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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Am I alone in thinking that McCown's struggles in this game are being overlooked completely? All I've read is that he played great, quoting a bunch of stat sheet stuff, etc. He turned the ball over twice (once for a TD), had 2 other turnovers (one in the red zone) taken off the board by penalties on STL that were thin at best, and had a near 5th turnover on the batted screen pass at the end of the first half. He certainly did some good things but this was by far his worst of 3 starts even if the stats were the biggest.

When Jay puts up 350 yards and 2 TDs in a game where we get creamed all that gets talked about are his shortcomings in the game, and yet with McCown that isn't happening at all. It's all "Yeah, but...". It's a noteworthy double standard.


Cutler has only put up 350+ in one game this year (or in the last 3 seasons for that matter)…against the Saints where he completed 72.7% of his passes for 358 yards and two TDs with no INTs…I don’t think anyone had anything but praise for the guy…

The same as today where McCown set a franchise record for completions…went for 352 yards and completed 76.6% of his passes…2 TDs and 1 INT when the game was already well over…the sack fumble was a concern but when you watch the amount of times in the game he dodged getting sacked throughout the game it’s pretty clear he wasn’t the reason we lost this game.

Not suggesting that he was the reason we lost - he wasn't - but his shortcomings today are being completely overlooked where if Jay had played the exact same game today you know as well as I do that he'd be getting torched for them. That's a double standard, and people have been using McCown's play the past few weeks as the reason Jay shouldn't be getting paid like a big time QB and I think if you're going to use Josh largely as the standard by which Jay is being measured that you can't look the other way when he makes the same mistakes.
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Am I alone in thinking that McCown's struggles in this game are being overlooked completely? All I've read is that he played great, quoting a bunch of stat sheet stuff, etc. He turned the ball over twice (once for a TD), had 2 other turnovers (one in the red zone) taken off the board by penalties on STL that were thin at best, and had a near 5th turnover on the batted screen pass at the end of the first half. He certainly did some good things but this was by far his worst of 3 starts even if the stats were the biggest.

When Jay puts up 350 yards and 2 TDs in a game where we get creamed all that gets talked about are his shortcomings in the game, and yet with McCown that isn't happening at all. It's all "Yeah, but...". It's a noteworthy double standard.


Cutler has only put up 350+ in one game this year (or in the last 3 seasons for that matter)…against the Saints where he completed 72.7% of his passes for 358 yards and two TDs with no INTs…I don’t think anyone had anything but praise for the guy…

The same as today where McCown set a franchise record for completions…went for 352 yards and completed 76.6% of his passes…2 TDs and 1 INT when the game was already well over…the sack fumble was a concern but when you watch the amount of times in the game he dodged getting sacked throughout the game it’s pretty clear he wasn’t the reason we lost this game.

Not suggesting that he was the reason we lost - he wasn't - but his shortcomings today are being completely overlooked where if Jay had played the exact same game today you know as well as I do that he'd be getting torched for them. That's a double standard, and people have been using McCown's play the past few weeks as the reason Jay shouldn't be getting paid like a big time QB and I think if you're going to use Josh largely as the standard by which Jay is being measured that you can't look the other way when he makes the same mistakes.


I was not super impressed with Josh and you can see his lack or arm strength in the red zone when the field is tight.

But everything is going to be overlooked when you allow 10 yards per carry.

The late turnovers do not bother me as much because our back was broken by the Cunningham TD before that.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
What really bugs me is that the defense has slipped to totally non competitive.

I would excuse them with the injuries for being really bad and I would excuse them for some struggles.

But this is pathetic. Well beyond what I think is acceptable even for the injuries that have happened.


The thing is coming into today our pass D wasn’t that bad…we were 13th in passing yards allowed per game…

But we simply can’t stop the run especially straight up the middle given up and average of 145.2 YPG on the ground which is by far the worst in the NFL…which is about 45 YPG more than last season...I’ve said it before that as much as the back 7 haven’t played well I feel a little sorry for them...it’s tough for a LB to make a tackle when they have a 320lbs OG hitting them right from the get go…every great LB from Urlacher to Ray Lewis struggles with zero talent in front of them and that’s what we have right now…even as badly as the safeties are player it’s tough to stop an NFL running back who hasn’t been touched for the first 10 yards in space…we have to put everything else on the back burner this offseason until we get some Dline help.
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
What really bugs me is that the defense has slipped to totally non competitive.

I would excuse them with the injuries for being really bad and I would excuse them for some struggles.

But this is pathetic. Well beyond what I think is acceptable even for the injuries that have happened.


