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2014 Draft Talk Thread - Version Five Point Oh!
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 21515
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
OakleyCap wrote:


I don't agree. Iverson may have had some character concerns but there weren't any concerns about his work-ethic or heart/motor. Dude was extremely productive his entire collegiate career and over the course of his NBA career.

If Clowney can put up production in the NFL that is equivalent to what Iverson did in the NBA he'll go down as one of the greatest to ever live.


I can't speak for OakDB but I think he was referring to how coachable AI was and how much he really cared about getting better. Iverson didn't go down as one of the greatest but if he had put in more work, I bet he'd certainly be in the conversation. I can think of 7-12 guys in the NBA right now I'd take over AI and I don't care at all about the sport.


This.


Sorry but this just isn't true.
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smokey1212


Joined: 15 Mar 2006
Posts: 599
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
OakleyCap wrote:


I don't agree. Iverson may have had some character concerns but there weren't any concerns about his work-ethic or heart/motor. Dude was extremely productive his entire collegiate career and over the course of his NBA career.

If Clowney can put up production in the NFL that is equivalent to what Iverson did in the NBA he'll go down as one of the greatest to ever live.


I can't speak for OakDB but I think he was referring to how coachable AI was and how much he really cared about getting better. Iverson didn't go down as one of the greatest but if he had put in more work, I bet he'd certainly be in the conversation. I can think of 7-12 guys in the NBA right now I'd take over AI and I don't care at all about the sport.


This.


Sorry but this just isn't true.


It depends what you mean by "one of the greatest" What's the range on that? Top 5, top 20, top 50?
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5803
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackPrestige92 wrote:
AI was one of the greatest.........

He used to crap on Gary Payton as a baby, took those 76ers to the finals alone, was scoring with T-Mac & Kobe even though he was a good 8-9 inches shorter. A monster in the passing lanes. The beatings he'd take from C's.......

Career achievements & stats are great, too bad he has no ring. In his prime I'd take him over anyone playing today except Lebron & KD

All that aside he did leave something on the court to be achieved, no doubt. I MEAN WE TALKIN BOUT PRACTICE! Laughing Kobe is a legend purely off of practice.

If Clowney were to be like AI I'd be sad because everyone knows hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. Sure he'd be a HOF but he could be like top 5 all time.

it'd be like when someone made the thread asking if Julius Peppers underachieved in his career. People said yes, but it was crazy considering how many sacks the guy's accumulated. Think JJ Watt isn't busting his tail off to be next to Reggie White?

Just the way it is I guess.

+1
I'm not a fan of his but with all due respect, A.i. is going to be a HoF. He took a team to finals by himself that had no business being there. NBA MVP, Four x Scoring Champ, 2 x NBA ALL-Star MVP. Iverson is credited with having a GREAT impact on NBA culture with his signature move, the double cross-over, braids, tats & the arm sleeve.

A.i.was a great talent, however he grinded on people and wore teammates out with his behavior. A.i. has a tremendous effect of the league (many would argue some of it negative)

If Clowney is an influential as A.i. was then he will be a HoF for sure. People call Clowney lazy but at USC's Pro Day he was clearly in better shape than anyone else participating that day. While I do think Clowney wants to be the 1st pick I don't think he will reach his full potential as a 34 OLB unless he plays very close to the LoS. At 266lbs 34 DE is not feasible, which imvho, is his optimal weight. Clowney will look like a bust at 34 DE. I think standing

If Clowney does reach his potential he will push the envelope. Would you find it acceptable if Clowney annually sat out most of TC and pre-season but put up double digit sacks and led the league in pass rushing efficiency ever year?
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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Big Rob


Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 2005
Location: Long Beach, Ca
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TiberiusRising wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
RaidersAreOne wrote:
If anyone is getting overrated on this site, it is Robinson. Tons of the guys in the draft section prefer Mathews still over Robinson. Robinson is an unbelievable mauler, but leaves ALOT to be desired in pass pro. If I am taking a LT at number 5, I want him to be better in pass pro than anything. He is better projected as a LG at this point in time. He needs alot of work on technique, where as Mathews is already as polished as they come and looks to be a rock for the next decade plus.


unlimited potential + great OL Coach= worth the risk...

If Sparano can make McCants looks decent what we do with a kid like Robinson?

Same reasoning screams take a player that is better at another position. Have your great OL coach, coach up a guy taken later.


like who? If Mack, Watkins, Cowney are gone like they all will most likely be...id trade down if i could, but if i had to take someone itd be Robinson...
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 3089
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Rob wrote:
TiberiusRising wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
RaidersAreOne wrote:
If anyone is getting overrated on this site, it is Robinson. Tons of the guys in the draft section prefer Mathews still over Robinson. Robinson is an unbelievable mauler, but leaves ALOT to be desired in pass pro. If I am taking a LT at number 5, I want him to be better in pass pro than anything. He is better projected as a LG at this point in time. He needs alot of work on technique, where as Mathews is already as polished as they come and looks to be a rock for the next decade plus.


unlimited potential + great OL Coach= worth the risk...

