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Doug Pederson Confidence level?
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Hockey5djh


Joined: 08 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Doug Pederson Confidence level? Reply with quote

So I flipped on some sports talk radio yesterday for the first time in awhile and they were discussing the fact that the Brett Brown and his 75-253 (.229 Win %) record as a coach has a higher confidence level than Doug Pederson coming off his 7-9 (.438 Win %).

What gives?
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Hockey5djh


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally for me a coach doesn't go on the hot seat until year 3 (unless you take over the GM duties and radically dismantle the franchise). I thought a 7-9 record in year one with Dougy P was respectable given the talent level of the team. I understand that early season wins got our hopes up for something greater and that we were a couple plays away from a winning record but I expect to take another step in year 2.
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nlesthought


Joined: 21 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its a combo platter of confidence in him and the way the roster is shaped.

We have some vets in key positions and we're green in others. We don't have a dominate player on either side of the ball (I say that because you can scheme against a good pass rush).

The 6ers have uber amounts of talent on its roster it's just getting that talent on the court at the same time.
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Jroc04


Joined: 19 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brown has gotten a pass because of the complete lack of talent on the roster. In basketball, more than in other sports, talent is pretty much all you need. But when you don't have it, it doesn't matter what kind of coach, motivator of tactician you are. Brown has also graduated from the school of Popovich and we are all well aware he plans to instill the same team oriented game the Spurs have implemented for years. Mostly though, he hasn't had a competent team yet. This year will be telling. He'll have a very young roster that has never played together so he'll get a little more slack but this year, health in tact, should be a successful year for him. If not, then maybe eye brows start to raise.

For me, I'm not really high on Doug. Unfair to him, he's a bit of a rube and he was a terrible quarterback. But I'm willing to let him grow the team but I'm not real confident. He has a decent amount of talent to work with. Moreso this year than last. But I don't see a real cerebral coach when I watch games and listen to him talk. Hes made a few errors that make you scratch your head. I.E. challenging a 3rd and 4 to make it 3rd and 3 or whatever that was, havin Carson lead block on an end around the play after he passes concussion protocol, etc. In his defense, football strategy is magnified. He'll be way more scrutinized than in other sports. However, you can win a game if you're a good game manager with less talent. Basketball, not so much.

Bottom line really, Brown had had nothing to work with and showed glimpses last year with a semi competent lineup. And with his history and general excitement for the future, fans are behind him. But with Doug, we had the year pretty much expected outside of those first few games. And with the KC playoff debacle and a few blunders this past year the most recent memories of Doug do not instill confidence with fans. I don't necessarily think Brown is a better coach but he really hasn't had the opportunity to prove he can't exactly yet. Though the team did fairly well, all things considered, Doug has made more mistakes and missteps than Brown. But it could really just be that Brown wasn't expected to do anything while Doug, especially in this town, NEEDS to be successful even with subpar talent. Double standard maybe.
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Doug's a good guy, but ultimately not smart enough to be an NFL head coach.

That was on full display during his time in KC and very apparent in year 1.

I actually don't mind that he's got some big balls and plays aggressive, if that's his style, that's fine. But there was no consistency from him last year and the amount of sheer boneheaded decisions was pretty damning. I'm hoping that he improves but extremely skeptical.

Brett Brown on the other hand, as J mentioned, has had no talent to work with or very limited in last year's case. Despite that, he's gotten good effort out of the team every night and if you've watched them, especially last year, they were in a ton of games, but just lacked the people down the stretch to close out those games. Outside of his outrageously bad Bostonian accent, it is hard not to like Brett Brown.
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Hockey5djh


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its very easy to nitpick on minor decisions on both sides. I forget what game it was but there was a Sixers game last season that they had a last second inbound down by one score and Brett Brown drew up a play that set Embiid to take a three point shot. I know Embiid was the dude last year but he really shouldn't be the guy in that situation.

