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Saints Win Jimmy Graham TE/WR Grievance
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Perfundle


Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 1928
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

domepatrol91 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
I have the answer right here...it's simple. A tight end plays inline. You tally up the plays that Graham played inline. That's how many he played at TE. If he played split off from the formation, he's a WR. You tally up those plays and that's what he played at WR. The higher number is the position you give him credit for being. Voila.


The NFL is going to lose a LOT of TEs then. Not saying it's a bad thing, but almost all the top TEs are WRs by that rule. If you're fine with it, so be it.

TEs don't line up in the slot or out wide that often. Using Football Outsiders' snap counts of TEs lined up as WRs here, combined with their snap count numbers, the top 10 TEs being used as such look like:

Percentage of time at WR:

59.5% Jimmy Graham
51.4% Tony Gonzalez
39.0% Jared Cook
33.5% Antonio Gates
32.9% Charles Clay
28.2% Jason Witten
27.9% Greg Olsen
27.7% Vernon Davis
27.3% Jordan Cameron
23.3% Martellus Bennett

So only two TEs would qualify by that criteria.
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perfundle wrote:
domepatrol91 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
I have the answer right here...it's simple. A tight end plays inline. You tally up the plays that Graham played inline. That's how many he played at TE. If he played split off from the formation, he's a WR. You tally up those plays and that's what he played at WR. The higher number is the position you give him credit for being. Voila.


The NFL is going to lose a LOT of TEs then. Not saying it's a bad thing, but almost all the top TEs are WRs by that rule. If you're fine with it, so be it.

TEs don't line up in the slot or out wide that often. Using Football Outsiders' snap counts of TEs lined up as WRs here, combined with their snap count numbers, the top 10 TEs being used as such look like:

Percentage of time at WR:

59.5% Jimmy Graham
51.4% Tony Gonzalez
39.0% Jared Cook
33.5% Antonio Gates
32.9% Charles Clay
28.2% Jason Witten
27.9% Greg Olsen
27.7% Vernon Davis
27.3% Jordan Cameron
23.3% Martellus Bennett

So only two TEs would qualify by that criteria.


Well then different sources are saying different things.

Quote:
Graham's argument is that he should be considered a receiver because he lined up either in the slot or out wide 67 percent of the time last season.


Quote:
For example, one of the NFL's all-time great tight ends, Tony Gonzalez, lined up in the slot or out wide even more than Graham last season (67.3 percent to 66.8 percent, according to ESPN Stats & Information).


http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11102055/twitter-bio-used-vs-jimmy-graham-new-orleans-saints

FWIW, I've heard the 67% thing on Jimmy Graham for MONTHS now. I'm not sure where they/you are getting 59% but it's way off from what has been reported by most major news outlets for a long time.

Edit: Found the stats. Not as many big names as I expected, I'll admit that. But if we want to call Graham a WR, these guys are WRs as well. If you're OK with that, that's fine. I just don't want a double standard.

Quote:
According to ESPN Stats & Information, Graham was one of 11 tight ends in the NFL last year who lined up more than 50 percent of the time at those traditional receiver positions. Only three of them were full-time starters. But the other two were Atlanta's Tony Gonzalez (67 percent) and San Diego's Antonio Gates (52 percent) -- which is noteworthy since those two players have always been considered as tight ends for the purposes of determining franchise-tag salaries.


Quote:
Chase Coffman 79.3 %
Dennis Pitta 73.5 %
Gavin Escobar 71.4 %
Tony Scheffler 69.0 %
Dallas Clark 68.1 %
Kellen Winslow 67.9 %
Jacob Tamme 67.9 %
Tony Gonzalez 67.3 %
Jimmy Graham 66.8 %
Dante Rosario 55.3 %
Antonio Gates 51.7 %


Some other big names who are right on the cusp and could easily fall into that category next season are:

Quote:
Cleveland's Jordan Cameron (49 percent), Carolina's Greg Olsen (48 percent), Green Bay's Jermichael Finley (47 percent), St. Louis' Jared Cook (47 percent), New England Rob Gronkowski (47 percent), Chicago's Martellus Bennett (46 percent) and Indianapolis Coby Fleener (46 percent).


Are we willing to call them WRs if they take just an extra handful of snaps in the slot next season?

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-orleans-saints/post/_/id/5043/what-happens-if-graham-fights-te-tag
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^Might as well exclude Tony Scheffler since he's retired.
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
^^Might as well exclude Tony Scheffler since he's retired.


We're discussing snaps and snaps at WR vs TE last season. Going forward (next time this discussion comes up) yes, Scheffler will be left off the list because he won't have a snap count.

It makes no sense to leave him off the list when we're comparing WR/TE hybrids from last season.
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sp6488


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perfundle wrote:
domepatrol91 wrote:
jrry32 wrote:
I have the answer right here...it's simple. A tight end plays inline. You tally up the plays that Graham played inline. That's how many he played at TE. If he played split off from the formation, he's a WR. You tally up those plays and that's what he played at WR. The higher number is the position you give him credit for being. Voila.


The NFL is going to lose a LOT of TEs then. Not saying it's a bad thing, but almost all the top TEs are WRs by that rule. If you're fine with it, so be it.

