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Panthers LB Luke Kuechly named Defensive Rookie of the year
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MNPackfan32


Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 7887
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
So either Luke is a terrible OLB or Beason is overrated as a MLB.


So thats it? Those are the only options? It cant be that Kuechly just played great and took the defense to the next level?

Quote:
So your defense went from poor to average. Both the Packers and Vikings had horrible pass defenses last year and Hayward and Smith were the only major changes made and those defenses made huge progress this year.


No, we didnt go from poor to average. We went from horrible to average. Argualy we went from horrible to slightly above average. See, you are choosing your words carefully. We were a bottom 2 or 3 defense last season.

And again, Kuechly was the only major change made as well. And our defense made huge progress as well.

Quote:
Plus Hayward made a huge impact no matter what spot he was on the field, outside or slot corner. I just think that Hayward and Smith had larger impacts on their defenses.


But my issue isnt you saying Smith or Hayward had larger impacts (though I probably disagree). My issue is with you saying he had a MUCH bigger impact. He didnt. And, to be honest, I doubt you had any idea how big an impact Kuechly had on our defense until I pointed it out just now. Otherwise you may not have made such a bold, incorrect statement.
Ok, so you are mad over 1 word? With the addition of Hayward we went from possibly the worst pass defense of all time, not just last year, worst of all time and we add Casey and then we became a top 10 pass defense in yards per play. That is a huge difference, from historically bad to top 10.

Yards per play is one stat. They definitely improved. But, at the same time, you had like 12 fewer interceptions. Was that Casey's fault as well? Does a defense improve by taking the ball away less?
Yeah the guy who was close to the top of the league in interceptions was the reason we had less. That's the dumbest thing I have heard all day. Seriously, did that really go through your mind? It was our other guys who didn't match last years totals, not the guy who was one of the better CB's in the league.
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MNPackfan32 wrote:
Josh Sitton, Mike Daniels

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J Pep 4 Step


Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 29636
Location: Greenvillain, NC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MNPackfan32 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
So either Luke is a terrible OLB or Beason is overrated as a MLB.


So thats it? Those are the only options? It cant be that Kuechly just played great and took the defense to the next level?

Quote:
So your defense went from poor to average. Both the Packers and Vikings had horrible pass defenses last year and Hayward and Smith were the only major changes made and those defenses made huge progress this year.


No, we didnt go from poor to average. We went from horrible to average. Argualy we went from horrible to slightly above average. See, you are choosing your words carefully. We were a bottom 2 or 3 defense last season.

And again, Kuechly was the only major change made as well. And our defense made huge progress as well.

Quote:
Plus Hayward made a huge impact no matter what spot he was on the field, outside or slot corner. I just think that Hayward and Smith had larger impacts on their defenses.


But my issue isnt you saying Smith or Hayward had larger impacts (though I probably disagree). My issue is with you saying he had a MUCH bigger impact. He didnt. And, to be honest, I doubt you had any idea how big an impact Kuechly had on our defense until I pointed it out just now. Otherwise you may not have made such a bold, incorrect statement.
Ok, so you are mad over 1 word? With the addition of Hayward we went from possibly the worst pass defense of all time, not just last year, worst of all time and we add Casey and then we became a top 10 pass defense in yards per play. That is a huge difference, from historically bad to top 10.

Yards per play is one stat. They definitely improved. But, at the same time, you had like 12 fewer interceptions. Was that Casey's fault as well? Does a defense improve by taking the ball away less?
Yeah the guy who was close to the top of the league in interceptions was the reason we had less. That's the dumbest thing I have heard all day. Seriously, did that really go through your mind? It was our other guys who didn't match last years totals, not the guy who was one of the better CB's in the league.


Pretty sure my point sailed about two miles over your head. Let me know if you need me to explain. I'll give you the opportunity to figure it out first though.
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MNPackfan32


Joined: 22 Sep 2010
Posts: 7887
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
So either Luke is a terrible OLB or Beason is overrated as a MLB.