The thing is coming into today our pass D wasn’t that bad…we were 13th in passing yards allowed per game…

But we simply can’t stop the run especially straight up the middle given up and average of 145.2 YPG on the ground which is by far the worst in the NFL…which is about 45 YPG more than last season...I’ve said it before that as much as the back 7 haven’t played well I feel a little sorry for them...it’s tough for a LB to make a tackle when they have a 320lbs OG hitting them right from the get go…every great LB from Urlacher to Ray Lewis struggles with zero talent in front of them and that’s what we have right now…even as badly as the safeties are player it’s tough to stop an NFL running back who hasn’t been touched for the first 10 yards in space…we have to put everything else on the back burner this offseason until we get some Dline help.


I know there are reasons. And the injuries are good ones.

But part of run blocking and run defense is effort and intensity. Part of it is for compete level and we are not competing.

The defense could be bad, but this is beyond what is excusable.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Am I alone in thinking that McCown's struggles in this game are being overlooked completely? All I've read is that he played great, quoting a bunch of stat sheet stuff, etc. He turned the ball over twice (once for a TD), had 2 other turnovers (one in the red zone) taken off the board by penalties on STL that were thin at best, and had a near 5th turnover on the batted screen pass at the end of the first half. He certainly did some good things but this was by far his worst of 3 starts even if the stats were the biggest.

When Jay puts up 350 yards and 2 TDs in a game where we get creamed all that gets talked about are his shortcomings in the game, and yet with McCown that isn't happening at all. It's all "Yeah, but...". It's a noteworthy double standard.


Cutler has only put up 350+ in one game this year (or in the last 3 seasons for that matter)…against the Saints where he completed 72.7% of his passes for 358 yards and two TDs with no INTs…I don’t think anyone had anything but praise for the guy…

The same as today where McCown set a franchise record for completions…went for 352 yards and completed 76.6% of his passes…2 TDs and 1 INT when the game was already well over…the sack fumble was a concern but when you watch the amount of times in the game he dodged getting sacked throughout the game it’s pretty clear he wasn’t the reason we lost this game.

Not suggesting that he was the reason we lost - he wasn't - but his shortcomings today are being completely overlooked where if Jay had played the exact same game today you know as well as I do that he'd be getting torched for them. That's a double standard, and people have been using McCown's play the past few weeks as the reason Jay shouldn't be getting paid like a big time QB and I think if you're going to use Josh largely as the standard by which Jay is being measured that you can't look the other way when he makes the same mistakes.


I honestly don’t agree with that…if your QB is completing 76.6% of his passes…he’s thrown for over 350 yards…two TDs and that one INT comes in desperation time on a contested ball and not a lame duck I don’t see how you can have a problem with that level of play…I don’t see how anyone could say anything negative about Cutler had he produced that performance.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
What really bugs me is that the defense has slipped to totally non competitive.

I would excuse them with the injuries for being really bad and I would excuse them for some struggles.

But this is pathetic. Well beyond what I think is acceptable even for the injuries that have happened.

75 rush, 266 yards allowed the first 3 weeks before Melton went out (3.55 ypc, 88.7 ypg)
250 rush, 1333 yards allowed since (5.33 ypc, 166.6 ypg)

Worth noting, and the numbers are only worse since Briggs went out. It can't be underrated that he was the guy getting the defense lined up and that we are sorely missing that right now. Guys have been out of position far more often since he went down.
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Madmike90


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
What really bugs me is that the defense has slipped to totally non competitive.

I would excuse them with the injuries for being really bad and I would excuse them for some struggles.

But this is pathetic. Well beyond what I think is acceptable even for the injuries that have happened.


The thing is coming into today our pass D wasn’t that bad…we were 13th in passing yards allowed per game…

But we simply can’t stop the run especially straight up the middle given up and average of 145.2 YPG on the ground which is by far the worst in the NFL…which is about 45 YPG more than last season...I’ve said it before that as much as the back 7 haven’t played well I feel a little sorry for them...it’s tough for a LB to make a tackle when they have a 320lbs OG hitting them right from the get go…every great LB from Urlacher to Ray Lewis struggles with zero talent in front of them and that’s what we have right now…even as badly as the safeties are player it’s tough to stop an NFL running back who hasn’t been touched for the first 10 yards in space…we have to put everything else on the back burner this offseason until we get some Dline help.


I know there are reasons. And the injuries are good ones.

But part of run blocking and run defense is effort and intensity. Part of it is for compete level and we are not competing.

The defense could be bad, but this is beyond what is excusable.


Agreed but a bigger part is physical ability...and right now these guys just don't have that...we are being bullied inside and every team knows they can do it with ease.
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WindyCity


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
What really bugs me is that the defense has slipped to totally non competitive.

I would excuse them with the injuries for being really bad and I would excuse them for some struggles.

