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Duffman57


Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: DC Next Year Reply with quote

Do you guys think/want Pagano (to) stay as the Defensive coordinator, after he struggled with a defense, though extremely talent deficient, and with lots of injuries. If you think he should be replaces, who do you think are some good, and obtainable guys to replace him?
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JammerHammer21


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. I do not want him.

My top choices:

Karl Dunbar
Rocky Seto/Ken Norton
Bob Diaco
Jim Tomsula
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Boltstrikes


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want out of the 3-4 and into a 4-3 under but Pagano isn't a bad coach. We lack a pass rusher that can win 1 on 1 and corners that can cover 1 on 1. Doesn't really matter what defense you run when the talent level is that low.

Staying in a 3-4 lacking OLB's, a NT or corners that can cover/tackle is a recipe for disaster though.
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boltstrikes wrote:
I want out of the 3-4 and into a 4-3 under but Pagano isn't a bad coach. We lack a pass rusher that can win 1 on 1 and corners that can cover 1 on 1. Doesn't really matter what defense you run when the talent level is that low.

Staying in a 3-4 lacking OLB's, a NT or corners that can cover/tackle is a recipe for disaster though.


I hate when people say this....we run essentially the same thing.

Almost anybody with a 3-4 D (with the exception of Pitt) runs a 1 gap 3-4 (including us), which is a couple of VERY minor shading differences with the ILB's (or Will and Mike LB depending on who you ask) from a 43 Under. We do have a lot of 4-3 Under looks in our defense. But the 4-3 Under just as much as the 3-4 revolves on having a great pass rusher at that Rush Backer (or whatever name you give the damn thing, theres about 10 different names for it), for a good pass defense.

Staying in any defense without a pass rush, good run defending DT's or corners that can cover is a disaster. You act like that would be any different in a 43 if we kept the same talent.....
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Boltstrikes


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finding a pass rusher from DE is easier then OLB. It might be almost the same thing but it isn't the same thing. Cam Thomas doesn't have the NT skills but as a DT, it would get better.
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boltstrikes wrote:
Finding a pass rusher from DE is easier then OLB. It might be almost the same thing but it isn't the same thing. Cam Thomas doesn't have the NT skills but as a DT, it would get better.


He would be playing the same role he is now, as a 1T DT. Just as Liuget will still be a 3T, who at times flexes out to the 5T at times. The Rush LB is the exact same in both schemes....lol. Its not like the difference between JPP and Ware. Its the exact same Clemons is the same exact position as any 3-4 SOLB.
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JammerHammer21


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DE pass rushers are not easier to find. You need some who is big but still agile. Lots of smaller OLBs can have success at pass rushing they wouldn't have in a 4-3.

Cam is a FA after the season I believe, and I can't see him resigning for anything more than close to vet minimum.
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Neutral


Joined: 08 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Re: DC Next Year Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
Do you guys think/want Pagano (to) stay as the Defensive coordinator, after he struggled with a defense, though extremely talent deficient, and with lots of injuries. If you think he should be replaces, who do you think are some good, and obtainable guys to replace him?


...is it that talent deficient?

The thing is, this year our whole defense regressed. Even our supposedly proven players are struggling. Liuget and Reyes aren't winning their 1-on-1 battles, Butler looks like garbage when healthy, Cox is nothing like the player he was in Jacksonville, and even Weddle has been missing tackles this year. It's just too suspicious for me to blame it on the players. There has to be a common denominator, and that's what makes me wonder just what a (negative) impact Pagano is having on this young defense.
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Durandal1707


Joined: 08 May 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted Pagano gone since the debacle on MNF against Denver last year. I know a lot of AJ Smith's defensive drafting hasn't panned out, but Pagano's coaching is putrid. The corners give way too big of cushions and the pass rush in both years he's coached the team has been absolutely godawful. The team has been blowing leads worse the last two years than anytime since the mid 80's Chargers teams. It's true he doesn't have a lot of talent to work with, but still.

