Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Scenario: Who would you take here?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 14, 15, 16, 17  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Detroit Lions
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Of the players available; who do you pick?
DeMarcus Milliner - CB - Alabama
12%
 12%  [ 7 ]
Jarvis Jones - DE/OLB - Georgia
8%
 8%  [ 5 ]
Bjoern Werner - DE - Florida State
10%
 10%  [ 6 ]
Kenny Vaccaro - S - Texas
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
Eric Fisher - OT - Central Michigan
10%
 10%  [ 6 ]
Chance Warmack - OG - Alabama
33%
 33%  [ 19 ]
Ezekiel Ansah - DE - BYU
5%
 5%  [ 3 ]
Lane Johnson - OT - Oklahoma
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Johnathan Cooper - OG - North Carolina
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Damontre Moore - DE - Texas A&M
16%
 16%  [ 9 ]
Other (Comment below)
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 56

Author Message
stylish313


Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 15019
Location: Flat Rock, Mi
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
Guys, think about it. If in the last 20 years, Guards havent been taken higher than 15 (highest I can recall is Hutchinson and Pouncey), then for Warmack to go top 10, let alone 10- 5, he would have to be a better prospect can the Hutch by a lot.

NFL teams prove that guards simply arent important enough to warrant a top 5 pick. The only position on the offensive line you ever see taken with really high picks is LT.

The reason is that why spend such a premium pick on a guy that is only 1/5th of his unit? I mean, when you take a DE, he is half of his unit. When you take a CB, he is half of his unit. LB, 3rd of his unit. And so on. They are more important. Poor Guard play can be compensated for rather easily, and the difference of impact between an elite guard and a good guard is much smaller than the gap between an elite DE and average DE of elite CB and average CB.

The difference of impact between a Chance Warmack and Larry Warford is much smaller than the difference of impact between a guy like Damontre Moore or Ziggy Ansah (if fills his potential, of course then he would be elite) and a guy like Alex Okafer or Datone Jones.

I said this earlier and Ill say it again, the "safe route" is what teams stuck in mediocrity do. Look at the Dolphins. Taking Jake Long #1, Pouncey # 15. Yeah, theyve both been great. But it hasnt gotten them jack.

If Mayhew and Co. had balls they would take Ziggy Ansah, because he can be a JPP type. He has the physical tools, he just needs his game refined. If he fills his potential, his impact would blow Warmack's outo f the water.
I love your math, an OG is 1/5th of his unit when there are only 2 guards out of 5 offensive linemen; but a DE is 1/2th of his unit, when there are 2 DEs out of the 4 defensive linemen- your math is impeccable.

I don't care that guards haven't been taken high in the past 15 years, the fact that teams like the Patriots and Saints are making these guys one of the top 2 or 3 paid players on their team and handing them $50M+ contracts tell me all I need to know about their value on the football field.

A team like the Dolphins failed because of many factors outside of their OL, but most importantly it's a horrible comparison because they don't have a franchise QB, while we do. Now we must protect our franchise QB by giving him a pocket to step up into, the way that the Patriots, Saints, 49ers, Ravens, Packers all have done. It would also help if we weren't forcing our franchise QB to break records in passing attempts-he was clearly affected by it last season and everyone saw it.

Taking Ansah wouldn't be showing balls, that's status quo-take the DE top #5. Showing balls would be going outside of the norm and taking the best player in the draft, since he happens to be a OG.
_________________
Oh no, we suck again
- Calvin's out
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 35455
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't care about the past. The past had no rookie salary cap. Nobody wanted to be on the hook for a 60mill rookie OG. Things are different now. Teams can afford to take the best player regardless of position.
_________________
Draft_FanAddict wrote:
If that doesn't concern you, I don't know what would...a missing head?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Sllim Pickens


Moderator
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 19329
Location: Middle of the Mitten
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
Guys, think about it. If in the last 20 years, Guards havent been taken higher than 15 (highest I can recall is Hutchinson and Pouncey), then for Warmack to go top 10, let alone 10- 5, he would have to be a better prospect can the Hutch by a lot.

NFL teams prove that guards simply arent important enough to warrant a top 5 pick. The only position on the offensive line you ever see taken with really high picks is LT.