But this is pathetic. Well beyond what I think is acceptable even for the injuries that have happened.

75 rush, 266 yards allowed the first 3 weeks before Melton went out (3.55 ypc, 88.7 ypg)
250 rush, 1333 yards allowed since (5.33 ypc, 166.6 ypg)

Worth noting, and the numbers are only worse since Briggs went out. It can't be underrated that he was the guy getting the defense lined up and that we are sorely missing that right now. Guys have been out of position far more often since he went down.


Agreed the injuries are a factor.

They do not have an excuse to be this bad. They are allowing close to 200 yards a game over the last 3 games.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
Am I alone in thinking that McCown's struggles in this game are being overlooked completely? All I've read is that he played great, quoting a bunch of stat sheet stuff, etc. He turned the ball over twice (once for a TD), had 2 other turnovers (one in the red zone) taken off the board by penalties on STL that were thin at best, and had a near 5th turnover on the batted screen pass at the end of the first half. He certainly did some good things but this was by far his worst of 3 starts even if the stats were the biggest.

When Jay puts up 350 yards and 2 TDs in a game where we get creamed all that gets talked about are his shortcomings in the game, and yet with McCown that isn't happening at all. It's all "Yeah, but...". It's a noteworthy double standard.


Cutler has only put up 350+ in one game this year (or in the last 3 seasons for that matter)…against the Saints where he completed 72.7% of his passes for 358 yards and two TDs with no INTs…I don’t think anyone had anything but praise for the guy…

The same as today where McCown set a franchise record for completions…went for 352 yards and completed 76.6% of his passes…2 TDs and 1 INT when the game was already well over…the sack fumble was a concern but when you watch the amount of times in the game he dodged getting sacked throughout the game it’s pretty clear he wasn’t the reason we lost this game.

Not suggesting that he was the reason we lost - he wasn't - but his shortcomings today are being completely overlooked where if Jay had played the exact same game today you know as well as I do that he'd be getting torched for them. That's a double standard, and people have been using McCown's play the past few weeks as the reason Jay shouldn't be getting paid like a big time QB and I think if you're going to use Josh largely as the standard by which Jay is being measured that you can't look the other way when he makes the same mistakes.


I honestly don’t agree with that…if your QB is completing 76.6% of his passes…he’s thrown for over 350 yards…two TDs and that one INT comes in desperation time on a contested ball and not a lame duck I don’t see how you can have a problem with that level of play…I don’t see how anyone could say anything negative about Cutler had he produced that performance.

There shouldn't be I agree, but we both know it doesn't work that way with Jay, and that comes with being the franchise QB, but that doesn't mean McCown should be seemingly above criticism like he is right now. That's the point I'm trying to make.
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ForteOz


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
Am I alone in thinking that McCown's struggles in this game are being overlooked completely? All I've read is that he played great, quoting a bunch of stat sheet stuff, etc. He turned the ball over twice (once for a TD), had 2 other turnovers (one in the red zone) taken off the board by penalties on STL that were thin at best, and had a near 5th turnover on the batted screen pass at the end of the first half. He certainly did some good things but this was by far his worst of 3 starts even if the stats were the biggest.

When Jay puts up 350 yards and 2 TDs in a game where we get creamed all that gets talked about are his shortcomings in the game, and yet with McCown that isn't happening at all. It's all "Yeah, but...". It's a noteworthy double standard.


Not alone, I noticed that as well. For all the bad calls that went against the Bears, that roughing the passer call had to put them even. In terms of affecting the game, that is about as bad as you can get, assuming the fumble stands (14 point swing). I haven't seen enough replays of it to say for certain that it would have, though.
Completely right, if Jay were in it's 'Same old Jay, fast and loose with the football.' McCown will get a pass so long as A) the Bears win and B) he doesn't turn the ball over. Once he (or whoever we get at QB, i.e. Next Guy) hits a rough patch where both of those are not true, he'll get the same media/fan treatment every Bears QB gets.

Objectively speaking, it was a terrible situation for any QB to be in. I'm sure they planned on coming out with a heavy dose of Forte and exploiting the Rams weak run defense, trying to keep our own terrible run defense off the field as much as possible. The Forte fumble and immediate two score deficit scrapped that plan, now you are asking McCown to go win us a shoot out. That is a good recipe for a 4* turnover day.

If the Bears put him in too many more situations like that, the pass will expire.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WindyCity wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
What really bugs me is that the defense has slipped to totally non competitive.

I would excuse them with the injuries for being really bad and I would excuse them for some struggles.

But this is pathetic. Well beyond what I think is acceptable even for the injuries that have happened.