As for which defensive alignment to run, it doesn't really matter if you can't pressure the QB or actually cover anybody. The defensive line has been mediocre at best this season, especially Cam Thomas.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want someone willing to be aggressive. We have (they're getting there and with another offseason the last tweaks should be in place) an offense that can both maintain time of possession advantage and effectively move the ball on just about anyone - so the necessity to play bend-but-don't-break isn't really there. Ginger-stepping around on defense is exactly what our own offense capitalizes on from opposing defenses - so it seems hypocritical, for lack of a better word, that we deploy that exact same defensive philosophy ourselves.

Ray Horton is who should have been the hire, had Spanos not been so hellbent on having Pagano kept by whatever HC he hired (once again the Spanos family sticking their noses into football affairs unnecessarily when they hire more knowledgeable people to do that stuff for them). With him not the option, I'd still like to see Tomsula - and he might be willing to consider a DC position if he gets glossed over for HC interviews again this upcoming offseason (give him something more to his calling card). If anyone remembers the NFL Europe, Tomsula's Rhein Fire defenses were something to behold in terms of all-out aggression.

If Kubiak gets canned in Houston (possibility) and they clean house, I wouldn't be opposed to bringing Wade back, though I'm not sure he'd come. Darren Perry's an intriguing option. And my wild card, though highly doubtful (hence why I can't call him a sleeper) is still Peter Hansen (who is Vic Fangio's right-hand man and knows Fangio's scheme as well as he does).
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Duffman57


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
I just want someone willing to be aggressive. We have (they're getting there and with another offseason the last tweaks should be in place) an offense that can both maintain time of possession advantage and effectively move the ball on just about anyone - so the necessity to play bend-but-don't-break isn't really there. Ginger-stepping around on defense is exactly what our own offense capitalizes on from opposing defenses - so it seems hypocritical, for lack of a better word, that we deploy that exact same defensive philosophy ourselves.

Ray Horton is who should have been the hire, had Spanos not been so hellbent on having Pagano kept by whatever HC he hired (once again the Spanos family sticking their noses into football affairs unnecessarily when they hire more knowledgeable people to do that stuff for them). With him not the option, I'd still like to see Tomsula - and he might be willing to consider a DC position if he gets glossed over for HC interviews again this upcoming offseason (give him something more to his calling card). If anyone remembers the NFL Europe, Tomsula's Rhein Fire defenses were something to behold in terms of all-out aggression.

If Kubiak gets canned in Houston (possibility) and they clean house, I wouldn't be opposed to bringing Wade back, though I'm not sure he'd come. Darren Perry's an intriguing option. And my wild card, though highly doubtful (hence why I can't call him a sleeper) is still Peter Hansen (who is Vic Fangio's right-hand man and knows Fangio's scheme as well as he does).


What about Rocky Seto and Karl Dunbar? I've heard you talk about Seto before, and there was come guys over on the CMB that were talking about Dunbar.

I was just curious, for coaches, are you looking at similar things you do for in GM's. Basically, who they learned under, how they're scheme was, and they're reputation as a coach (obviously its an easy one if they have DC experience already, ala Wade)? Or is it something different.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duffman57 wrote:
The LBC wrote:
I just want someone willing to be aggressive. We have (they're getting there and with another offseason the last tweaks should be in place) an offense that can both maintain time of possession advantage and effectively move the ball on just about anyone - so the necessity to play bend-but-don't-break isn't really there. Ginger-stepping around on defense is exactly what our own offense capitalizes on from opposing defenses - so it seems hypocritical, for lack of a better word, that we deploy that exact same defensive philosophy ourselves.

Ray Horton is who should have been the hire, had Spanos not been so hellbent on having Pagano kept by whatever HC he hired (once again the Spanos family sticking their noses into football affairs unnecessarily when they hire more knowledgeable people to do that stuff for them). With him not the option, I'd still like to see Tomsula - and he might be willing to consider a DC position if he gets glossed over for HC interviews again this upcoming offseason (give him something more to his calling card). If anyone remembers the NFL Europe, Tomsula's Rhein Fire defenses were something to behold in terms of all-out aggression.

If Kubiak gets canned in Houston (possibility) and they clean house, I wouldn't be opposed to bringing Wade back, though I'm not sure he'd come. Darren Perry's an intriguing option. And my wild card, though highly doubtful (hence why I can't call him a sleeper) is still Peter Hansen (who is Vic Fangio's right-hand man and knows Fangio's scheme as well as he does).