As far as the talent argument, what did Doug have to work with? A rookie QB? Some solid linebackers? There really wasn't much talent on the Eagles last year and he still fell just short of a .500 record. He had a team pretty devoid of talent playing pretty well if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong, i'm completely playing devil's advocate here but I don't understand the huge disparity between the confidence in the two guys outside of liking one better than the other because of what he says in press conferences.
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hockey5djh wrote:
Its very easy to nitpick on minor decisions on both sides. I forget what game it was but there was a Sixers game last season that they had a last second inbound down by one score and Brett Brown drew up a play that set Embiid to take a three point shot. I know Embiid was the dude last year but he really shouldn't be the guy in that situation.

As far as the talent argument, what did Doug have to work with? A rookie QB? Some solid linebackers? There really wasn't much talent on the Eagles last year and he still fell just short of a .500 record. He had a team pretty devoid of talent playing pretty well if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong, i'm completely playing devil's advocate here but I don't understand the huge disparity between the confidence in the two guys outside of liking one better than the other because of what he says in press conferences.


Comparing football and basketball coaches to begin with is pretty silly, considering a football coach has a far greater impact on the overall game. But from what I see from Brett Brown, I like his system, I like his philosophy on developing talent, I like the secondary talent that he has helped develop (RoCo, Holmes, McConnell) and I like his willingness to tell it like it is.

On the other hand, Pederson wont admit his obvious mistakes (see KC playoff game against NE, see swing pass to Darren Sproles / overall conservative gameplan in Cowboys game). He's shown no aptitude for game or clock management a trait that plagued his mentor (this one really sticks me, because generally, if you see your boss doing something you don't like, you do everything in your power to do it differently when you're in that role. It just screams lack of overall awareness to me.).

It's not all bad, Pederson seems to do a solid job of getting his guys ready to play and installing a sound gameplan. Outside of the Bengals game, I can't think of another one where it felt like the team mailed it in on him and a lot of that game had to do with Carson playing abysmal football. You're also right in that he didn't have a ton of talent (although people said the same thing about the team Chip Kelly inherited), especially offensively to work with last year. He had a rookie QB that had plenty of ups and downs. Going into Year 2, Howie has done everything in his power to give Doug the better assets on this team. This offseason was all offense, so we ought to see a considerable improvement for last year, though it may take them 2 seasons to fully gel. But overall, I'm less concerned with the productivity of our offense and more concerned with how he manages the game.

Lastly, I think a big part of my pessimism on Doug stems from the fact that I didn't agree with the hire from day one. Doug's overall lack of track record made me nervous from the beginning and it felt like Lurie hiring an Andy Reid replica just to placate the Chip Kelly tenure. After year one, nothing he did quelled any of my initial concerns about him, in fact, I'd say they worsened them in many ways. I think there is an enormous learning curve to be an NFL HC, let alone a good one. And he's about as far down on the list of qualified HC's as I could imagine.
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Hockey5djh


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:
Comparing football and basketball coaches to begin with is pretty silly, considering a football coach has a far greater impact on the overall game.


100% agree, just trying to stir up some sort of conversation on a pretty dead forum until training camp starts


BLick12 wrote:
Lastly, I think a big part of my pessimism on Doug stems from the fact that I didn't agree with the hire from day one. Doug's overall lack of track record made me nervous from the beginning and it felt like Lurie hiring an Andy Reid replica just to placate the Chip Kelly tenure. After year one, nothing he did quelled any of my initial concerns about him, in fact, I'd say they worsened them in many ways. I think there is an enormous learning curve to be an NFL HC, let alone a good one. And he's about as far down on the list of qualified HC's as I could imagine.


Yea, the whole "Bring back Andy" movement and the fact that he had no other interviews was worrisome but I'll still give the guy a chance to prove himself before I bury him.
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Jroc04


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hockey5djh wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
Comparing football and basketball coaches to begin with is pretty silly, considering a football coach has a far greater impact on the overall game.


100% agree, just trying to stir up some sort of conversation on a pretty dead forum until training camp starts


BLick12 wrote:
Lastly, I think a big part of my pessimism on Doug stems from the fact that I didn't agree with the hire from day one. Doug's overall lack of track record made me nervous from the beginning and it felt like Lurie hiring an Andy Reid replica just to placate the Chip Kelly tenure. After year one, nothing he did quelled any of my initial concerns about him, in fact, I'd say they worsened them in many ways. I think there is an enormous learning curve to be an NFL HC, let alone a good one. And he's about as far down on the list of qualified HC's as I could imagine.