So thats it? Those are the only options? It cant be that Kuechly just played great and took the defense to the next level?

Quote:
So your defense went from poor to average. Both the Packers and Vikings had horrible pass defenses last year and Hayward and Smith were the only major changes made and those defenses made huge progress this year.


No, we didnt go from poor to average. We went from horrible to average. Argualy we went from horrible to slightly above average. See, you are choosing your words carefully. We were a bottom 2 or 3 defense last season.

And again, Kuechly was the only major change made as well. And our defense made huge progress as well.

Quote:
Plus Hayward made a huge impact no matter what spot he was on the field, outside or slot corner. I just think that Hayward and Smith had larger impacts on their defenses.


But my issue isnt you saying Smith or Hayward had larger impacts (though I probably disagree). My issue is with you saying he had a MUCH bigger impact. He didnt. And, to be honest, I doubt you had any idea how big an impact Kuechly had on our defense until I pointed it out just now. Otherwise you may not have made such a bold, incorrect statement.
Ok, so you are mad over 1 word? With the addition of Hayward we went from possibly the worst pass defense of all time, not just last year, worst of all time and we add Casey and then we became a top 10 pass defense in yards per play. That is a huge difference, from historically bad to top 10.

Yards per play is one stat. They definitely improved. But, at the same time, you had like 12 fewer interceptions. Was that Casey's fault as well? Does a defense improve by taking the ball away less?
Yeah the guy who was close to the top of the league in interceptions was the reason we had less. That's the dumbest thing I have heard all day. Seriously, did that really go through your mind? It was our other guys who didn't match last years totals, not the guy who was one of the better CB's in the league.


Pretty sure my point sailed about two miles over your head. Let me know if you need me to explain. I'll give you the opportunity to figure it out first though.
But I wasn't dumb enough to try to say that Luke made your defense worse, I am just saying Hayward made more of an impact on our defense than Luke did on your defense. But I guess you guys can't handle a different opinion Confused
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MNPackfan32 wrote:
Josh Sitton, Mike Daniels

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J Pep 4 Step


Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 29636
Location: Greenvillain, NC
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MNPackfan32 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
So either Luke is a terrible OLB or Beason is overrated as a MLB.


So thats it? Those are the only options? It cant be that Kuechly just played great and took the defense to the next level?

Quote:
So your defense went from poor to average. Both the Packers and Vikings had horrible pass defenses last year and Hayward and Smith were the only major changes made and those defenses made huge progress this year.


No, we didnt go from poor to average. We went from horrible to average. Argualy we went from horrible to slightly above average. See, you are choosing your words carefully. We were a bottom 2 or 3 defense last season.

And again, Kuechly was the only major change made as well. And our defense made huge progress as well.

Quote:
Plus Hayward made a huge impact no matter what spot he was on the field, outside or slot corner. I just think that Hayward and Smith had larger impacts on their defenses.


But my issue isnt you saying Smith or Hayward had larger impacts (though I probably disagree). My issue is with you saying he had a MUCH bigger impact. He didnt. And, to be honest, I doubt you had any idea how big an impact Kuechly had on our defense until I pointed it out just now. Otherwise you may not have made such a bold, incorrect statement.
Ok, so you are mad over 1 word? With the addition of Hayward we went from possibly the worst pass defense of all time, not just last year, worst of all time and we add Casey and then we became a top 10 pass defense in yards per play. That is a huge difference, from historically bad to top 10.

Yards per play is one stat. They definitely improved. But, at the same time, you had like 12 fewer interceptions. Was that Casey's fault as well? Does a defense improve by taking the ball away less?
Yeah the guy who was close to the top of the league in interceptions was the reason we had less. That's the dumbest thing I have heard all day. Seriously, did that really go through your mind? It was our other guys who didn't match last years totals, not the guy who was one of the better CB's in the league.