What about Rocky Seto and Karl Dunbar? I've heard you talk about Seto before, and there was come guys over on the CMB that were talking about Dunbar.

I was just curious, for coaches, are you looking at similar things you do for in GM's. Basically, who they learned under, how they're scheme was, and they're reputation as a coach (obviously its an easy one if they have DC experience already, ala Wade)? Or is it something different.

What I look at is a combination of who they cut their teeth under as coaches (because very, very rarely do you find a guy who is innovative enough that he can sit down and design his own scheme and playbook - they apprentice at the side of and learn from someone already established) - and then where they've worked previously outside the pro's and what their responsibilities were while there (typically coaching high school isn't going to be very telling, but experience and results coaching at just about an college program can be telling in some fashion - and it doesn't have to be a big program... I mean, Chip Kelly came from coaching New Hampshire).

Specifically, Seto I do like, I think he's the Ray Horton/Keith Butler to Carroll's Lebeau. However, I'd be lying if I didn't say that I was a little put off when neither he (who knows the scheme Carroll runs as well as anyone on that staff) or Norton were given a bump or more actively involved in the defensive play-calling after Jacksonville hired Gus Bradley away. Pete went semi-outside the club to bring back Dan Quinn (his former DL coach) who had since acquired play-calling experience at Florida. It may be minor, but these kind of things can't be arbitrarily swept under the rug. And if the Mark Sanchez bit tells us anything, it's that Carroll is generally a straight shooter when giving his assessment as to whether someone is "ready for the next step" or not. Seto may not be there yet - be it from a play-calling perspective or, and this is also a concern I have because he's never coached away from Carroll, hands-on assembling a defensive coaching staff (he's young, so he's going to have that working against him in this regard).

Dunbar, I think, will make a great DC... however, he's strictly a 4-3 Cover-2 shell guy. He's a Leslie Frazier/Lovie Smith/Tony Dungy guy (much like Marinelli) who just happens to be coaching on a 3-4 team where the defense is truly led by Rex Ryan - who, frankly, doesn't have the time to mentor position coaches aspiring to move up the ladder, considering he's also the team's head coach. I like the coach, I'm not so sure I like the scheme fit for us - or the fact that he's a hard scheme guy who isn't likely to adopt the trend of multiple fronts and hybrid formations as an adjustment to not just in-game or opposing team threats but to exploiting deficiencies in the opposition and gaining advantages.

Reggie Herring is a Wade-alternative possibility as the Texans defense didn't seem to miss a beat when he subbed in for Wade in limited sample size. However, I'd almost just as soon get away from the not-Wade's that are trying to be Wade, because we've had a terrible track record with those so far (Manusky, Pagano, Cottrell) as none of them seem to have Wade's ego (and stones) and insist on falling back on "bend-but-don't-break" (play not to lose, rather than play to win) approaches.

A few outside-the-box names that I'm intrigued by, but in no way convinced they're ready for the NFL (however they develop talent like champs): Craig "Coach Kul" Kuligowski (Mizzou DL coach), Richie Hall (Saskatchewan Roughriders DC and known as the "toughest DC in the CFL"... and he's shorter than Woodhead!), Kevin Greene (NFL HOFer and Green Bay OLB's coach), Jim Leavitt (former K-State DC, former USF HC, current Niners LB coach), Clyde Simmons (Rams [inappropriate/removed]. DL coach under Waufle; likely nowhere near ready yet).
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Boltstrikes


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to at least interview Jim Leavitt from San Francisco. His resume is nice and he has put the immense talent the 9ers have at linebacker in position to succeed.
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MrDrew


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe we'll get lucky, and the new HC in Houston will want to bring his own guy. Wade can come home….
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boltstrikes wrote:
I'd like to at least interview Jim Leavitt from San Francisco. His resume is nice and he has put the immense talent the 9ers have at linebacker in position to succeed.

I'm actually more impressed with Leavitt's resume at K-State. He put together some stout defenses there when Kansas State wasn't exactly a sexy Big XII school to go to.
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