The reason is that why spend such a premium pick on a guy that is only 1/5th of his unit? I mean, when you take a DE, he is half of his unit. When you take a CB, he is half of his unit. LB, 3rd of his unit. And so on. They are more important. Poor Guard play can be compensated for rather easily, and the difference of impact between an elite guard and a good guard is much smaller than the gap between an elite DE and average DE of elite CB and average CB.

The difference of impact between a Chance Warmack and Larry Warford is much smaller than the difference of impact between a guy like Damontre Moore or Ziggy Ansah (if fills his potential, of course then he would be elite) and a guy like Alex Okafer or Datone Jones.

I said this earlier and Ill say it again, the "safe route" is what teams stuck in mediocrity do. Look at the Dolphins. Taking Jake Long #1, Pouncey # 15. Yeah, theyve both been great. But it hasnt gotten them jack.

If Mayhew and Co. had balls they would take Ziggy Ansah, because he can be a JPP type. He has the physical tools, he just needs his game refined. If he fills his potential, his impact would blow Warmack's outo f the water.


You are discussing the issues teams had with drafting a guard high with no salary cap. When there was not the threat of insane rookie deals, OGs were drafted high pretty regularly.

On top of that, I think Warmack is that good of a prospect, especially in comparison to the other prospects available. I also think there is a much bigger difference between Warmack and Warford/Cooper than there is with Moore, Ansah and Okafer. In fact I like Okafer more than either of them for us.

The Dolphins drafted those two years apart, and are about to lose Long. They have also taken major risks on Ted Ginn, Ronnie Brown, Ryan Tanenhill, and Jared Odrick. Nothing the Dolphins have done has been safe, including Pouncey who was a reach where drafted.

Ansah has the tools of a JPP, but for every JPP there are loads of Vernon Gholstons and Ikaika Alama Francis'. He is more raw than JPP and I am not confident in him reaching his potential.
_________________


Adopt-A-Lion - Larry Warford, OG as in Original Gangsta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
skatebeanz


Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 19366
Location: Jamison. on the Sweet-sig.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mayock said Jordan would be a good fit for DET in 2 years when he can bulk up. He said he is too thin right now being an OLB then a 4-3 DE to make an impact.
_________________

Sig bet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sllim Pickens


Moderator
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 19329
Location: Middle of the Mitten
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:
Mayock said Jordan would be a good fit for DET in 2 years when he can bulk up. He said he is too thin right now being an OLB then a 4-3 DE to make an impact.


I'm not sure this staff will be here in 2 years so that pick would scare me.
_________________


Adopt-A-Lion - Larry Warford, OG as in Original Gangsta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
IDOG_det


Moderator
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 26069
Location: #JDI
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Mayock said Jordan would be a good fit for DET in 2 years when he can bulk up. He said he is too thin right now being an OLB then a 4-3 DE to make an impact.


I'm not sure this staff will be here in 2 years so that pick would scare me.
Well if the staff is gone in 2 years, then that means the new staff gets a bulked up Dion Jordan (which is good).
_________________
2014 Adopt-A-Lion #1: Eric Ebron
2014 Adopt-A-Lion #2: Martin Mayhew



R.I.P. Stylish
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
skatebeanz


Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 19366
Location: Jamison. on the Sweet-sig.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Mayock said Jordan would be a good fit for DET in 2 years when he can bulk up. He said he is too thin right now being an OLB then a 4-3 DE to make an impact.


I'm not sure this staff will be here in 2 years so that pick would scare me.
Scares me thinking the staff needs to be in win now mode TBH (if you are correct).
_________________

Sig bet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sllim Pickens


Moderator
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 19329
Location: Middle of the Mitten
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Mayock said Jordan would be a good fit for DET in 2 years when he can bulk up. He said he is too thin right now being an OLB then a 4-3 DE to make an impact.


I'm not sure this staff will be here in 2 years so that pick would scare me.
Well if the staff is gone in 2 years, then that means the new staff gets a bulked up Dion Jordan (which is good).


Beefed up enough to be a small DE fit for the wide 9. Doesn't leave the next staff with many options and if they change schemes and he doesn't fit, it's once again a wasted pick.