75 rush, 266 yards allowed the first 3 weeks before Melton went out (3.55 ypc, 88.7 ypg)
250 rush, 1333 yards allowed since (5.33 ypc, 166.6 ypg)

Worth noting, and the numbers are only worse since Briggs went out. It can't be underrated that he was the guy getting the defense lined up and that we are sorely missing that right now. Guys have been out of position far more often since he went down.


Agreed the injuries are a factor.

They do not have an excuse to be this bad. They are allowing close to 200 yards a game over the last 3 games.

Some of that is the circumstances of the past few games too. Stretching it back 4 games, GB lost Rodgers on the games first series, the Baltimore game was in a monsoon and STL had Kellen Clemens at QB. That plays in too.

You pointed out that Topou and Cohen don't belong on the league. I agree completely. But those guys are playing starter reps. What happens when Alabama plays against some bum school versus against LSU? They run the ball better, right? Same concept, only behind those bum linemen are 2 rookie LBs and a journeyman, and our opponents (especially the recent ones) have upper echelon NFL backs.
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ForteOz


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for my other thoughts on the game:

Why do we keep putting the ball in Bush's hands in 4th down situations? Overall I disagreed with the call to go for it when we were going to be down by a score either way, but I can at least follow the logic of it this time. The Rams have had trouble against the run, the game was looking to turn into a shootout so a FG probably wasn't going to determine the outcome (which, in hindsight, it didn't), and we had been running the ball well against them. But then why give it to Bush? Dude is done, he's given us nothing all year. Add this to the list of needs for next year: goal line/change of pace back.

Great to see Hester showing some life on that punt return. Real heart breaker seeing it called back (which I think I threw out there as an option as my ST blunder o' the week against the Lions Very Happy). I really want to see him break the record this year, because I don't think he's coming back with us. His KR's are just not helping the team. It is not always his fault, like when someone clips/holds and it gets taken back to the 10 yard line, but KR was never really where he did his damage anyway.

Our special teams are way too much of a liability to be devoting roster spots to players like Weems and Hester. My line of thinking is, if our ST are going to suck, let's at least use it to develop future offensive/defensive depth. Especially Weems. I feel like the only time I see him, he is starting crap after the whistle.

Glad to see Bass pick up another sack. He could turn out to be a bright spot on the defense this year.
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blkwdw13


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
blkwdw13 wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
One other thing to point out is this D seems to be going as Peppers goes…he plays well we do well…he is a non-factor we get destroyed…have to increase the DE talent this offseason which will help the rest of the D…just look what a team with Quinn & Long can do.


Except when he had his best game of the season against the Ravens the weren't good either on the defensive side.


Other than the fact it was the joint season low in points allowed by this D which at the end of the day is the most important part of playing defence.


Yes a season low, but I think that was more due to the few timely turn overs and playing an offense that is pretty one dimensional.
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AZBearsFan


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForteOz wrote:
As for my other thoughts on the game:

Why do we keep putting the ball in Bush's hands in 4th down situations? Overall I disagreed with the call to go for it when we were going to be down by a score either way, but I can at least follow the logic of it this time. The Rams have had trouble against the run, the game was looking to turn into a shootout so a FG probably wasn't going to determine the outcome (which, in hindsight, it didn't), and we had been running the ball well against them. But then why give it to Bush? Dude is done, he's given us nothing all year. Add this to the list of needs for next year: goal line/change of pace back.

Great to see Hester showing some life on that punt return. Real heart breaker seeing it called back (which I think I threw out there as an option as my ST blunder o' the week against the Lions Very Happy). I really want to see him break the record this year, because I don't think he's coming back with us. His KR's are just not helping the team. It is not always his fault, like when someone clips/holds and it gets taken back to the 10 yard line, but KR was never really where he did his damage anyway.

Our special teams are way too much of a liability to be devoting roster spots to players like Weems and Hester. My line of thinking is, if our ST are going to suck, let's at least use it to develop future offensive/defensive depth. Especially Weems. I feel like the only time I see him, he is starting crap after the whistle.

Glad to see Bass pick up another sack. He could turn out to be a bright spot on the defense this year.

If Hester continues to bring the ball out from 7+ yards deep on KOs and not even get back to the 20 then maybe he should be restricted to punts only. He's hurting us giving us the ball at the 15 so often. I understand completely his desire to bring the ball out now more than ever since he doesn't play offense any more but hurting the team is hurting the team.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Green Bay-had to run the ball when Rodgers could not play and we could not stop it when we knew it was coming.

Baltimore- came into the game the worse run team in the NFL and had to run because of the conditions and we could not stop it.

St. Louis- had to run the ball with Clemens playing QB and we could not stop it.

The situations make out pathetic run defense even more embarrassing we were playing 1 dimensional teams and got killed by that dimension.
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