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Nodisrespect


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 3575
Location: in the present
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
I'm not a big Pryor fan other than he plays for the Raiders.
You can see he has an good arm. His problem is that his footwork is terrible and he rainbows passes them which makes him inaccurate and late getting the football to the WR.

The notion that you can't improve accuracy or arm strength isn't really true. Pryor didn't come from a passing offense where the coach would hone his passing skills. He was never redshirted or even played 4 years of college football. He's still very raw.


Name me one QB who was inaccurate in college and through floating balls that dramatically changed his game in the pros.


Steve McNair?


Steve earned the moniker "Air-McNair" in college where he lit up the boxscore.
Soph 1992 3,541 passing 29 TDs
Jr. 1993 3,000+ passing 30 TDs
Senior 1994 6,000 combined 53 total TDs
Set career records in FCS total yards.

The issue of developing QB accuracy has been hotly debated recently mainly because of the Tebow-mania phenomenon. Pundits desperately want Tebow to succeed and a market has been created for QB gurus selling the magical elixir to fix Tebow's woes.

The facts are that anyone would be HARD pressed to find an inaccurate college QB that significantly improved his accuracy at the professional level. As athletes improve, coverages are disguised better and schemes are more complex it's reasonable to expect that a college QB's accuracy will slip a bit in the pros, not the inverse. It's like struggling with Algebra and then being thrown into Calculus. The odds of success are exponentially low.

Pryor isn't going to "develop" accuracy. I believe what Pryor fans are wishing for is a scheme to hide his deficiencies and accentuate his strengths (a la John Fox's Tebow offense). It's feasibly possible to build the offense around Pryor but not gonna happen because it's not a vision that McKenzie or Allen believes in. Pryor as a conventional QB is a pipe dream. Those are two opposing points of view that are set on a crash course and Raider Nation has to prepare for what's eminent.


How about Joe Montana go look up his college stats/accuracy. Laughing
http://www.totalfootballstats.com/PlayerQB.asp?id=2790

And he turned out ok I guess.


I looked up Montana's scouting report.
Quote:

Before the 1979 draft, one scouting combine rated Montana a 6½ (out of 9). The report said: "He can thread the needle, but usually goes with his primary receiver and forces the ball to him even when he's in a crowd. He's a gutty, gambling, cocky type. Doesn't have great tools, but could eventually start."


http://espn.go.com/classic/s/000729montanaadd.html

He can thread the needle is the part that matters, it suggests decision making is the issue not accuracy.

You skipped over the doesn't have great tools and the accuracy percentage.

And ok you read Joe Montana's scouting report but you obviously haven't read Terrelle Pryor's, I can't find two examples on the internet of a scout claiming he didn't have an at least adequate arm.

And I'm not saying Pryor is Joe cool but Joe cool wasn't Joe cool either at first. He had to hone his skills and he improved as nearly all good and great players have, players develop or else the draft wouldn't be such a big deal.

Pryor will have to prove it on the field nothing I say can make him play better or win more games for us, I will just sit back and enjoy the journey and laugh at all the Nostradamus descendants.

Go Raiders.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5478
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nodisrespect wrote:
And if Andrew luck doesn't improve his accuracy he will be a bust too. Hopefully he does as everyone thinks he will......if it's possible.


Luck is not inaccurate he needs to improve his decision making. It becomes ever so clear that we cannot distinguish between the two and it's the reason people think you can "develop" accuracy. Of course Pryor's decision making will improve with reps but his ability to get the ball there on time, with velocity and placement will only marginally improve. Pryor could be more viable by changing the offense to a non-traditional set.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nodisrespect wrote:

You skipped over the doesn't have great tools and the accuracy percentage.

And ok you read Joe Montana's scouting report but you obviously haven't read Terrelle Pryor's, I can't find two examples on the internet of a scout claiming he didn't have an at least adequate arm.

And I'm not saying Pryor is Joe cool but Joe cool wasn't Joe cool either at first. He had to hone his skills and he improved as nearly all good and great players have, players develop or else the draft wouldn't be such a big deal.

Pryor will have to prove it on the field nothing I say can make him play better or win more games for us, I will just sit back and enjoy the journey and laugh at all the Nostradamus descendants.

Go Raiders.


