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Browns WR Josh Gordon suspended for 2 games by NFL
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BwickBrownie


Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 1400
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReggieCamp wrote:
The article has plenty of merit, but one important point is that the banned substance list that he links in the article is from the old CBA. Unless I'm looking at the wrong one, I don't think the new CBA has a black and white list of banned substances. Also, unless I missed it, I don't see marijuana on the banned list, but it's obviously banned.

I don't trust Gordon as far as I could throw him, but it's still possible that he failed because of codeine. But whether he's lying or not, the important part is that he gets his act together.


I know you weren't making a big issue of it, but for clarification purposes, it seems like the banned substances list (http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/Banned%20Substance%20List.pdf) is more pertaining to PED's, while the substance abuse policy agreed to in the new CBA deals with drugs and alcohol.
http://www.nflevolution.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/2011-synopsis-of-the-policies-final-8-19-11-5081.pdf
Quote:
WHAT SUBSTANCES OF ABUSE ARE PROHIBITED?
-- Cocaine, Marijuana, Amphetamines, Opioids and Opiates, PCP and MDMA (Ecstasy),
and any other substances required by the Medical Director.


That being said, opiate codeine would seemingly fall under an "Opioid or opiate" so that does seem to be a problem with the article
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pmk


Joined: 21 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BwickBrownie wrote:


On the contrary... that's why he would be a great mentor. Now, if the suggestion was "Get LT to mentor him!" then I could understand the response, but listen to Irvin's HOF acceptance speech. Heck, listen to any interviews he gives. I listened when Tony Rizzo interviewed him the morning before his inductance and it was, without a doubt, the best football interview I've ever heard. The guy, plain and simple, oozes respect for the game. Yeah, he might be pompous, but he also was an amazing WR and given his past, he could speak to Gordon with a personal insight that would make an impact.
Oh I totally agree with how he sounds now after the fact. I hated him when he was with the boys but he's a great TV personality. I just question whether his message would get through to Gordon when he was pretty much the prototype of the party hard but still maintain a high level of play guy for the 90s. Maybe Gordon would get his act together from the "do as I say not as I do" pep talk from Irvin but I know if I was in his shoes I would take Irvin's mentorship as disingenuous.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pmk wrote:
BwickBrownie wrote:


On the contrary... that's why he would be a great mentor. Now, if the suggestion was "Get LT to mentor him!" then I could understand the response, but listen to Irvin's HOF acceptance speech. Heck, listen to any interviews he gives. I listened when Tony Rizzo interviewed him the morning before his inductance and it was, without a doubt, the best football interview I've ever heard. The guy, plain and simple, oozes respect for the game. Yeah, he might be pompous, but he also was an amazing WR and given his past, he could speak to Gordon with a personal insight that would make an impact.
Oh I totally agree with how he sounds now after the fact. I hated him when he was with the boys but he's a great TV personality. I just question whether his message would get through to Gordon when he was pretty much the prototype of the party hard but still maintain a high level of play guy for the 90s. Maybe Gordon would get his act together from the "do as I say not as I do" pep talk from Irvin but I know if I was in his shoes I would take Irvin's mentorship as disingenuous.


I think you're confusing something a person does in the past with what they are doing now. Right now, it appears that Irvin has overcome these issues. It's hardly disingenuous to mentor another to overcome mistakes made in the past when the mentor has actually done so.

It seems that it would actually be disingenuous to mentor someone when the mentor has no real understanding of overcoming similar issues.
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pmk


Joined: 21 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
pmk wrote:
BwickBrownie wrote:


On the contrary... that's why he would be a great mentor. Now, if the suggestion was "Get LT to mentor him!" then I could understand the response, but listen to Irvin's HOF acceptance speech. Heck, listen to any interviews he gives. I listened when Tony Rizzo interviewed him the morning before his inductance and it was, without a doubt, the best football interview I've ever heard. The guy, plain and simple, oozes respect for the game. Yeah, he might be pompous, but he also was an amazing WR and given his past, he could speak to Gordon with a personal insight that would make an impact.
Oh I totally agree with how he sounds now after the fact. I hated him when he was with the boys but he's a great TV personality. I just question whether his message would get through to Gordon when he was pretty much the prototype of the party hard but still maintain a high level of play guy for the 90s. Maybe Gordon would get his act together from the "do as I say not as I do" pep talk from Irvin but I know if I was in his shoes I would take Irvin's mentorship as disingenuous.


