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Tiki: I'd still be playing if not for Coughlin
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enrage wrote:
Tiki could learn a lesson from Barry Sanders. When Barry was unhappy with the team, he simply retired. He never badmouthed the team or whined and complained. He didn't make himself a spectacle.

Barry = Pure class
Tiki = No class


and

Tom Coughlin = World Class Jerk
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jagz4life


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enrage wrote:
Tiki could learn a lesson from Barry Sanders. When Barry was unhappy with the team, he simply retired. He never badmouthed the team or whined and complained. He didn't make himself a spectacle.

Barry = Pure class
Tiki = No class


I used to have so much respect for Tiki, but I have to agree with you now. He's become a 12 year old girl about this.
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GEE MEN


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
GEE MEN wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
GEE MEN wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
^^I understand your point, but I suspect Tiki believes he is doing this for the good of his former teammates who probably all hate their boss.

I once worked at a record store, where the boss was a total and complete (insert bad word of your choice). She was unbearable. She yelled at even the best employees and made life a living hell. As a result I quit, when I did I wrote a nice little letter to the corporate office letting them know how abusive the boss was. In my case, they investigated, fired the boss and hired me back with a raise and a promotion. I don't suspect that Tiki is hoping to come back to the Giants, but I do suspect he is trying to get Coughlin fired and rescue his former teammates.

Grown men that do their jobs don't deserve to be constantly berated and harrassed by their boss. I don't blame Tiki one bit, and if you've followed Coughlin's career at all, you'd know that players have wanted to choke him out for a long, long time. Barber is the first to truly take him on.


Sorry, but while some have felt that way, others appreciate and respect the coach, including our pro bowl LB Antonio Pierce. Tiki should grow up and shut up. He's not trying to look out for anyone (not his teammates), he is looking to further his own career at the expense of his teammates and former coaches. Did you know that before Coughlin arrived Tiki was an average RB who was likely on his way to being cut because he had a case of fumbleitis? Did you know that (and Tiki readily admits it) that it was Coughlin who PERSONALLY fixed it for him and made him the (HOF?) player that he is? Tiki had his best years unders Coughlin with all of his rules. Before that, Tiki may have "liked" his coaches because they coddled him and had soft camps, but if it wasn't for Coughlin (and a very good run-blocking OLINE), many wouldn't even know Tiki for the player he was that last couple of years. For 7 years he was part average and part laughing stock with his fumbling problem...I know I lived through it at the stadium. Along came Coughlin and saved his career (yes even Tiki has admitted as much). There is no reason or excuse for what Attim Kiambu is doing other than for personal gain and it's pathetic. The Curtis Martin's of the world would never do something like that...those type of guys are all class.


That is one way to look at the situation. However, to say Tiki was on his way out of the league, is not at all close to reality. Yes, he had fumble problems, no doubt, but his skill level was never in question and had NY been foolish enough to part ways with Tiki he would have undoubtedly caught on elsewhere. Another way to look at it is that the all time leading rusher of the Giants could still be in the backfield if the brass had only listened to the numerous calls for the coaches head. You also would have had a full preseason with Strahan this year. You may also have a more motivated top WR. Pierce may like Coughlin but finding one guy out of the legions that have despised Coughlin hardly changes my view of him. I'm not saying Tiki is blameless here, hardly. What I am saying is that the sea of criticism against Tiki Barber is unfair in comparison to the trickle of criticism levied against one of the biggest asses and least respected men in football in Tom Coughlin.


Not sure what you are referring to I never indicated that he'd be out of the league, but the only reason why he wasn't cut by the Giants was because of Coughlin. He was on a major bubble and who knows if he had gone to another team whether his fumbling woes would have continued. Hindsight is 20/20 my friend Smile. You don't know that another coach could have fixed Attim's problem. You make your "foolish" statement based upon his production after his fix. Rewind back to then and every Giants fan and most fans in general thought this guy was done! He may have had an opportunity elsewhere, but there's no telling if he would have continuned fumbling or not. We'll never know, but in any event he should be much more appreciative of Coughlin for saving his career and allowing him to do what he's doing now than look to trash the team, his teammates and coach.