No one is questioning Pryor's arm strength. . . .
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Ro4DPoY


Joined: 12 Jul 2010
Posts: 549
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
raidr4life wrote:
Love this post. I was never a huge Pryor fan, but the hate was so overwhelming I just started defending the guy, because like you said some people want to force their opinion on others, I want to see for myself. This offseason he's getting more reps than he has ever had and gets to compete, now lets see where he ends up when it's all said and done.


Round and round we go . . .

Pryor fan saying "I'm not a Pryor fan I just want to see him him play" is a straight cop out. If this were an unbias opinion the same could be said for Wilson yet NO ONE is saying "I can't wait to see Wilson in action".

There is a SERIOUS disconnect about the ability to "develop" accuracy. The person who believes accuracy CAN be developed will never accept that it can't despite the fact it's extremely difficult to find a real time example. Before labeling the ability to develop accuracy as thinly veiled Pryor hate why not counter with examples of how Pryor's accuracy can be increased by citing QBs that have done it. Fwiw, one doesn't get it done. There should be a few at least.

"I just want to see for myself" is also a cop out. You won't GET to see Pryor in significant action until Pryor gets it done in practice consistently. The most consistent QB in practice will get the nod. So YES, as of right now the Raiders are in trouble regardless of who starts because consistency has been elusive.


I wouldn't mind Wilson eventually starting I just want him to be a viable option, which is what I want from whoever is the starter regardless as to who it is and I could care less about accuracy if he throws TD's and minimal INT's.

As for the whole accuracy thing, Brees for example has had his accuracy from his first four seasons after 2001 average 62% while his last 4 years he's averaged 68%. I understand he was pretty accurate to begin with but i'd consider that as developing accuracy. It may be the difference as to how the games played but saying that accuracy isn't developed just doesn't make sense.

As for other examples Peyton Manning went from 61% to 67% when comparing his first four years to his last 4 years, Brady a little less went from 61% to 64%, Eli Manning went from 56% to 61%, Romo went up 3%.

To argue that accuracy isn't developed you can cite Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, and Matt Schaub which all have either been erratic or have somehow regressed. A side note is Roethlisberger's most INT's were in his first three seasons which was 23 and hasn't throw more than 14 in the last 3 seasons.

So yeah I believe QB's accuracy can be developed or continue to develop. I just looked up Rodgers too who has only played 5 full seasons he's roughly gone up 4% as well.
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Django


Joined: 03 May 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Django wrote:

While I agree "Pryor fans" can be annoying. Isnt a bit unfair to say at the moment "he's 3rd string at best"

When he's clearly getting the 2nd most reps and even has his days better than the presumed starter? I NEVER heard anything about Tebow doing something positive in practice...and to be quite honest...never heard it about Pryor until now. Maybe its fool's gold. Maybe's gotten somewhat better.

Tough to tell. But I cant wait to judge for myself this preseason.

I think he can be a solid backup.


A little obtuse? You are a Pryor fan and that's fine.

Best pass of the day turns into "has better days than the presumed starter". "Open competition" turns into Pryor and Palmer are neck and neck but in reality the Raiders go right out and trade for Flynn and draft Wilson. Control is Pryor's issue that doesn't mean he isn't capable of an accurate pass here and there.


I'm judging off of what the guys who see him. When they say he's terrible....we accept that as fact too dont we? Why cant we believe when they say a practice in June he was better than Matt Flynn?

Also I'm not a "Pryor fan"

I just dont rag on players and determine their future without letting it play off.

I would call being objective if anything. Just as anyone who thinks Pryor wont be good in the NFL......I dont accuse them of being a "Pryor hater" if they are making solid points...
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep checking this thread for OTA news and all I see page after page is more Pryor argument garbage. It's genuinely ruining just about every thread on the forum. Someone start a Pryor pissing and moaning thread in the hopes of cleaning everything else up.
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S&B Bleeder


Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 1155
Location: SoCal
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Keep checking this thread for OTA news and all I see page after page is more Pryor argument garbage. It's genuinely ruining just about every thread on the forum. Someone start a Pryor pissing and moaning thread in the hopes of cleaning everything else up.

He's right.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5478
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ro4DPoY wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
raidr4life wrote:
Love this post. I was never a huge Pryor fan, but the hate was so overwhelming I just started defending the guy, because like you said some people want to force their opinion on others, I want to see for myself. This offseason he's getting more reps than he has ever had and gets to compete, now lets see where he ends up when it's all said and done.


Round and round we go . . .