I think you're confusing something a person does in the past with what they are doing now. Right now, it appears that Irvin has overcome these issues. It's hardly disingenuous to mentor another to overcome mistakes made in the past when the mentor has actually done so.

It seems that it would actually be disingenuous to mentor someone when the mentor has no real understanding of overcoming similar issues.
Irvin didn't overcome those issues though, he just played through them. That's what irks me about him being a mentor, how could Gordon take Irvin seriously when he was partying his [inappropriate/removed] off (and tbf I'm completely assuming this but from what I remember this was the case) while in his prime on the cowboys? I get that he's cleaned up his act now but a much better candidate for mentorship of a young player who is struggling with drug abuse would be a player who was at the top of his game, got caught and then spiraled out of the league. Not someone who was doing coke off the lomardi trophy with troy aikman (although god damn that must have been a hell of a party) and managed to still go on and have a HOF career.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pmk wrote:
Entropy wrote:
pmk wrote:
BwickBrownie wrote:


On the contrary... that's why he would be a great mentor. Now, if the suggestion was "Get LT to mentor him!" then I could understand the response, but listen to Irvin's HOF acceptance speech. Heck, listen to any interviews he gives. I listened when Tony Rizzo interviewed him the morning before his inductance and it was, without a doubt, the best football interview I've ever heard. The guy, plain and simple, oozes respect for the game. Yeah, he might be pompous, but he also was an amazing WR and given his past, he could speak to Gordon with a personal insight that would make an impact.
Oh I totally agree with how he sounds now after the fact. I hated him when he was with the boys but he's a great TV personality. I just question whether his message would get through to Gordon when he was pretty much the prototype of the party hard but still maintain a high level of play guy for the 90s. Maybe Gordon would get his act together from the "do as I say not as I do" pep talk from Irvin but I know if I was in his shoes I would take Irvin's mentorship as disingenuous.


I think you're confusing something a person does in the past with what they are doing now. Right now, it appears that Irvin has overcome these issues. It's hardly disingenuous to mentor another to overcome mistakes made in the past when the mentor has actually done so.

It seems that it would actually be disingenuous to mentor someone when the mentor has no real understanding of overcoming similar issues.
Irvin didn't overcome those issues though, he just played through them. That's what irks me about him being a mentor, how could Gordon take Irvin seriously when he was partying his [inappropriate/removed] off (and tbf I'm completely assuming this but from what I remember this was the case) while in his prime on the cowboys? I get that he's cleaned up his act now but a much better candidate for mentorship of a young player who is struggling with drug abuse would be a player who was at the top of his game, got caught and then spiraled out of the league. Not someone who was doing coke off the lomardi trophy with troy aikman (although god damn that must have been a hell of a party) and managed to still go on and have a HOF career.


I see. I must have misunderstood you then (sorry). I now think you're saying that a better mentor would be someone that suffered more consequences than Irvin appears to have suffered--and overcome them.

I can't say I disagree with that at all. But I still think Irvin could be a good mentor. But I think you're right that there may be better ones. I'm just not sure who they are.
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duke2056


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have never understood why someone would be a good mentor (better than someone else) when they had gone through problems in the past.

I mean, Gordon could easily look at him and say "hey, he did all this stuff and turned out fine, I can, too".

I don't see why a guy like Irvin would be better to mentor him than someone else who never had problems like this as a player.

I mean, not saying Irvin WOULDN'T help at all, but I can't help but think better mentors would be people who actually did the right things.
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duke2056 wrote:
I have never understood why someone would be a good mentor (better than someone else) when they had gone through problems in the past.

I mean, Gordon could easily look at him and say "hey, he did all this stuff and turned out fine, I can, too".

I don't see why a guy like Irvin would be better to mentor him than someone else who never had problems like this as a player.

I mean, not saying Irvin WOULDN'T help at all, but I can't help but think better mentors would be people who actually did the right things.


