocong is going to be some pass rushing monster for the Browns at OLB That so many fans are hung up on...
What I have said is that he has the size, experience, and skill set to potentially fill the vacant OLB depending upon how Horton sees the players fitting based on the available information that is out there...
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Last edited by Dropkick_pride on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Entropy
Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 1909
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Estonianzulu wrote: |
| Entropy wrote: |
2. Are you saying that if both players have equal standing in talent and execution, the pass rushing LB will have a greater impact on the game than the #2 CB? If so, in what way? |
Yes. Because not only does a pass rush better disrupt the flow of an offense (because rushing the passer impacts every pass play and not just passes directed towards the #2 WR) but also because a pass rusher fights a winning battle while a corner fights a losing battle.
Given enough time, a pass rusher will almost always find the QB. Given enough time, a WR will almost always beat a corner. Its the nature of the game, because of holding calls and the design of the game.
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The pass rush can come from many players, not just one. The aggregate pass rush of the best team in the NFL still allows the QB the attempt at least 450 passes (the Chiefs had the fewest attempts against them last two years with 464 in 2012 and 454 in 2011 ) in a given season.
In those minimum 450 pass attempts, how important do you think it was to have a good #2 CB?
What do you think a single pass rusher would need to do to impact a season as much as a good #2 CB? See, because the greatest pass rushing LB in the NFL won’t even impact the game enough to keep the #2 CB from having about 60 or more opportunities to give up a TD, big play, or first down, in a given season.
How good does the pass rush work when the #2 CB lines up 8-10 yards off the line of scrimmage?
How much does the pass rush matter when the #2 CB blows coverage, falls down while playing press, takes a bad angle on a tackle, goes for the INT and misses--leaving the receiver wide open, commits a holding or PI penalty since he was overmatched, consistently falls for double moves, has the faster WRs run by him, has the more physical WRs push him aside, needs a deep safety to ignore the run game and middle of the field to offset his shortcomings, or when he is really the #3 or #4 CB replacing the injured #2 guy.
Pass rushers are vital, but so are #2CBs. The both play every defensive snap.
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Ether
Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Posts: 1466
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Dropkick_pride wrote: | | Ether wrote: | | Dropkick_pride wrote: | | Ether wrote: | | OLB is a hole if gocong doesnt play there while #2 CB is a massive hole even if we bring Sheldon Brown back. |
FIFY |
Sheldon Brown has been much better than Gocong, it's just a matter of age that leads you to say that. |
Well then, when the nfl becomes the Peter Pan league your statement will be more viable. |
nah but really though outside of 1 game Sheldon Brown has been solid
outside of 1 game Gocong has been a complete nonfactor
I don't even see how they're comparable. |
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duke2056
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 7731
Location: Cleveland area
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Entropy wrote: | | Estonianzulu wrote: |
| Entropy wrote: |
2. Are you saying that if both players have equal standing in talent and execution, the pass rushing LB will have a greater impact on the game than the #2 CB? If so, in what way? |
Yes. Because not only does a pass rush better disrupt the flow of an offense (because rushing the passer impacts every pass play and not just passes directed towards the #2 WR) but also because a pass rusher fights a winning battle while a corner fights a losing battle.
Given enough time, a pass rusher will almost always find the QB. Given enough time, a WR will almost always beat a corner. Its the nature of the game, because of holding calls and the design of the game.
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The pass rush can come from many players, not just one. The aggregate pass rush of the best team in the NFL still allows the QB the attempt at least 450 passes (the Chiefs had the fewest attempts against them last two years with 464 in 2012 and 454 in 2011 ) in a given season.
In those minimum 450 pass attempts, how important do you think it was to have a good #2 CB?
What do you think a single pass rusher would need to do to impact a season as much as a good #2 CB? See, because the greatest pass rushing LB in the NFL won’t even impact the game enough to keep the #2 CB from having about 60 or more opportunities to give up a TD, big play, or first down, in a given season.
How good does the pass rush work when the #2 CB lines up 8-10 yards off the line of scrimmage?
How much does the pass rush matter when the #2 CB blows coverage, falls down while playing press, takes a bad angle on a tackle, goes for the INT and misses--leaving the receiver wide open, commits a holding or PI penalty since he was overmatched, consistently falls for double moves, has the faster WRs run by him, has the more physical WRs push him aside, needs a deep safety to ignore the run game and middle of the field to offset his shortcomings, or when he is really the #3 or #4 CB replacing the injured #2 guy.
Pass rushers are vital, but so are #2CBs. The both play every defensive snap. |
Dude, you are like obsessed with this number of pass attempts crap.
