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ramssuperbowl99


Joined: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 22897
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
Not sure what that has to do with this…
It's pretty hard for a guy who can't throw a baseball to have 80 grade pitches.
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green24


Joined: 10 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
green24 wrote:
Not sure what that has to do with this…
It's pretty hard for a guy who can't throw a baseball to have 80 grade pitches.

I'm talking about as of when he last pitched.
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kgarrett12486


Joined: 22 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it's not an 80 grade, but where would we put Wacha's change-up...

It's still not perfected by his own admission, but it's pretty good when he has a feel...
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ramssuperbowl99


Joined: 15 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
green24 wrote:
Not sure what that has to do with this…
It's pretty hard for a guy who can't throw a baseball to have 80 grade pitches.

I'm talking about as of when he last pitched.
Which is silly because he's had major surgery on his pitching arm since then. You shouldn't assign him any pitching grades until he comes back healthy, since you have no idea whether he'll come back just as strong or go full Francisco Liriano and lose his stuff.

kgarrett12486 wrote:
I know it's not an 80 grade, but where would we put Wacha's change-up...

It's still not perfected by his own admission, but it's pretty good when he has a feel...
65
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green24


Joined: 10 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see an 80 control in baseball right now. Cliff Lee had the lowest BB/9 in baseball last year, but I wouldn't describe his control as being an 80.
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ramssuperbowl99


Joined: 15 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

green24 wrote:
I don't see an 80 control in baseball right now. Cliff Lee had the lowest BB/9 in baseball last year, but I wouldn't describe his control as being an 80.
IIRC, Cliff Lee has lead baseball in Edge% for the past few years. If it's not 80, it's 75+.

EDIT: http://www.baseballheatmaps.com/2013-edge-leaderboards/
Not so much.
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GmenSeattle


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think enough people are talking about Ventura here...



He can get that late movement on a fastball travelling over 100MPH (averaging 97.1 mind you) has to be talked about more IMO.

Also, have fun with this:

http://pitchergifs.com
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mse326


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
green24 wrote:
I don't see an 80 control in baseball right now. Cliff Lee had the lowest BB/9 in baseball last year, but I wouldn't describe his control as being an 80.
IIRC, Cliff Lee has lead baseball in Edge% for the past few years. If it's not 80, it's 75+.

EDIT: http://www.baseballheatmaps.com/2013-edge-leaderboards/
Not so much.


Explain exactly what edge % is? As I understand it is just how often you hit the edge of the strike zone as opposed to outside of it or well inside of it.

If that's the case it doesn't tell much about command since command is about throwing where you want. If you want it out of the strike zone or trust your stuff enough to throw it in the strike zone then edge % is deceptive.

All I can say is when Cliff Lee pitches Ruiz's glove barely moves if at all.
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mission27


Joined: 17 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
green24 wrote:
I don't see an 80 control in baseball right now. Cliff Lee had the lowest BB/9 in baseball last year, but I wouldn't describe his control as being an 80.
IIRC, Cliff Lee has lead baseball in Edge% for the past few years. If it's not 80, it's 75+.

EDIT: http://www.baseballheatmaps.com/2013-edge-leaderboards/
Not so much.


Explain exactly what edge % is? As I understand it is just how often you hit the edge of the strike zone as opposed to outside of it or well inside of it.

If that's the case it doesn't tell much about command since command is about throwing where you want. If you want it out of the strike zone or trust your stuff enough to throw it in the strike zone then edge % is deceptive.

All I can say is when Cliff Lee pitches Ruiz's glove barely moves if at all.


Would like to see a spreadsheet with a ball%/edge% or walk%/edge% ratio. A low ratio would mean you consistently hit the corners without throwing a ball/walking a batter, whereas a high percentage would indicated poor ability to prevent balls/walks relative to your propensity to nibble. Obviously that's not the end of the command discussion but its a start.
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flyers0909


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does Salazar's stuff grade out?
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green24


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flyers0909 wrote:
How does Salazar's stuff grade out?

I think this seems like a decent breakdown.
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GmenSeattle wrote:
I don't think enough people are talking about Ventura here...



He can get that late movement on a fastball travelling over 100MPH (averaging 97.1 mind you) has to be talked about more IMO.

Also, have fun with this:

http://pitchergifs.com


That is absolutely insane.
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green24


Joined: 10 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

80grade.com has the following 80 tools:

Byron Buxton - speed
Billy Hamilton - speed
Joey Gallo - power
D.J. Davis - speed
Delino DeShields Jr. - speed
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ramssuperbowl99


Joined: 15 Apr 2005
Posts: 22897
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mse326 wrote:
Explain exactly what edge % is? As I understand it is just how often you hit the edge of the strike zone as opposed to outside of it or well inside of it.
Correct. Pitches on either of the outer 8% of the plate (I think) as a fraction of total pitches thrown.

mse326 wrote:
If that's the case it doesn't tell much about command since command is about throwing where you want. If you want it out of the strike zone or trust your stuff enough to throw it in the strike zone then edge % is deceptive.

All I can say is when Cliff Lee pitches Ruiz's glove barely moves if at all.
There are definitely limitations. I like looking at it in conjunction with Heart%, which is basically how many times you're throwing it right down the middle. While there are guys who want to put it in the dirt, no pitcher wants to throw the ball middle-up.

I'd also like to see it expressed like mission says - how often you hit the corners divided by the amount of walks you give up.

It's a good place to start though.
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UofMfan909


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flyers0909 wrote:
How does Salazar's stuff grade out?


Great article on his fastball here. Not sure where they're getting the .254 ISO they're knocking him for, as fangraphs Pitchf/x has him at .227 last year, but it's still a concern (also lists him at .746 OPS and a 117 wRC+ against for the pitch). Not great numbers to have against your primary pitch, but it seems like sample size would be the real issue there. Obviously he can throw it hard and, like the article shows, he's had some real success with the pitch. When a starter throws it as hard as he does it's going to catch your attention. Some of those whiff rates on the location chart are really eye opening.


18%+ whiff rate straight down the middle is kind of ridiculous, for example.

The numbers on his slider and changeup look pretty good from last year but I'd have to actually pay attention to him to fairly asses those pitches. The K% on the changeup is really high. I'm not really great at labeling guys with numbers, but I'd say that if his fastball isn't a 70 it's pushing it. The others are probably closer to 60.
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