Pryor fan saying "I'm not a Pryor fan I just want to see him him play" is a straight cop out. If this were an unbias opinion the same could be said for Wilson yet NO ONE is saying "I can't wait to see Wilson in action".

There is a SERIOUS disconnect about the ability to "develop" accuracy. The person who believes accuracy CAN be developed will never accept that it can't despite the fact it's extremely difficult to find a real time example. Before labeling the ability to develop accuracy as thinly veiled Pryor hate why not counter with examples of how Pryor's accuracy can be increased by citing QBs that have done it. Fwiw, one doesn't get it done. There should be a few at least.

"I just want to see for myself" is also a cop out. You won't GET to see Pryor in significant action until Pryor gets it done in practice consistently. The most consistent QB in practice will get the nod. So YES, as of right now the Raiders are in trouble regardless of who starts because consistency has been elusive.


I wouldn't mind Wilson eventually starting I just want him to be a viable option, which is what I want from whoever is the starter regardless as to who it is and I could care less about accuracy if he throws TD's and minimal INT's.

As for the whole accuracy thing, Brees for example has had his accuracy from his first four seasons after 2001 average 62% while his last 4 years he's averaged 68%. I understand he was pretty accurate to begin with but i'd consider that as developing accuracy. It may be the difference as to how the games played but saying that accuracy isn't developed just doesn't make sense.

As for other examples Peyton Manning went from 61% to 67% when comparing his first four years to his last 4 years, Brady a little less went from 61% to 64%, Eli Manning went from 56% to 61%, Romo went up 3%.

To argue that accuracy isn't developed you can cite Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, and Matt Schaub which all have either been erratic or have somehow regressed. A side note is Roethlisberger's most INT's were in his first three seasons which was 23 and hasn't throw more than 14 in the last 3 seasons.

So yeah I believe QB's accuracy can be developed or continue to develop. I just looked up Rodgers too who has only played 5 full seasons he's roughly gone up 4% as well.


You are attempting to change the comparison. We have clearly been discussion COLLEGE QBs how have been deemed as inaccurate being able to find accuracy at the professional level. It's part of denial, change the argument to fit your narrative.

The traditional pocket passers you listed were already considered accurate and only needed to improve their decision making to increase their completion percentage. Completion percentage isn't the only criteria by which to judge accuracy. The consensus on Pryor isn't questioning his arm strength it's his ability to make all the required throws consistently.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5478
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

S&B Bleeder wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Keep checking this thread for OTA news and all I see page after page is more Pryor argument garbage. It's genuinely ruining just about every thread on the forum. Someone start a Pryor pissing and moaning thread in the hopes of cleaning everything else up.

He's right.


My apologies. I don't usually get involved with Pryor mania but this is why Pryor is a distraction. Every conversation eventually returns to him.
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Mancrush 2014: DE Clowney, WR Watkins, OT Robinson, LB Shazier, FS Brooks, TE ASJ, OG Jackson, WR Janis, OT Lucas, OT Tiny
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Ro4DPoY


Joined: 12 Jul 2010
Posts: 549
Location: VA
PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
S&B Bleeder wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Keep checking this thread for OTA news and all I see page after page is more Pryor argument garbage. It's genuinely ruining just about every thread on the forum. Someone start a Pryor pissing and moaning thread in the hopes of cleaning everything else up.

He's right.


My apologies. I don't usually get involved with Pryor mania but this is why Pryor is a distraction. Every conversation eventually returns to him.


Made an official Pryor thread.

For those looking for interesting articles about the Raiders or news for that matter heres a link to get us back to OTA's and our hopes for next season

http://goldengatesports.com/2013/06/16/oakland-raiders-is-phillip-adams-a-rising-star/
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Cody Hoffman is the best wr in this draft. Write it down take a pic idgaf


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Tacos


Joined: 13 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
And if Andrew luck doesn't improve his accuracy he will be a bust too. Hopefully he does as everyone thinks he will......if it's possible.


Luck is not inaccurate he needs to improve his decision making. It becomes ever so clear that we cannot distinguish between the two and it's the reason people think you can "develop" accuracy. Of course Pryor's decision making will improve with reps but his ability to get the ball there on time, with velocity and placement will only marginally improve. Pryor could be more viable by changing the offense to a non-traditional set.
Luck also played under Bruce Arians in a high risk high reward offense. Now, I didn't watch all their games, barely any, so I don't know how good or bad Luck is but it's something to take into account.
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Nodisrespect


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tacos wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
And if Andrew luck doesn't improve his accuracy he will be a bust too. Hopefully he does as everyone thinks he will......if it's possible.