If my defense is going to go against 450 pass attempts for the year, I don't want a QB to think he has all day to throw. I want that QB to think he needs to get rid of the ball in less than 3 seconds or he will get his head taken off.
While sacks are important, just as important are hurries, hitting the QB, and forcing the offense to gameplan differently for your pass rush.
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Entropy
Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 1909
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| duke2056 wrote: | | Entropy wrote: | | Estonianzulu wrote: |
| Entropy wrote: |
2. Are you saying that if both players have equal standing in talent and execution, the pass rushing LB will have a greater impact on the game than the #2 CB? If so, in what way? |
Yes. Because not only does a pass rush better disrupt the flow of an offense (because rushing the passer impacts every pass play and not just passes directed towards the #2 WR) but also because a pass rusher fights a winning battle while a corner fights a losing battle.
Given enough time, a pass rusher will almost always find the QB. Given enough time, a WR will almost always beat a corner. Its the nature of the game, because of holding calls and the design of the game.
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The pass rush can come from many players, not just one. The aggregate pass rush of the best team in the NFL still allows the QB the attempt at least 450 passes (the Chiefs had the fewest attempts against them last two years with 464 in 2012 and 454 in 2011 ) in a given season.
In those minimum 450 pass attempts, how important do you think it was to have a good #2 CB?
What do you think a single pass rusher would need to do to impact a season as much as a good #2 CB? See, because the greatest pass rushing LB in the NFL won’t even impact the game enough to keep the #2 CB from having about 60 or more opportunities to give up a TD, big play, or first down, in a given season.
How good does the pass rush work when the #2 CB lines up 8-10 yards off the line of scrimmage?
How much does the pass rush matter when the #2 CB blows coverage, falls down while playing press, takes a bad angle on a tackle, goes for the INT and misses--leaving the receiver wide open, commits a holding or PI penalty since he was overmatched, consistently falls for double moves, has the faster WRs run by him, has the more physical WRs push him aside, needs a deep safety to ignore the run game and middle of the field to offset his shortcomings, or when he is really the #3 or #4 CB replacing the injured #2 guy.
Pass rushers are vital, but so are #2CBs. The both play every defensive snap. |
Dude, you are like obsessed with this number of pass attempts crap.
If my defense is going to go against 450 pass attempts for the year, I don't want a QB to think he has all day to throw. I want that QB to think he needs to get rid of the ball in less than 3 seconds or he will get his head taken off.
While sacks are important, just as important are hurries, hitting the QB, and forcing the offense to gameplan differently for your pass rush. |
Dude, you are like obsessed with ignoring how many pass attempts there are today in football. 
If your defense is giving up between 450 and 640 passes, regardless of how good the pass rush is, a #2CB is as important as ANY single pass rusher.
As of November 7th, 2012, well over half of the starting QBs in the NFL weren't sacked in less than 3 seconds on average. Also, only 3 QBs in the NFL had an average time over 3 seconds before they would pass.
Brandon Weeden, for example, averaged 2.84 seconds before he was sacked. He also would get the ball out in 2.72 seconds on average.
Bottom line is that almost all QBs get the ball off on almost all passing plays and most QB's complete over 60% of their passes.
Then what? Yup, it comes down to coverage and tackling.
QB's are already getting the ball off in less than 3 seconds. Pass rushers can prevent this on rare occasions, they can dictate when and where the ball is thrown on a few more occasions, but overall, the contribution from sacks, hits, hurries, and game planning for a pass-rusher goes out the window when you don't have a strong secondary.
The same will happen to a good secondary when the pass-rush is weak.
Defending the pass game is simply far more complicated than having a few good pass rushers (which we clearly had last year).
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duke2056
Joined: 21 Feb 2005
Posts: 7731
Location: Cleveland area
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Wow, you are just throwing out numbers and stats that have no actual tangible meaning whatsoever.
You are literally taking NOTHING into account that actually matters.
I dont care if they throw 1,000 times on us. If they are comfortable doing it, they will be successful even if you have 5 hall of fame corners.
If you make them uncomfortable, maybe get some sacks, make the QB throw from a spot in the pocket he would prefer not to, hit him a lot, tip some passes, and just in general get pressure to mess up the timing...........THAT is more important than a good secondary.
And last I checked, the #2 WR on a team doesn't get 600 targets.
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NEW 2011 draft prediction.
Cam Newton's dad accepts 200k for talking Cam into attending the draft, but Cam denies any knowledge of his dad getting money. |
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fsubrowns9510
Joined: 20 Feb 2008
Posts: 12526
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:46 am Post subject: |
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FYI guys I'm sure Horton will give us a little insight as to his defensive schemes when he gets introduced today at a 10am presser in Berea.
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Browns Forum HOF Member Class of 2011 |
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