If your goal is to never do anything wrong, then you might be best served with a mentor who has never done anything wrong.

If your goal is to change behavior that has gotten you into trouble, then it might be best to have a mentor that has successfully changed his behavior.
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MalcolmBrown


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
duke2056 wrote:
I have never understood why someone would be a good mentor (better than someone else) when they had gone through problems in the past.

I mean, Gordon could easily look at him and say "hey, he did all this stuff and turned out fine, I can, too".

I don't see why a guy like Irvin would be better to mentor him than someone else who never had problems like this as a player.

I mean, not saying Irvin WOULDN'T help at all, but I can't help but think better mentors would be people who actually did the right things.


If your goal is to never do anything wrong, then you might be best served with a mentor who has never done anything wrong.

If your goal is to change behavior that has gotten you into trouble, then it might be best to have a mentor that has successfully changed his behavior.



QFMFT
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MalcolmBrown


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also I was looking here to confirm that Josh Gordon was still only suspended for 2 games. I'm not sure if they keep saying it on accident in the news outlets/radio, but they say 4 games and never correct themselves, even tho it sounds like they aren't so sure, because a 2 game suspension is unusual in these days of the NFL, esp since J.Haden got 4 games last year.
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Last edited by MalcolmBrown on Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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ReggieCamp


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MalcolmBrown wrote:
Also I was looking here to confirm that Josh Gordon was still only suspended for 2 games. I'm not sure if they keep saying it on accident in the news outlets/radio, but they say 4 games and never correct themselves, even tho it sounds like they aren't so sure, because a 2 game suspension is unusual in these days of the NFL, esp since J.Haden got 4 games last year.

Everything I've seen says 2 games.

Since the league doesn't publish firm standards for their punishments, all we can do is connect the dots, but.... it seems like the 2-game suspensions come from recreational drugs (pot, codeine, whatever), and the 4-game suspensions come from PED's (steroids, speed, etc.).
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buno67


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is being suspended 2 games but it being fined 4 games checks.
That could be where you are hearing 4 from
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MalcolmBrown


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
He is being suspended 2 games but it being fined 4 games checks.
That could be where you are hearing 4 from



No, they keep saying 4 game suspension, I think that might be part of what they are confused about though, with the lack of clarity on the suspensions, and if he is losing 4 game checks instead of 2.
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nugpimpen


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MalcolmBrown wrote:
buno67 wrote:
He is being suspended 2 games but it being fined 4 games checks.
That could be where you are hearing 4 from



No, they keep saying 4 game suspension, I think that might be part of what they are confused about though, with the lack of clarity on the suspensions, and if he is losing 4 game checks instead of 2.


Not sure where you are seeing 4 games
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buno67


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nugpimpen wrote:
MalcolmBrown wrote:
buno67 wrote:
He is being suspended 2 games but it being fined 4 games checks.
That could be where you are hearing 4 from



No, they keep saying 4 game suspension, I think that might be part of what they are confused about though, with the lack of clarity on the suspensions, and if he is losing 4 game checks instead of 2.


Not sure where you are seeing 4 games


yeah I havent heard anything about him getting suspended for four games, its always been two
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MalcolmBrown


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buno67 wrote:
nugpimpen wrote:
MalcolmBrown wrote:
buno67 wrote:
He is being suspended 2 games but it being fined 4 games checks.
That could be where you are hearing 4 from



No, they keep saying 4 game suspension, I think that might be part of what they are confused about though, with the lack of clarity on the suspensions, and if he is losing 4 game checks instead of 2.


Not sure where you are seeing 4 games


yeah I havent heard anything about him getting suspended for four games, its always been two


I heard SVP say it the other day on ESPN Radio when he was talking about his top five fan bases/bottom 5 for 2013. I heard it on CBS Sports Radio in the program with Linda Cohn and Tiki. I also heard it on the Herd a couple weeks ago. As well, I'm sure it was in an AFC North Blog recently from Jamison Hensley (I hate that guy). If i get a chance to do some digging I'll see if I can find it.

Regardless, I heard multiple ppl say it. I was just asking to make sure that it was only 2 games.
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