Pretty sure my point sailed about two miles over your head. Let me know if you need me to explain. I'll give you the opportunity to figure it out first though.
But I wasn't dumb enough to try to say that Luke made your defense worse, I am just saying Hayward made more of an impact on our defense than Luke did on your defense. But I guess you guys can't handle a different opinion Confused


If you are suggesting I said Hayward made your defense worse, it's, again, because the point sailed over your head.

What makes you think I cant handle a difference in opinion? You seem to have taken exception to Kuechly's getting the DROY award much more personally than I took anything you said.

And, to be clear, you didnt just say you thought Hayward made more of an impact. You said he made MUCH MORE of an impact. As if to say it wasnt close and the voting body got it all wrong. I am just pointing out the type of impact Kuechly actually had on our defense. Since its clear you werent aware of what kind of impact he had on our defense. I am trying to enlighten you.

I dont know why we are even arguing at this point. I wasnt aware that Hayward was only in on 63% of his defenses snaps. If that's indeed true, you are giving him too much credit. Other players clearly stepped up while the guy was on the sideline for almost 40% of the defensive snaps. I dont see much of an argument he had as bigger impact on his defense thasn Kuechly in light of that fact.
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RainbowCarebear


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stack them tackles.
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iknowcool


Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 13233
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RainbowCarebear wrote:
Stack them tackles.


I understand tackles might not be able to boost your resume, but why is it people are trying to hold it against him?

Even worse, why do people keep acting like that is all he did? Kuechly made plenty of tackles at or around the LOS. He was an impact player. He had more stuffs than Patrick Willis. More than Bowman. More than Urlacher. More than Wagner. Along with 2 interceptions and 8 pass deflections. Kuechly was an impact player.
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iknowcool


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MNPackfan32 wrote:
Well it wasn't Nick Perry who didn't play after week 6. It wasn't Jerel Worthy who is a run stopper and a poor pass rusher. It certainly wasn't Mike Daniels or Jerron McMillian who saw limited snaps. Hayward was probably the biggest reason. Not saying Luke is bad I just think Hayward and Smith were better and more important.


I'm not saying what you may have thought about Kuechly or not. But you said, "Hayward was much more important." Which is why I'm asking, do you think Hayward (who played 63% of the snaps) was the sole reason for the improvement? Did other players not improve or something? Did 1 nickel corner make your pass defense that much better by himself?

Because that is the only way I can see how he is much more vital than Kuechly was, or is.

And you want to talk about historically bad defenses? The only reason Carolina's pass defense wasn't historically bad in total yardage was because teams didn't pass on us nearly as much as they did GB (GB was 1st in pass attempts vs., Carolina was 27th). But our pass defense was horrific in 2011. 32nd in NY/A, 20th in INTs, 32nd in Y/A, 3rd worst in QB Rating, and 30th in CMP%. Your pass defense was not worse than ours. And our run defense was hardly any better. And yet look at how much better we were the next season with Kuechly and D. Edwards being the only positive change with a bunch of negatives. On top of that, Kuechly actually played 88% of our defensive snaps. So I'm at a lost of how Hayward was somehow more important than Kuechly, much less "much" more important.

And I'm not saying Hayward shouldn't have gotten DROY. Like J Pep said, it could have went either way. But Kuechly absolutely did have a great argument for the award and he didn't win it simply because he was a high pick. He won it because he performed like a high pick, and then some.
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JBURGE25


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think they got it right. Wouldn't have been surprised if Hayward came 2nd in voting to Kuechly, personally I think it should have been that way, but Kuechly deserved to win it so it really doesn't matter
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wolf7373


Joined: 24 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MNPackfan32 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
MNPackfan32 wrote:
So either Luke is a terrible OLB or Beason is overrated as a MLB.


So thats it? Those are the only options? It cant be that Kuechly just played great and took the defense to the next level?

Quote:
So your defense went from poor to average. Both the Packers and Vikings had horrible pass defenses last year and Hayward and Smith were the only major changes made and those defenses made huge progress this year.