TEs don't line up in the slot or out wide that often. Using Football Outsiders' snap counts of TEs lined up as WRs here, combined with their snap count numbers, the top 10 TEs being used as such look like:

Percentage of time at WR:

59.5% Jimmy Graham
51.4% Tony Gonzalez
39.0% Jared Cook
33.5% Antonio Gates
32.9% Charles Clay
28.2% Jason Witten
27.9% Greg Olsen
27.7% Vernon Davis
27.3% Jordan Cameron
23.3% Martellus Bennett

So only two TEs would qualify by that criteria.


However, the WRs who make up the WR cap number play at WR ~100% of snaps. Thinking that way, Graham has much more in common with the TEs who line up at TE sometimes and WR at others, those guys who make up the Top 5 TE salary cap figure.
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DrawABlank


Joined: 27 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
However, the WRs who make up the WR cap number play at WR ~100% of snaps


Not necessarily - you get guys like Randall Cobb and Tavon Austin who take handoffs. Josh Cribbs also used to do it in the wildcat - I'm sure there are even more.

But I imagine the WR tag is much higher than the RB tag so it doesn't matter so much.

Of course, that brings up the thought of RBs who split out wide (Shane Vereen for example, not that you'd ever tag him) pursuing the Graham line of argument.
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrawABlank wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
However, the WRs who make up the WR cap number play at WR ~100% of snaps


Not necessarily - you get guys like Randall Cobb and Tavon Austin who take handoffs. Josh Cribbs also used to do it in the wildcat - I'm sure there are even more.


These guys aren't making the top 5 WR salaries though. Confused

That's what sp6488 was getting at. Jimmy Graham has much more in common with the guys who make up the top 5 TE salaries than the guys who make up the top 5 WR salaries.

DrawABlank wrote:
Of course, that brings up the thought of RBs who split out wide (Shane Vereen for example, not that you'd ever tag him) pursuing the Graham line of argument.


Was he lined up as a WR on over 50% of his snaps?

If so he'd have a strong case. Like you said though, he isn't getting tagged, so it doesn't matter.
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sp6488


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

domepatrol91 wrote:
DrawABlank wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
However, the WRs who make up the WR cap number play at WR ~100% of snaps


Not necessarily - you get guys like Randall Cobb and Tavon Austin who take handoffs. Josh Cribbs also used to do it in the wildcat - I'm sure there are even more.


These guys aren't making the top 5 WR salaries though. Confused

That's what sp6488 was getting at. Jimmy Graham has much more in common with the guys who make up the top 5 TE salaries than the guys who make up the top 5 WR salaries.


Exactly, the ruling makes a lot more sense, in my opinion if you consider whether Graham has more in common with the players who make up the top-5 TE salaries or the top-5 WR salaries, rather than a simple in-line vs. split out spectrum. At the end of the day, that's the end game of the designation, which group he should be considered with.
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With so many hybrid positions nowadays, the NFL such just make it 6 different Franchise Tags instead of the 11 we have now.

Quarterbacks
RB/WR/TE
OL
DL/LB
DB
K/P
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acgott wrote:
With so many hybrid positions nowadays, the NFL such just make it 6 different Franchise Tags instead of the 11 we have now.

Quarterbacks
RB/WR/TE
OL
DL/LB
DB
K/P


Works for me.

Or even:

QB
Offense
Defense
ST

Then teams might not use it so often, and that's not a bad thing either.
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sp6488


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

domepatrol91 wrote:
Acgott wrote:
With so many hybrid positions nowadays, the NFL such just make it 6 different Franchise Tags instead of the 11 we have now.

Quarterbacks
RB/WR/TE
OL
DL/LB
DB
K/P


Works for me.

Or even:

QB
Offense
Defense
ST

Then teams might not use it so often, and that's not a bad thing either.


I doubt the players will be willing to concede whatever it takes to erode the cap that much from an ownership perspective at the next round of CBA negotiations.
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domepatrol91


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
domepatrol91 wrote:
Acgott wrote:
With so many hybrid positions nowadays, the NFL such just make it 6 different Franchise Tags instead of the 11 we have now.

Quarterbacks
RB/WR/TE
OL
DL/LB
DB
K/P


Works for me.

Or even:

QB
Offense
Defense
ST

Then teams might not use it so often, and that's not a bad thing either.


I doubt the players will be willing to concede whatever it takes to erode the cap that much from an ownership perspective at the next round of CBA negotiations.


I know, it's just a pipe dream. Would be a big improvement though, IMO. Only true franchise players would really get the tag.
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DreDay80


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The way I see it, although a TE will often line up as a WR, you would never see a receiver be inline as a TE as much as Graham.
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Rockice_8


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed ^^^

He is a TE so this is no surprise. TE's lineup inline and sometimes outside, you will never see a WR lineup inline.

I didn't hear him complaining about those All-Pro TE selections cause he probably doesn't get them if he's a WR. If he was truly a WR he would have turned them down saying "I'm a WR not a TE so I can't accept this." Obviously not going to happen but you get the point.

I have no problem with him going for it but he was never going to win. You're a TE Jimmy, face it.
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Ketchup


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not about being a TE or a WR. It's just a meaningless label. It's about the money. Jimmy Graham deserves to be paid more then the TE franchise tag and with the team and player not agreeing to a long term deal, Graham was trying an avenue to get more money. It was obviously worth the try.
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