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Tiki: I'd still be playing if not for Coughlin
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GEE MEN wrote:


Merc, I'm not sue what the love fest is for Attim and the disdain for Coughlin but the facts are the facts regardless of source and those are indisputable. You can't dispute Coughlin's achievements in taking his teams to the playoffs EVERYWHERE HE'S COACHED. While you don't appreciate a coach that has consistently taken his team to the playoffs, I bet there are thousands upon thousands of Fins fans who would much rather have a coach take to the Fins to the playoffs, even if he is a jerk, than finish below .500. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Fins haven't been to the playoffs since 1999.


Wow, I have no idea how or why the need to bring the Dolphins into this. I am perfectly capable of discussing the Giants without relating it back to the Dolphins.

As to the playoffs point, coaches that reach the playoffs but don't win get fired. Secondly, Coughlin, in the NFL, has shown a propensity to have initial success followed by nose dive. Why? Because Coughlin loses his team with petty rules and unnecessary toughness.

GEE MEN wrote:

Do you want a sensitive coach and is tender with his players or an SOB who is effective at leading his club? Give me the SOB, this is football! And less than a third of the coaches have won a superbowl so Coughlin can't be that bad. Heck, one of the best coaching staffs in the NFL hasn't yet (Andy Reid) despite numerous opportunities.


Its not an issue of tough or tender. Its an issue of necessary and unnecessary. You mention Bill Parcells later in your post and there is no better example. Some guys need a tough guy and others need a sensitive one. The good coaches know which guys need which approach. Parcells was famous for having "his guys". Parcell's guys got days off, and were allowed latitudes other weren't because they were proven performers. Coughlin made no allowances. Had the team in full pads, pounding each other in practice well into the season. No wonder so many injuries befell the team last year and its no wonder so many guys vocalized their displeasure in him.

GEE MEN wrote:

If Coughlin wins a couple many opinions about how "horrible" a coach he is will change. And Merc, so what if grown men get alienated. They are multimillion dollar prima donnas. It isn't a right to play in the NFL, it's a privilige. Billy Martin alienated players in NY, the Reggie Jacksons of the world called him an -, even wanted to fight him in the dugout? so what. We're not that sensitive in NY. We are use to that. Shockey, Burress Strahan vent frustration after a game? So what, that's NY. Attim's problem isnt that he's venting after a loss. He is making allegedly making attacks for personal gain against the very people that made him who he was.


Just because something is a privilege and not a right, doesn't mean you have to accept injustice silently. The two are not connected. It may be a privilege to be able to drive, but it doesn't mean I need to be silent if a guy runs a stop light and destroys my ride. And Shockey's comments, as well as Burress's and Strahan's. They were calculated and not coincidence. Name one other player not on the Giants that called their coach out last year? Every star on the Giants did in one way or the other. And as I've said it happened to him in Jacksonville. Lastly just because Barber has something to gain by saying something doesn't mean it isn't true. Furthermore, there are far too many similar accounts to Barber's to assume it isn't true.

GEE MEN wrote:
As far as Attim's production, he can thank Coughlin first for curing hils ills, the OLINE second and then Attim third, particularly in the Washington game. Attim often went untouched in that game for 7 yards or so the OLINE opened gaping holes for hiim to run through. Obviously you weren't aware of that since you believe Attim "won" the game and "saved" Coughlin's job (the big guys never get the credit) From the outside looking in, you may think it was all Attim, but we who have followed his entire career and have seen more than 10 second ESPN highlights know far better.


GEE MEN, there is no way you should be expected to know this about me, but I assure you (and many fellow Dolphin fans can attest) I am one of the biggest champions for the offensive line. I am a firm believer in the notion that the game is often won in the trenches. However, Tiki Barber has proven effective behind some fairly pathetic lines in NY. I also don't think many people would call the last years offensive line in NY, stellar. However, Tiki was and is stellar. As I said before, Tiki has not raised his YPC that much higher than it was before Coughlin, Coughlin just uses him more than the last regime(Fassel) and therefore is more productive.

I also find it sadly ironic that I am having to espouse the virtues of Tiki's running ability to a Giants fan. Tiki is the greatest runner that has ever laced them up for the New York Giants. He was the single most legitimate player on the current offense of the Giants, bar none. My guess (not my wish) is that the Giants and their fans will miss him GREATLY this year. I happen to like Jacobs a lot, but he is no where near the game breaker Tiki was. No, Coughlin didn't make Tiki, and neither did the line. Tiki made Tiki, and he was VERY good before Coughlin came aboard. Even when he had to share carries with old butterbean, Ron Dayne. Saying that Coughlin made Tiki is absurd. No one makes a guy that runs for 5 yards a carry, on average, over an entire season. Especially not when that guy gets as many carries as Tiki did. Thats the stuff of legends. That Hall material. Guys in the Hall are self made. Thats not to say that didn't have incredible support along the way, but you don't rise that high on the shoulders of others. Not in the NFL.