No, we didnt go from poor to average. We went from horrible to average. Argualy we went from horrible to slightly above average. See, you are choosing your words carefully. We were a bottom 2 or 3 defense last season.

And again, Kuechly was the only major change made as well. And our defense made huge progress as well.

Quote:
Plus Hayward made a huge impact no matter what spot he was on the field, outside or slot corner. I just think that Hayward and Smith had larger impacts on their defenses.


But my issue isnt you saying Smith or Hayward had larger impacts (though I probably disagree). My issue is with you saying he had a MUCH bigger impact. He didnt. And, to be honest, I doubt you had any idea how big an impact Kuechly had on our defense until I pointed it out just now. Otherwise you may not have made such a bold, incorrect statement.
Ok, so you are mad over 1 word? With the addition of Hayward we went from possibly the worst pass defense of all time, not just last year, worst of all time and we add Casey and then we became a top 10 pass defense in yards per play. That is a huge difference, from historically bad to top 10.

Yards per play is one stat. They definitely improved. But, at the same time, you had like 12 fewer interceptions. Was that Casey's fault as well? Does a defense improve by taking the ball away less?
Yeah the guy who was close to the top of the league in interceptions was the reason we had less. That's the dumbest thing I have heard all day. Seriously, did that really go through your mind? It was our other guys who didn't match last years totals, not the guy who was one of the better CB's in the league.


Pretty sure my point sailed about two miles over your head. Let me know if you need me to explain. I'll give you the opportunity to figure it out first though.
But I wasn't dumb enough to try to say that Luke made your defense worse, I am just saying Hayward made more of an impact on our defense than Luke did on your defense. But I guess you guys can't handle a different opinion Confused



The main reason as to why Casey Hayward didn't and really couldn't have made as much of an impact as Luke Kuechly is very simple. Casey Hayward plays cornerback, he is either responsible for one player or one side of the field. He is also further away from the ball at the start of the snap. Much of his impact has to do with the front 7 on his team. It is impossible for him to have as much of an impact as a MLB who plays over the ball three to five yards deep and is in the middle of the field. You also have to consider the interior defensive line playing in front of Kuechly. It is the worst in the league, and that is not a debate. It is absolutely putrid and neither Daun or Ray Edwards or Sione Fua commanded a double team ever this season. I think that Casey Hayward played phenomenal, but losing a CB is not really a big deal. Look at the Jets, they lost Revis and what happened, well the Jets through 17 weeks were 2nd best in terms of Wide Receiver production. If Carolina loses Beason and then Kuechly teams would still be running for TDs. Kuechly maybe does not rank as high as other linebackers relative to Hayward and CBs but his impact is still more profound.
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Omniphobe


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude looks like Clark Kent.

I approve.
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asgardian


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My homer in me was hoping that Janoris Jenkins would win it. I mean, he did account for 28 points by himself. That said, he was inconsistent to say the least. But I'm a homer so I don't care.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm more upset about Kuechly winning this over Wagner than RG3 winning OROY over Wilson.

Wagner flat out played better this year.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
I'm more upset about Kuechly winning this over Wagner than RG3 winning OROY over Wilson.

Wagner flat out played better this year.


How do you figure? I mean, if it upsets you, then you should be able to make a pretty convincing argument that Wagner clearly outplayed Kuechly. Care to state your case?

I mean, I think there were a handful of very deserving candidates. But if you think this was clearly Wagner's award to win, or that Kuechly somehow didnt deserve the award, I would love to hear you make your case. Because from where I am sitting Kuechly has a pretty fair case for the award.
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Last edited by J Pep 4 Step on Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JBURGE25


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
I'm more upset about Kuechly winning this over Wagner than RG3 winning OROY over Wilson.

Wagner flat out played better this year.


Funny, I like both the winners better than the Seahawks candidates this year, not just cuz of the name.
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Spartica4Real


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO they got it right. Kuechly was everywhere on the field, great leader, smart, instincts for the ball. Gonna be a pain in the [inappropriate/removed] playing this guy twice a year.
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