Coughlin didn't "save" Tiki's career. Thats my point. Yes, he may have been instrumental in helping Tiki solve a fumbling problem, but that's what coaches are supposed to do. That does not grant him carte blanche to abuse a grown man and be the strictest task master in the NFL. Tiki owes Coughlin nothing. Coughlin gets a pay check like everyone else to do his job. His job was to help Tiki stop fumbling. Apparently he did that very small portion of his job. He certainly isn't getting coach of the year for helping Tiki slow the number of fumbles. Tiki gets credit for his own career and he will be remembered long after Tom Coughlin is gathering dust in an old folks home. And Tiki not only has the right to speak out about what a jerk of a coach Coughlin is, but he now has a duty considering that is what he is paid to do. If the Giants and their fans are sick of Tiki, fine. But the real story here is not what a jerk Tiki is, but what a jerk Tom Coughlin is and has been over the length and entirety of his career.


Love him or hate him, Coughlin's won everywhere he's gone and is a good coach. Did you know that after winning a superbowl with the Giants in 1990 as an assistant to Parcells he returned to Boston College to take on his first job as a head coach. In three seasons at BC, he turned the program into a consistent winner. Coughlin's tenure was capped with a 41-39 victory over #1 ranked Notre Dame. Did you know that? I'm guessing, not...

Did you also know that Coughlin's success at BC led to his subsequent hiring as the first head coach of the NFL's expansion Jacksonville Jaguars. In 8 seasons at Jacksonville, he helmed the most successful expansion team in league history, leading the Jaguars to the AFC Championship Game twice, the first time being only the second year of the team's existence, 1996, where he lost to Bill Parcells and the New England Patriots, but was named NFL Coach of the Year by United Press International. Coughlin would again take the Jaguars to the AFC Championship Game in 1999 after a 14-2 regular season before the Jags were bested by Tennessee Titans, the team that had beaten them twice in the regular season, and the only team to beat them all year. Did you know that? Let me guess, not?

Did you know that after being out of football in 2003, Coughlin was named the 16th head coach of the New York Giants on January 6, 2004 and inherited a team that finished 4-12 in 2003, but led the Giants to a surprising 5-2 start in his first season as head coach. Did you know? May I,? No right?

Did you know that Coughlin's Giants went 11-5 in Coughlin's second season and won the NFC East for the first time since 2000? Again, no right?

Did you know that Barber fumbled 14 times between 2001 and 2003. During his time with Coughlin, he only fumbled four times. Barber also saw his production increase significantly, setting career highs in rushing and total yards each year under Coughlin. Did you know that? IM SENSING A THEME HERE, EVERYONE TOGETHER, NO, RIGHT?

In 7 years with others, Attim is average then becomes a star who doesn't fumble and you can't give the coach the majority of the credit? This with Fassel having Attim for years and couldn't fix it. To think that had Attim gone anywhere else should he have been cut that he would have had the same success or not have fumbelitis is the mother of all hindsight 20/20s. What makes you so sure other coaches would have had the patience to work with a pompous kid to fix his fumbling problem after EVERY GIANTS FAN wanted nothing to do with him but off with his head. Fassel and numerous assistants tried, tried and tried. Did you know that? uhh, no right?

Say what you will about Coughlin, and he may be a jerk but he knows coaching and wins and yes he saved Attim's career and the ingrate doesn't have enough respect to quit whining like a girl. Attim has the right to speak out about his coach, but to repeatedly b***** about him, and his teammates makes him look like an arse. (and I'm not even a Coughlin fan lol but I do know what I'm talking about--at least I think I do Smile
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Newman41


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eagles $5$ wrote:
jackbauer24 wrote:
tiki needs to shut up.

I agree, he needs to understand nobody is really missing him in NFL anymore. (Well maybe the Giants, but even they have moved on... and thats what Tiki needs to do)


The NFL will last without Tiki. He needs to shut his mouth and learn how to be a better host.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You assume far too much. You know what they say about assuming. There is not one thing that you said about Coughlin that I did not know. Or that can be found on Wikipedia.