As to Skates concerns, I don't like them having to be in win now mode, but when you look at the record over their tenure, the ay the seasoned finished, and he lack of development, they should be on the hot seat.
_________________


Adopt-A-Lion - Larry Warford, OG as in Original Gangsta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
skatebeanz


Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 19366
Location: Jamison. on the Sweet-sig.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Mayock said Jordan would be a good fit for DET in 2 years when he can bulk up. He said he is too thin right now being an OLB then a 4-3 DE to make an impact.


I'm not sure this staff will be here in 2 years so that pick would scare me.
Well if the staff is gone in 2 years, then that means the new staff gets a bulked up Dion Jordan (which is good).


Beefed up enough to be a small DE fit for the wide 9. Doesn't leave the next staff with many options and if they change schemes and he doesn't fit, it's once again a wasted pick.

As to Skates concerns, I don't like them having to be in win now mode, but when you look at the record over their tenure, the ay the seasoned finished, and he lack of development, they should be on the hot seat.
He is sayign if the staff we have now get canned Jordan should be thickened up by then. Because even in our Wide-9 he is too thin.
_________________

Sig bet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sllim Pickens


Moderator
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 19329
Location: Middle of the Mitten
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Mayock said Jordan would be a good fit for DET in 2 years when he can bulk up. He said he is too thin right now being an OLB then a 4-3 DE to make an impact.


I'm not sure this staff will be here in 2 years so that pick would scare me.
Well if the staff is gone in 2 years, then that means the new staff gets a bulked up Dion Jordan (which is good).


Beefed up enough to be a small DE fit for the wide 9. Doesn't leave the next staff with many options and if they change schemes and he doesn't fit, it's once again a wasted pick.

As to Skates concerns, I don't like them having to be in win now mode, but when you look at the record over their tenure, the ay the seasoned finished, and he lack of development, they should be on the hot seat.
He is sayign if the staff we have now get canned Jordan should be thickened up by then. Because even in our Wide-9 he is too thin.


He is a 230 lb DE. Bulking up to wide 9 standards is 255. That would still greatly limit his versatility. I don't see him getting into the 270 range, at least without losing athleticism.

I still am not a fan of drafting for two years down the road when there are talents available that could impact us now.
_________________


Adopt-A-Lion - Larry Warford, OG as in Original Gangsta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
IDOG_det


Moderator
Joined: 02 Mar 2009
Posts: 26069
Location: #JDI
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sllim Pickens wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
Sllim Pickens wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
Mayock said Jordan would be a good fit for DET in 2 years when he can bulk up. He said he is too thin right now being an OLB then a 4-3 DE to make an impact.


I'm not sure this staff will be here in 2 years so that pick would scare me.
Well if the staff is gone in 2 years, then that means the new staff gets a bulked up Dion Jordan (which is good).


Beefed up enough to be a small DE fit for the wide 9. Doesn't leave the next staff with many options and if they change schemes and he doesn't fit, it's once again a wasted pick.

As to Skates concerns, I don't like them having to be in win now mode, but when you look at the record over their tenure, the ay the seasoned finished, and he lack of development, they should be on the hot seat.
He is sayign if the staff we have now get canned Jordan should be thickened up by then. Because even in our Wide-9 he is too thin.


He is a 230 lb DE. Bulking up to wide 9 standards is 255. That would still greatly limit his versatility. I don't see him getting into the 270 range, at least without losing athleticism.

I still am not a fan of drafting for two years down the road when there are talents available that could impact us now.
255 is still a good weight for him though. He could be a 3-4 OLB at that weight, maybe be the small end in a 4-3 under. If we drafted him, he bulked up, and we then got a new FO, he could be really flexible for their new defense.
_________________
2014 Adopt-A-Lion #1: Eric Ebron
2014 Adopt-A-Lion #2: Martin Mayhew



R.I.P. Stylish
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
skatebeanz


Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 19366
Location: Jamison. on the Sweet-sig.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CBS has him at 243 now.
_________________

Sig bet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25888
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SadLionFan00 wrote:
Guys, think about it. If in the last 20 years, Guards havent been taken higher than 15 (highest I can recall is Hutchinson and Pouncey), then for Warmack to go top 10, let alone 10- 5, he would have to be a better prospect can the Hutch by a lot.

NFL teams prove that guards simply arent important enough to warrant a top 5 pick. The only position on the offensive line you ever see taken with really high picks is LT.