If Sparano can make McCants looks decent what we do with a kid like Robinson?

Same reasoning screams take a player that is better at another position. Have your great OL coach, coach up a guy taken later.


like who? If Mack, Watkins, Cowney are gone like they all will most likely be...id trade down if i could, but if i had to take someone itd be Robinson...


Donald comes to mind, even Carr. I completely agree that you can take a T later thats from a smaller school or is even raw. I see shades of Justin Smith in Robinson. I also don't like the fact that he's a red-shirt sophomore, experience is very important for me if I'm taking a player in the top 5. He's a tremendous athlete but I don't like the fact that he isn't technically sound, especially in pass protection.
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Silver&Black88 wrote:
Its like they're too incompetent to know they're incompetent.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3644
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I the only one who sees the similarity between JV and Robinson?
A physically gifted prospect, who is a mauler in the run game and needs work in pass protection.
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 3089
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the similarity between JV and Robinson?
A physically gifted prospect, who is a mauler in the run game and needs work in pass protection.


JV who was selected in the 3RD ROUND?
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On the Raider's Staff
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Its like they're too incompetent to know they're incompetent.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3644
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chali21 wrote:
bitty wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the similarity between JV and Robinson?
A physically gifted prospect, who is a mauler in the run game and needs work in pass protection.


JV who was selected in the 3RD ROUND?


As a player not a draft prospect.
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RaiderX


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 20495
Location: Crown Town, CA
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
BlackPrestige92 wrote:
AI was one of the greatest.........

He used to crap on Gary Payton as a baby, took those 76ers to the finals alone, was scoring with T-Mac & Kobe even though he was a good 8-9 inches shorter. A monster in the passing lanes. The beatings he'd take from C's.......

Career achievements & stats are great, too bad he has no ring. In his prime I'd take him over anyone playing today except Lebron & KD

All that aside he did leave something on the court to be achieved, no doubt. I MEAN WE TALKIN BOUT PRACTICE! Laughing Kobe is a legend purely off of practice.

If Clowney were to be like AI I'd be sad because everyone knows hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. Sure he'd be a HOF but he could be like top 5 all time.

it'd be like when someone made the thread asking if Julius Peppers underachieved in his career. People said yes, but it was crazy considering how many sacks the guy's accumulated. Think JJ Watt isn't busting his tail off to be next to Reggie White?

Just the way it is I guess.

+1
I'm not a fan of his but with all due respect, A.i. is going to be a HoF. He took a team to finals by himself that had no business being there. NBA MVP, Four x Scoring Champ, 2 x NBA ALL-Star MVP. Iverson is credited with having a GREAT impact on NBA culture with his signature move, the double cross-over, braids, tats & the arm sleeve.

A.i.was a great talent, however he grinded on people and wore teammates out with his behavior. A.i. has a tremendous effect of the league (many would argue some of it negative)

If Clowney is an influential as A.i. was then he will be a HoF for sure. People call Clowney lazy but at USC's Pro Day he was clearly in better shape than anyone else participating that day. While I do think Clowney wants to be the 1st pick I don't think he will reach his full potential as a 34 OLB unless he plays very close to the LoS. At 266lbs 34 DE is not feasible, which imvho, is his optimal weight. Clowney will look like a bust at 34 DE. I think standing

If Clowney does reach his potential he will push the envelope. Would you find it acceptable if Clowney annually sat out most of TC and pre-season but put up double digit sacks and led the league in pass rushing efficiency ever year?


+1. AI was a bit of a pain and wasn't the easiest player to just fit into a system (see Denver), but the guy was a proven scorer and played all out.

Fully agree with Clowney being somewhat wasted as a 3-4 OLB. A guy who is a straight pass rushing demon being made to stand. If Houston was smart they would get the absolute most out of their 1st overall pick. Just sticking a guy at OLB is dumb.
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SaveourSonics wrote:
Yea, RaiderX wins. We can all just top acting like this is a matter of opinion. MY GOD.
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BlackPrestige92


Joined: 08 Nov 2011
Posts: 6111
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the similarity between JV and Robinson?
A physically gifted prospect, who is a mauler in the run game and needs work in pass protection.

Robinson is filthy & absolutely disgusting in the run game. Don't think JV ever made me go "ewwwwwww, they weren't ready"

When someone brought up Sporano coaching up Robinson it intrigues me but aren't Penn & Watson our OT's? The starters at that? Wouldn't Robinson be redundant?

I want Donald should Mack & Watson be gone.
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If Phil Jackson came back, still no coaching me, Im uncoachable, Im unsociable.
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Big Rob


Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 2005
Location: Long Beach, Ca
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackPrestige92 wrote:
bitty wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the similarity between JV and Robinson?
A physically gifted prospect, who is a mauler in the run game and needs work in pass protection.