What I also know, that you fail to mention, is that EVERYWHERE he has coached he has alienated the players, had absurd rules that no other coach in the League had and lost the team by the end of his tenure. He did it in Jacksonville and is now doing it in NY. He has been bad mouthed by players in every single stop along the way, including college, and often by players who are role models, ala Tiki Barber. He also has never won a championship anywhere he been the head coach. He also has a losing record in the playoffs. He also has a career record as head coach just over .500. He is mediocrity defined. And he is a world class-[inappropriate/removed] on top of it all.

The point here is that Tiki Barber is one player, in a long line of players, that would love to take a shot at Coughlin, and have. The common denominator in all of this is that Coughlin treats grown men like 12 year old children. When you fine a multi millionaire for being 2 minutes early to a meeting, and not the 5 you demand, then you lose respect, you lose intergrity and you lose your team.. as Coughlin has done.....again. You force players to become petty and juvenille by being uneccesarily harsh and disrespectful. You get what you give. Coughlin is being a jerk, as he has done at every stop, and he is creating jerks....or at least jerk like behavior.


As to the comment that Coughlin made Barber, you way off base. Barber's average yards per carry is roughly the same during the Coughlin era as it was in the pre-Coughlin era. What increased were his carries and that was a direct result of the end of the Ron Dayne Era. Thunder and Lightning got shelved because Thunder sucked, and Lightning didn't. Yes, no doubt Coughlin helped with his fumbling, but Tiki was the run out there running for close to 5 ypc, and he did that before Coughlin ever stepped foot in NY. Coughlin owes Tiki, not the other way around. Tiki arguably saved Coughlins job with his 200+ yard performance on the last day of the season. You watch, Tiki will not be the last player to trash Coughlin. And he wasn't the only one on the current team to do so. Where is the hate for Shockey? Strahan? Burress? No, Tiki is not the problem here, Coughlin is and will be until NY wises up and lands a new head coach. I suspect that will next year.
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tipceey


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bottom line if Tiki loved the fans and organization like he said before he left than he wouldnt bash TC and eli and try to disrupt the organization while he's trying to prepare for the season...bottom line he's trying his best to sabotage the season again
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tipceey wrote:
bottom line if Tiki loved the fans and organization like he said before he left than he wouldnt bash TC and eli and try to disrupt the organization while he's trying to prepare for the season...bottom line he's trying his best to sabotage the season again



And what about Shockey? What about Burress? What about Strahan? Why do they all get a pass? Each one of them has been vocal about their disdain for Coughlin, yet none raises the ire of the fans the way Tiki does. Why?
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if Tiki does want to come back next year the Giants would not want him after what he has done calling out Eli and Coughlin
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tipceey


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
tipceey wrote:
bottom line if Tiki loved the fans and organization like he said before he left than he wouldnt bash TC and eli and try to disrupt the organization while he's trying to prepare for the season...bottom line he's trying his best to sabotage the season again



And what about Shockey? What about Burress? What about Strahan? Why do they all get a pass? Each one of them has been vocal about their disdain for Coughlin, yet none raises the ire of the fans the way Tiki does. Why?


what about shockey? what about Burress? what about strahan?....they all play for the NYG and none of them put a stain on last season like tiki...they have a legit gripe if they show up and play..tiki doesnt play he got his wish now he should ride of into the sunset and shut the hell up about the team...first eli, now coughlin...who's next?
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Blaze


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id be really suprised if he came back to the Giants even though i think this is Coughlin last year and the management would probably still want Tiki back unless has a incredible season
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tipceey wrote:
Mercury22 wrote:
tipceey wrote:
bottom line if Tiki loved the fans and organization like he said before he left than he wouldnt bash TC and eli and try to disrupt the organization while he's trying to prepare for the season...bottom line he's trying his best to sabotage the season again



And what about Shockey? What about Burress? What about Strahan? Why do they all get a pass? Each one of them has been vocal about their disdain for Coughlin, yet none raises the ire of the fans the way Tiki does. Why?


what about shockey? what about Burress? what about strahan?....they all play for the NYG and none of them put a stain on last season like tiki...they have a legit gripe if they show up and play..tiki doesnt play he got his wish now he should ride of into the sunset and shut the hell up about the team...first eli, now coughlin...who's next?