Lastly, GEE MEN, I get why a fan would be annoyed with Tiki. I do. I'd punch Don Shula in the jaw if he bad mouthed my beloved Fish. I personally spank Dan Marino's ten year old daughter if she said a foul thing about the Dolphins. However, you have to ask yourself if what he is saying is true and if he has the right to say it. In this case the answer to both questions seems to me to be "yes". Unequivocally, yes.
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tdfast


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tiki's really trying to make a name for himself as one more mouthy reporter with very little to actually add but noise. First he calls out Eli, now the coach. What, is he writing a book and he wants to get publicity first????
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GEE MEN


Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

forty six & 2 wrote:
I care very little about what comes out of former player turned analysts mouths. Especially the likes of Michael Irvin, Jerome Bettis, and now Tiki Barber. He's just starting his media career and instead of earning respect by sharing good insight, accurate reporting, and astute football knowledge with the public, he's using it as a platform to air his personal feelings about former coaches and teammates, which is not only very unprofessional, it's bad journalism. I don't care how big of an a$$ Tom Coughlin is, he was his head coach. His job was to do what his coach said and he was paid handsomely for it. If Tiki really had any cojones and wasn't just searching for headlines and celebrity in his new gig, he wouldn't have gone into T.V., he would have went into coaching since he's so keen on ridiculing Tom Coughlin's coaching aptitude. Let's see what kind of record Tiki Barber would have as a coach, but instead the self proclaimed pretty boy chose the route of a wannabe T.V. star. Grow up and lose some of your vanity Tiki, become an actual contributor to the world of football analysts, and then you might actually get some of the respect you're so desperate for to validate yourself.


Very well said. Think you pretty much sum it up for all educated football fans.
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I will never defend Romo again. I'm done. We may only have a shot at the playoffs or what have you because of him, but he will NEVER put us over the hump.
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GEE MEN


Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
GEE MEN wrote:


Merc, I'm not sue what the love fest is for Attim and the disdain for Coughlin but the facts are the facts regardless of source and those are indisputable. You can't dispute Coughlin's achievements in taking his teams to the playoffs EVERYWHERE HE'S COACHED. While you don't appreciate a coach that has consistently taken his team to the playoffs, I bet there are thousands upon thousands of Fins fans who would much rather have a coach take to the Fins to the playoffs, even if he is a jerk, than finish below .500. Correct me if I'm wrong but the Fins haven't been to the playoffs since 1999.


Wow, I have no idea how or why the need to bring the Dolphins into this. I am perfectly capable of discussing the Giants without relating it back to the Dolphins.

As to the playoffs point, coaches that reach the playoffs but don't win get fired. Secondly, Coughlin, in the NFL, has shown a propensity to have initial success followed by nose dive. Why? Because Coughlin loses his team with petty rules and unnecessary toughness.

GEE MEN wrote:

Do you want a sensitive coach and is tender with his players or an SOB who is effective at leading his club? Give me the SOB, this is football! And less than a third of the coaches have won a superbowl so Coughlin can't be that bad. Heck, one of the best coaching staffs in the NFL hasn't yet (Andy Reid) despite numerous opportunities.


Its not an issue of tough or tender. Its an issue of necessary and unnecessary. You mention Bill Parcells later in your post and there is no better example. Some guys need a tough guy and others need a sensitive one. The good coaches know which guys need which approach. Parcells was famous for having "his guys". Parcell's guys got days off, and were allowed latitudes other weren't because they were proven performers. Coughlin made no allowances. Had the team in full pads, pounding each other in practice well into the season. No wonder so many injuries befell the team last year and its no wonder so many guys vocalized their displeasure in him.

GEE MEN wrote:

If Coughlin wins a couple many opinions about how "horrible" a coach he is will change. And Merc, so what if grown men get alienated. They are multimillion dollar prima donnas. It isn't a right to play in the NFL, it's a privilige. Billy Martin alienated players in NY, the Reggie Jacksons of the world called him an -, even wanted to fight him in the dugout? so what. We're not that sensitive in NY. We are use to that. Shockey, Burress Strahan vent frustration after a game? So what, that's NY. Attim's problem isnt that he's venting after a loss. He is making allegedly making attacks for personal gain against the very people that made him who he was.