Robinson is filthy & absolutely disgusting in the run game. Don't think JV ever made me go "ewwwwwww, they weren't ready"

When someone brought up Sporano coaching up Robinson it intrigues me but aren't Penn & Watson our OT's? The starters at that? Wouldn't Robinson be redundant?

I want Donald should Mack & Watson be gone.


id put him at LG for a year and let him take over in '15...
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THE MAD STORK


Joined: 07 Aug 2012
Posts: 581
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackPrestige92 wrote:
bitty wrote:
Am I the only one who sees the similarity between JV and Robinson?
A physically gifted prospect, who is a mauler in the run game and needs work in pass protection.

Robinson is filthy & absolutely disgusting in the run game. Don't think JV ever made me go "ewwwwwww, they weren't ready"

When someone brought up Sporano coaching up Robinson it intrigues me but aren't Penn & Watson our OT's? The starters at that? Wouldn't Robinson be redundant?

I want Donald should Mack & Watson be gone.


The thing is..we dont know what we got in either one. I wouldnt put much faith in Watson ( just because he was a 2nd rounder does not mean he is going to be good) actually the way we draft, its a safe guess that he wont be very good (looking at our history)..Just because he was a 2nd rounder, doesnt mean that we have to spoon feed him an opportunity either..

As for Penn, he can be a good player..he struggles with weight problems. And he is not young. So there is no reason to put a bunch of faith in him.

the 3 players I am looking at (realistically) if we dont trade back:

1.Donald
2. Robinson
3. Manziel
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THE MAD STORK


Joined: 07 Aug 2012
Posts: 581
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:
THE MAD STORK wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
raiderfan19 wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
No one has really been critical of Khalil Mack but IMO he is the most overrated prospect and is very scheme specific. If he is drafted into a normal 4-3 olb role he will disappoint, his coverage skills look like Aaron Curry's and he's not a De in a 4-3 because he can't stop the run from the position. He is a "swiss army knife" as bagga would put it. He's not even a excellent specimen like Robinson I don't see where the hype is coming from.

He needs to be in a 34. In a 43 hell still be good but he's be better off in the 34. 43 end in the nickel only. At OLB I like Sio Moore more. Sio has better hips, feet, speed and coverage ability. At the end of the day though Mack is a kid who just goes out there, makes plays and makes your team better. I'd still take him at 5 and build the defense around Mack and Sio.


WHAT? sio sucks in coverage lol


lol..yes, sio moore sucks in coverage...bad..our only lb who is any good in coverage is nick roach.


He definitely can improve there but he doesn't SUCK. Roach gets pushed around in the run game so...


Suck was a little exaggerated..but he covers like your average NFL LB..I want linebackers who can cover..all the great linebackers can cover..

I would like to take a chance on Telvin Smith (OLB Flordia St. ) in the later rounds (4). He's a Seattle type linebacker who can cover. He is really undersized, but plays with an edge. I think Telvin Smith is one of those linebackers who can cover elite TE's. Those are the linebackers that great defenses have.

Sio Moore isnt the issue on the team..there are far greater issues to be addressed, but hes not the type of linebacker that I would want us to have.
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Big Rob


Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like Telvin Smith, reminds me a little of Travathan from the Donkeys...undersized but flys around the field making plays, wouldnt mind him in the 4th...
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MrOaktown_56


Joined: 15 Dec 2013
Posts: 1426
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THE MAD STORK wrote:
MrOaktown_56 wrote:
THE MAD STORK wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
raiderfan19 wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
No one has really been critical of Khalil Mack but IMO he is the most overrated prospect and is very scheme specific. If he is drafted into a normal 4-3 olb role he will disappoint, his coverage skills look like Aaron Curry's and he's not a De in a 4-3 because he can't stop the run from the position. He is a "swiss army knife" as bagga would put it. He's not even a excellent specimen like Robinson I don't see where the hype is coming from.

He needs to be in a 34. In a 43 hell still be good but he's be better off in the 34. 43 end in the nickel only. At OLB I like Sio Moore more. Sio has better hips, feet, speed and coverage ability. At the end of the day though Mack is a kid who just goes out there, makes plays and makes your team better. I'd still take him at 5 and build the defense around Mack and Sio.


WHAT? sio sucks in coverage lol


lol..yes, sio moore sucks in coverage...bad..our only lb who is any good in coverage is nick roach.


He definitely can improve there but he doesn't SUCK. Roach gets pushed around in the run game so...


Suck was a little exaggerated..but he covers like your average NFL LB..I want linebackers who can cover..all the great linebackers can cover..

I would like to take a chance on Telvin Smith (OLB Flordia St. ) in the later rounds (4). He's a Seattle type linebacker who can cover. He is really undersized, but plays with an edge. I think Telvin Smith is one of those linebackers who can cover elite TE's. Those are the linebackers that great defenses have.

Sio Moore isnt the issue on the team..there are far greater issues to be addressed, but hes not the type of linebacker that I would want us to have.


Seriously?
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