So only current players have a right to comment on a player or coach? What does that say about the million+ posters on websites like this that sound off on players and coaches? Are they not allowed? When did Tiki surrender his freedom to speech?

Secondly, Shockey made the worst comment a player can make about his coach, bar none. Not Tiki. Shockey said the team was "out coached." He essentially said the players have no confidence in Coughlin. I'm not saying all the players agree with that, but I assure you many do. And Shockey knew what he was saying. "Out Coached" was a very pointed comment. So yes, others "put a stain" on the season not named Tiki. Strahan is doing something similar now. It seems that all the big names on the Giants feel the same way. And guess what, this is not the first team where this has happened to Coughlin. There is a pattern of behavior here that has led to predictable and calculable results.

Keep in mind, that this is, afterall, Tiki's job now. One that he would prefer not having (he prefer to play ball for the Coughlin-less Giants) but he got sick of the same coach a lot of other players are sick of. He is now doing what his current employer has asked him to do and he is commenting on the NFL. He in no way is hurting the team. Negative press, if you want to categorize this story as that, is not necessarily a bad thing. Negative press that is not true can serve to unite those that KNOW its not true. So it can be a unifying force if shaped properly. The problem here is that it's all true, and the team, undoubtedly, knows it. Coughlin can't very well stand in front of his team and unifying them against Tiki, because most of the guys are secretly pleased someone is saying what they can't. Coughlin is the one hurting the team with his asinine rules and stricter than strict personality.

Coughlin brought all this on himself. And he's done it before. You push people unreasonably, and when they can, they will push back. People, including Tiki, have a right to say what they want. You may not like it, but Barber has the right to say what he wants. If someone doesn't like it they can tune in to another commentator and Tiki's job will go away. Voices only matter when someone listens and what should be the focus of this discussion should be why are dinosaurs like Coughlin given jobs.
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mlv


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, Barber too said the Giants were outcoached after they lost to Carolina in the 2005 Wild Card game. And as much as I love Shockey, one of my favorite athletes ever, he's not the brightest. He's said some stupid things before (anyone remember the threesome with a mother and twin daughters comments?). Barber is articulate, well-spoken and intelligent, or allegedly intelligent. So I hold him to a higher standard than I do Shockey when it comes to mouthing off, whether it's fair or not.
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GEE MEN


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
You assume far too much. You know what they say about assuming. There is not one thing that you said about Coughlin that I did not know. Or that can be found on Wikipedia.

What I also know, that you fail to mention, is that EVERYWHERE he has coached he has alienated the players, had absurd rules that no other coach in the League had and lost the team by the end of his tenure. He did it in Jacksonville and is now doing it in NY. He has been bad mouthed by players in every single stop along the way, including college, and often by players who are role models, ala Tiki Barber. He also has never won a championship anywhere he been the head coach. He also has a losing record in the playoffs. He also has a career record as head coach just over .500. He is mediocrity defined. And he is a world class-- on top of it all.

The point here is that Tiki Barber is one player, in a long line of players, that would love to take a shot at Coughlin, and have. The common denominator in all of this is that Coughlin treats grown men like 12 year old children. When you fine a multi millionaire for being 2 minutes early to a meeting, and not the 5 you demand, then you lose respect, you lose intergrity and you lose your team.. as Coughlin has done.....again. You force players to become petty and juvenille by being uneccesarily harsh and disrespectful. You get what you give. Coughlin is being a jerk, as he has done at every stop, and he is creating jerks....or at least jerk like behavior.


As to the comment that Coughlin made Barber, you way off base. Barber's average yards per carry is roughly the same during the Coughlin era as it was in the pre-Coughlin era. What increased were his carries and that was a direct result of the end of the Ron Dayne Era. Thunder and Lightning got shelved because Thunder sucked, and Lightning didn't. Yes, no doubt Coughlin helped with his fumbling, but Tiki was the run out there running for close to 5 ypc, and he did that before Coughlin ever stepped foot in NY. Coughlin owes Tiki, not the other way around. Tiki arguably saved Coughlins job with his 200+ yard performance on the last day of the season. You watch, Tiki will not be the last player to trash Coughlin. And he wasn't the only one on the current team to do so. Where is the hate for Shockey? Strahan? Burress? No, Tiki is not the problem here, Coughlin is and will be until NY wises up and lands a new head coach. I suspect that will next year.