The reason is that why spend such a premium pick on a guy that is only 1/5th of his unit? I mean, when you take a DE, he is half of his unit. When you take a CB, he is half of his unit. LB, 3rd of his unit. And so on. They are more important. Poor Guard play can be compensated for rather easily, and the difference of impact between an elite guard and a good guard is much smaller than the gap between an elite DE and average DE of elite CB and average CB.

The difference of impact between a Chance Warmack and Larry Warford is much smaller than the difference of impact between a guy like Damontre Moore or Ziggy Ansah (if fills his potential, of course then he would be elite) and a guy like Alex Okafer or Datone Jones.

I said this earlier and Ill say it again, the "safe route" is what teams stuck in mediocrity do. Look at the Dolphins. Taking Jake Long #1, Pouncey # 15. Yeah, theyve both been great. But it hasnt gotten them jack.

If Mayhew and Co. had balls they would take Ziggy Ansah, because he can be a JPP type. He has the physical tools, he just needs his game refined. If he fills his potential, his impact would blow Warmack's outo f the water.


Warmack is a better prospect than Hutchinson.was.
_________________


Sig by El Ramster

Team Stylish
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 35455
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diehardlionfan wrote:
SadLionFan00 wrote:
Guys, think about it. If in the last 20 years, Guards havent been taken higher than 15 (highest I can recall is Hutchinson and Pouncey), then for Warmack to go top 10, let alone 10- 5, he would have to be a better prospect can the Hutch by a lot.

NFL teams prove that guards simply arent important enough to warrant a top 5 pick. The only position on the offensive line you ever see taken with really high picks is LT.

The reason is that why spend such a premium pick on a guy that is only 1/5th of his unit? I mean, when you take a DE, he is half of his unit. When you take a CB, he is half of his unit. LB, 3rd of his unit. And so on. They are more important. Poor Guard play can be compensated for rather easily, and the difference of impact between an elite guard and a good guard is much smaller than the gap between an elite DE and average DE of elite CB and average CB.

The difference of impact between a Chance Warmack and Larry Warford is much smaller than the difference of impact between a guy like Damontre Moore or Ziggy Ansah (if fills his potential, of course then he would be elite) and a guy like Alex Okafer or Datone Jones.

I said this earlier and Ill say it again, the "safe route" is what teams stuck in mediocrity do. Look at the Dolphins. Taking Jake Long #1, Pouncey # 15. Yeah, theyve both been great. But it hasnt gotten them jack.

If Mayhew and Co. had balls they would take Ziggy Ansah, because he can be a JPP type. He has the physical tools, he just needs his game refined. If he fills his potential, his impact would blow Warmack's outo f the water.


Warmack is a better prospect than Hutchinson.was.

Ya, revisionist draft history. Many of the players that turned out to be great players were not nearly as good of prospects. But it is easy for one to forget, I wonder how many people know Darrelle Revis was the second DB taken in that draft. Or how about the famous "there are no Tom Brady type prospects in this draft". Well, actually....

The more I learn about Warmack, the more I think I am riding the wagon with you guys. This guy is amazing at what he does.
_________________
Draft_FanAddict wrote:
If that doesn't concern you, I don't know what would...a missing head?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
diehardlionfan


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 25888
Location: Ottawa
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
IDOG_det wrote:
diehardlionfan wrote:
YlionsY wrote:
Is the problem there are better players than Warmack available or is the problem Warmack is the better player but doesn't play the pre-rookie wage scale positions of importance? Or both?

Just hope the Lions take the BPA. I like Warmack at 5 but if the Lions decided to go a different route there are other players I like as well. Just hope the Lions take a lesser player because Warmack plays G.


Those against Warmack agree he's a fine player they just want to draft a lesser player that plays what they consider to be a higher value position.
Then there's me who wants to draft a better player or trade down.


Now you've introduced another variable in a discussion about Warmack. In a poll I suggest 100% of Lions fans would trade down.

All right, who is this better player?

All I see is you singing the praises of Ansah who is definitely not a better player.
I think Ansah is a better prospect, and would be a guy I'd take over Warmack. There are 3 DT's I'd take over him, but we don't really have room for them, so they are pretty much out of the picture. I'm so up and down on Dion Jordan, in some ways I'd easily take him over Warmack, but in other ways I get turned off. And, I think I'd take Banks and Rhodes over him. Geno Smith too, but we're not taking a QB. Also, I might consider Jonathan Cooper over him. Other than that, I think he'd be my #1 choice.