Just because something is a privilege and not a right, doesn't mean you have to accept injustice silently. The two are not connected. It may be a privilege to be able to drive, but it doesn't mean I need to be silent if a guy runs a stop light and destroys my ride. And Shockey's comments, as well as Burress's and Strahan's. They were calculated and not coincidence. Name one other player not on the Giants that called their coach out last year? Every star on the Giants did in one way or the other. And as I've said it happened to him in Jacksonville. Lastly just because Barber has something to gain by saying something doesn't mean it isn't true. Furthermore, there are far too many similar accounts to Barber's to assume it isn't true.

GEE MEN wrote:
As far as Attim's production, he can thank Coughlin first for curing hils ills, the OLINE second and then Attim third, particularly in the Washington game. Attim often went untouched in that game for 7 yards or so the OLINE opened gaping holes for hiim to run through. Obviously you weren't aware of that since you believe Attim "won" the game and "saved" Coughlin's job (the big guys never get the credit) From the outside looking in, you may think it was all Attim, but we who have followed his entire career and have seen more than 10 second ESPN highlights know far better.


GEE MEN, there is no way you should be expected to know this about me, but I assure you (and many fellow Dolphin fans can attest) I am one of the biggest champions for the offensive line. I am a firm believer in the notion that the game is often won in the trenches. However, Tiki Barber has proven effective behind some fairly pathetic lines in NY. I also don't think many people would call the last years offensive line in NY, stellar. However, Tiki was and is stellar. As I said before, Tiki has not raised his YPC that much higher than it was before Coughlin, Coughlin just uses him more than the last regime(Fassel) and therefore is more productive.

I also find it sadly ironic that I am having to espouse the virtues of Tiki's running ability to a Giants fan. Tiki is the greatest runner that has ever laced them up for the New York Giants. He was the single most legitimate player on the current offense of the Giants, bar none. My guess (not my wish) is that the Giants and their fans will miss him GREATLY this year. I happen to like Jacobs a lot, but he is no where near the game breaker Tiki was. No, Coughlin didn't make Tiki, and neither did the line. Tiki made Tiki, and he was VERY good before Coughlin came aboard. Even when he had to share carries with old butterbean, Ron Dayne. Saying that Coughlin made Tiki is absurd. No one makes a guy that runs for 5 yards a carry, on average, over an entire season. Especially not when that guy gets as many carries as Tiki did. Thats the stuff of legends. That Hall material. Guys in the Hall are self made. Thats not to say that didn't have incredible support along the way, but you don't rise that high on the shoulders of others. Not in the NFL.

Lastly, GEE MEN, I get why a fan would be annoyed with Tiki. I do. I'd punch Don Shula in the jaw if he bad mouthed my beloved Fish. I personally spank Dan Marino's ten year old daughter if she said a foul thing about the Dolphins. However, you have to ask yourself if what he is saying is true and if he has the right to say it. In this case the answer to both questions seems to me to be "yes". Unequivocally, yes.


We shall agree to disagree then Merc. Great debate.
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Desperado82 wrote:
I will never defend Romo again. I'm done. We may only have a shot at the playoffs or what have you because of him, but he will NEVER put us over the hump.
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough, GEE MEN. I wish you and the Giants a great season (except when you go abroad). Wink
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

excellent discussion, guys.

very impressive.
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fgs5635


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
Fair enough, GEE MEN. I wish you and the Giants a great season (except when you go abroad). Wink


You made some great points and a lot of them are valid. However the deciding factor in this and the ultimatley the one that proves tiki is a jerk, is his attack on eli. It was childish, served no purpose and was a cheap shot against a good guy who had tons of respect for tiki.
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GEE MEN


Joined: 16 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mercury22 wrote:
Fair enough, GEE MEN. I wish you and the Giants a great season (except when you go abroad). Wink


Likewise Merc. (that's some home field advantage--hopefully you guys feel like a fish out of water Cool ).
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Desperado82 wrote:
I will never defend Romo again. I'm done. We may only have a shot at the playoffs or what have you because of him, but he will NEVER put us over the hump.
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mattmatt


Joined: 08 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eagles $5$ wrote:
jackbauer24 wrote:
tiki needs to shut up.

I agree, he needs to understand nobody is really missing him in NFL anymore. (Well maybe the Giants, but even they have moved on... and thats what Tiki needs to do)


I don't understand why he keeps coming out and saying stuff. He was knocking ESPN on his radio show the other day as well. It is childish. He is acting like a big baby that didn't get the new toy he wanted. Right now Tiki is worse than T.O. and Randy Moss combined (and that is hard to do.)
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mrscottso


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tikki is a joke! before tom came along he was an average back who couldnt hold onto the ball. then he has what 3 good seasons and it goes to his head? he is classless. even the way he announced that he was quitting. who does it like that? i hope his career goes down the toilet where he belongs!

and by the way, i cant wait till the 49ers kill the giants this year!
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