Merc, I'm not sue what the love fest is for Attim and the disdain for Coughlin but the facts are the facts regardless of source and those are indisputable. You can't dispute Coughlin's achievements in taking his teams to the playoffs EVERYWHERE HE'S COACHED. While you don't appreciate a coach that has consistently taken his team to the playoffs, I bet there are thousands upon thousands of Fins fans who would much rather have a coach take to the Fins to the playoffs, even if he is a jerk, than finish below .500. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Fins haven't been to the playoffs since 1999. Do you want a sensitive coach and is tender with his players or an SOB who is effective at leading his club? Give me the SOB, this is football! And less than a third of the coaches have won a superbowl so Coughlin can't be that bad. Heck, one of the best coaching staffs in the NFL hasn't yet (Andy Reid) despite numerous opportunities.

On alienating players, so has Coughlin's mentor, Bill Parcells. Many many players despised Parcells throughout his stints in NY, NE, NY and Dallas and many still do, so what? The Tuna won 2 chips. If Coughlin wins a couple many opinions about how "horrible" a coach he is will change. And Merc, so what if grown men get alienated. They are multimillion dollar prima donnas. It isn't a right to play in the NFL, it's a privilige. Billy Martin alienated players in NY, the Reggie Jacksons of the world called him an [inappropriate/removed], even wanted to fight him in the dugout? so what. We're not that sensitive in NY. We are use to that. Shockey, Burress Strahan vent frustration after a game? So what, that's NY. Attim's problem isnt that he's venting after a loss. He is allegedly making attacks for personal gain against the very people that made him who he was. Was Attim your best friend in HS or somthing? lol I don't get it. The overwhelming majority see right thru what he's attempting to do. Ironically, he's alienating the average fan who didn't even follow football and can't understand why he just can't let go and move on.

As far as Attim's production, he can thank Coughlin first for curing his ills, the OLINE second and then Attim third, particularly in the Washington game. Attim often went untouched in that game for 7 yards or so the OLINE opened gaping holes for hiim to run through. Obviously you weren't aware of that since you believe Attim "won" the game and "saved" Coughlin's job (the big guys never get the credit) From the outside looking in, you may think it was all Attim, but we who have followed his entire career and have seen more than 10 second ESPN highlights know far better.
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forty six & 2


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I care very little about what comes out of former player turned analysts mouths. Especially the likes of Michael Irvin, Jerome Bettis, and now Tiki Barber. He's just starting his media career and instead of earning respect by sharing good insight, accurate reporting, and astute football knowledge with the public, he's using it as a platform to air his personal feelings about former coaches and teammates, which is not only very unprofessional, it's bad journalism. I don't care how big of an a$$ Tom Coughlin is, he was his head coach. His job was to do what his coach said and he was paid handsomely for it. If Tiki really had any cojones and wasn't just searching for headlines and celebrity in his new gig, he wouldn't have gone into T.V., he would have went into coaching since he's so keen on ridiculing Tom Coughlin's coaching aptitude. Let's see what kind of record Tiki Barber would have as a coach, but instead the self proclaimed pretty boy chose the route of a wannabe T.V. star. Grow up and lose some of your vanity Tiki, become an actual contributor to the world of football analysts, and then you might actually get some of the respect you're so desperate for to validate yourself.
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Enrage


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
Enrage wrote:
Tiki could learn a lesson from Barry Sanders. When Barry was unhappy with the team, he simply retired. He never badmouthed the team or whined and complained. He didn't make himself a spectacle.

Barry = Pure class
Tiki = No class


and

Tom Coughlin = World Class Jerk


There's a difference between a hard taskmaster and a jerk. As far as I know, Coughlin is hard but fair and treated all players equally. It's kind of sad that grown men can't do the job they are paid very will to do. But looking at all of Tiki's drama I'm starting to wonder whether "grown man" is an apt description...
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