Luck is not inaccurate he needs to improve his decision making. It becomes ever so clear that we cannot distinguish between the two and it's the reason people think you can "develop" accuracy. Of course Pryor's decision making will improve with reps but his ability to get the ball there on time, with velocity and placement will only marginally improve. Pryor could be more viable by changing the offense to a non-traditional set.
Luck also played under Bruce Arians in a high risk high reward offense. Now, I didn't watch all their games, barely any, so I don't know how good or bad Luck is but it's something to take into account.


Well I was using completion as the main statistic but the goal post was moved. And I agree with you on arians but 54% is still looks pretty bad.
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Darbsk


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ro4DPoY wrote:
I wouldn't mind Wilson eventually starting I just want him to be a viable option, which is what I want from whoever is the starter regardless as to who it is and I could care less about accuracy if he throws TD's and minimal INT's.

As for the whole accuracy thing, Brees for example has had his accuracy from his first four seasons after 2001 average 62% while his last 4 years he's averaged 68%. I understand he was pretty accurate to begin with but i'd consider that as developing accuracy. It may be the difference as to how the games played but saying that accuracy isn't developed just doesn't make sense.

As for other examples Peyton Manning went from 61% to 67% when comparing his first four years to his last 4 years, Brady a little less went from 61% to 64%, Eli Manning went from 56% to 61%, Romo went up 3%.

To argue that accuracy isn't developed you can cite Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, and Matt Schaub which all have either been erratic or have somehow regressed. A side note is Roethlisberger's most INT's were in his first three seasons which was 23 and hasn't throw more than 14 in the last 3 seasons.

So yeah I believe QB's accuracy can be developed or continue to develop. I just looked up Rodgers too who has only played 5 full seasons he's roughly gone up 4% as well.


This seems like good logic, but the problem is you're talking about completion percentages not accuracy percentages. Totally different thing.

Imaging a QB playing 2 identical plays, first one he sets his feet, lobs up a deep bomb with decent accuracy, leading the receiver nicely. The receiver chasing the ball is Calvin Johnson. Now imagine the exact same play but with Khalif Barnes and Kwame Harris at OT and DHB chasing the ball down. What are the odds of the QB even getting his feet set before he throws and even if he does what are the odds of DHB following the ball in flight and making a successful over the shoulder grab??

The point being that completon percentage is hugely reliant on the QB having time to set his feet - relying on OL protection, having a reciever run the correct route, having the receivers ability to locate and catch the ball, the system that is being used - for example a dink and dunk Brady type system is more completion % friendly than a deep ball aggressive Al Davis style system. There are literally hundres of things that determine completion percentage, one of the main ones as Baggabonez has pointed out being QB decision making.

Hopefully all our 3 QBs improve and challenge, there are justified concerns with Pryor as there are with the other 2. I'm sure Reggie and DA are not so stubborn as to not play Pryor if he shows he genuinely is the best QB. I trust Reggia and DA to put the best QB out there. If one of the younger guys improve and succeed then great, I will suppport whoever starts.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nodisrespect wrote:
Tacos wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
And if Andrew luck doesn't improve his accuracy he will be a bust too. Hopefully he does as everyone thinks he will......if it's possible.


Luck is not inaccurate he needs to improve his decision making. It becomes ever so clear that we cannot distinguish between the two and it's the reason people think you can "develop" accuracy. Of course Pryor's decision making will improve with reps but his ability to get the ball there on time, with velocity and placement will only marginally improve. Pryor could be more viable by changing the offense to a non-traditional set.
Luck also played under Bruce Arians in a high risk high reward offense. Now, I didn't watch all their games, barely any, so I don't know how good or bad Luck is but it's something to take into account.


Well I was using completion as the main statistic but the goal post was moved. And I agree with you on arians but 54% is still looks pretty bad.


I saw a few games and Reggie Wayne was making circus catches all game.
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love it when people say "he only completed 54% of his passes, that's *insert negative remark*". That's blindly putting faith into a number and is an very dumb way to get a point across. Not calling the poster dumb but the means of basing an argument on. We have no idea how many drops there were and missed routes among many other things plus, the dude was a rookie on a team that won 2 games the prior season.

Talk about excessive expectations. Sheesh LOL.
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