EDIT: Jarvis Jones easily as well without the spine condition


There is part of the problem.

The Lions haven't shown good judgement in risk assessment which is proven by the drafting of Best and Young.

I can't argue that Ansah, following the combine may be a better prospect but he isn't a better player currently.

I've never been one that supports taking increased risk with first round picks. When a team fails at drafting in the first and second round they have no hope of becoming a good team. It just sets them back to far. To me Ansah has a high ceiling but I'm not taking that risk with a first round pick.

In the first round I'm taking the best player that also fills a need and that's Warmack.

Star is also an excellent player but unless they switch Fairley or Suh to DE its overkill at the position.

Joeckel and Fisher are also fine players who I believe are worth the number 5 pick. I could support the Lions drafting either one of them (I prefer Fisher) depending on what Mayhew does with Gosder. If they don't resign him these two players would become number one on my list.

Of the DE I don't see a single prospect that I believe, at this point in time is worth a top 10 pick. Following the combine I might feel differently. I especially want to see Ansah's results. Of the existing potential DE in this draft I like Ansah, Jordan, and Sam Montgomery.

Jordan to me is the most intriguing player in this draft because of his frame. I am very interested in his arm length. He has the frame to add weight and I expect he could start immediately on the Lions but his full effectiveness wouldn't be realized for two years.

The Lions don't need a QB thank goodness because I disagree with you about Smith. No way is he a player that is worth the number five pick.

Jones is a great LBer but as I've said before unless I here his stenosis diagnosis was wrong he's off the board. It is interesting with all the arguments about position value how many people are advocating him at number five.

This is a bad draft to have a top 10 selection. It's short on elite prospects but has great depth at some positions. If the Lions could manage a pair of trade downs and turn this draft into having five second round selections I would be thrilled. I just don't see any players teams are going to be willing to trade up for because the difference between players on a positional ranking isn't big.

I've watched allot of football over the years and Warmack is the best offensive guard prospect I've ever seen. He plays at a level that he can immediately be a starter in the NFL. He plays a position that lends itself to a long career.

So he's probably the safest pick in the draft and plays a position of need on the Lions roster. There is a rookie cap in place so his salary won't be out of line.

As I've mentioned numerous times I'm not a believer in taking on extra risk with high draft choices. Blowing a high draft pick simply sets a team back to far.

Can my feelings change about Warmack? No, however my thoughts on who they should draft might depending on what transpires over the next few months.

Mayhew may sign Levitre. He may decide to let Gosder walk. Backus might retire. All those occurrences would impact who I believe the Lions should take at number five.

My thoughts are born out of many years of futility within the Lions organization. They have a poor drafting history and a record of making risky draft selections that don't work out. I have a philosophy that you build a team inside, outside front to back. I also believe a team needs to have balance which the Lions certainly don't. They are terribly ineffective running between the tackles and controlling the clock.

For many years the Denver Bronco's demonstrated how an elite line resulted in plug and play running backs. It seemed any back they plugged in could run behind that line.

The Lions by their own admission have to get better on the interior oline. They have to be able to maximize the abilities of the current running backs as well as allow Stafford to improve.

In my opinion Warmack offers the best improvement to the roster by enhancing those other players abilities.

Now, some would argue that the oline can be improved other ways. I completely agree! The Lions could sign Levitre or chose to select a guard later in the draft.

This same argument could be made for the defensive end position as well. The DE position lacks elite prospects but has great depth. The Lions are likely to find a quality DE in the second and third rounds.

Unlike most here my feelings on DE aren't as strong as others and my feelings could be changed based on what Mayhew does with the Lions free agents. If the Lions keep LoJack, Lewis, and Young I would be fine with them adding depth later in the draft. I'm much more concerned about the safety position frankly.

So, I hope this explains my thought process. Many of the arguments people are making for a position can be made for any of the positions in this draft. Thankfully for the Lions the depth at the teams greatest areas of need are deep. What's lacking is elite prospects so its not the best year to have a top ten selection.
_________________


Sig by El Ramster

Team Stylish
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Detroit Lions All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 14, 15, 16, 17  Next
Page 15 of 17

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group