Yea, the whole "Bring back Andy" movement and the fact that he had no other interviews was worrisome but I'll still give the guy a chance to prove himself before I bury him.


I completely agree with the Lurie point. At the time, I called it the "pendulum swing". Andy was stagnant and tired. Lurie wanted to be ahead of the curve and swung completely left and hired a college "genius" with all new age systems and preparations. After that imploded, he scrambled back to the right where he was warm and comfortable. But this, in the end, could be just as big as a mistake as Chip.
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jroc04 wrote:
Hockey5djh wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
Comparing football and basketball coaches to begin with is pretty silly, considering a football coach has a far greater impact on the overall game.


100% agree, just trying to stir up some sort of conversation on a pretty dead forum until training camp starts


BLick12 wrote:
Lastly, I think a big part of my pessimism on Doug stems from the fact that I didn't agree with the hire from day one. Doug's overall lack of track record made me nervous from the beginning and it felt like Lurie hiring an Andy Reid replica just to placate the Chip Kelly tenure. After year one, nothing he did quelled any of my initial concerns about him, in fact, I'd say they worsened them in many ways. I think there is an enormous learning curve to be an NFL HC, let alone a good one. And he's about as far down on the list of qualified HC's as I could imagine.


Yea, the whole "Bring back Andy" movement and the fact that he had no other interviews was worrisome but I'll still give the guy a chance to prove himself before I bury him.


I completely agree with the Lurie point. At the time, I called it the "pendulum swing". Andy was stagnant and tired. Lurie wanted to be ahead of the curve and swung completely left and hired a college "genius" with all new age systems and preparations. After that imploded, he scrambled back to the right where he was warm and comfortable. But this, in the end, could be just as big as a mistake as Chip.


Yep. And Hockey, it's not that I'm not willing to give Doug a chance. I think you need to give any HC 3 years to realistically prove if they can do the job and get the right players for their system. I'll give him that time and a fair chance, but based on my initial expectations and concerns, I can't give him a pass for the things in my last post if he's actively making those mistakes on gameday.
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Danger


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brett Brown's first three seasons coaching aside from January 2017 have been the organization tanking.
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SenorWentz


Joined: 17 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:
Hockey5djh wrote:
Its very easy to nitpick on minor decisions on both sides. I forget what game it was but there was a Sixers game last season that they had a last second inbound down by one score and Brett Brown drew up a play that set Embiid to take a three point shot. I know Embiid was the dude last year but he really shouldn't be the guy in that situation.

As far as the talent argument, what did Doug have to work with? A rookie QB? Some solid linebackers? There really wasn't much talent on the Eagles last year and he still fell just short of a .500 record. He had a team pretty devoid of talent playing pretty well if you ask me.

Don't get me wrong, i'm completely playing devil's advocate here but I don't understand the huge disparity between the confidence in the two guys outside of liking one better than the other because of what he says in press conferences.


Comparing football and basketball coaches to begin with is pretty silly, considering a football coach has a far greater impact on the overall game. But from what I see from Brett Brown, I like his system, I like his philosophy on developing talent, I like the secondary talent that he has helped develop (RoCo, Holmes, McConnell) and I like his willingness to tell it like it is.

On the other hand, Pederson wont admit his obvious mistakes (see KC playoff game against NE, see swing pass to Darren Sproles / overall conservative gameplan in Cowboys game). He's shown no aptitude for game or clock management a trait that plagued his mentor (this one really sticks me, because generally, if you see your boss doing something you don't like, you do everything in your power to do it differently when you're in that role. It just screams lack of overall awareness to me.).

It's not all bad, Pederson seems to do a solid job of getting his guys ready to play and installing a sound gameplan. Outside of the Bengals game, I can't think of another one where it felt like the team mailed it in on him and a lot of that game had to do with Carson playing abysmal football. You're also right in that he didn't have a ton of talent (although people said the same thing about the team Chip Kelly inherited), especially offensively to work with last year. He had a rookie QB that had plenty of ups and downs. Going into Year 2, Howie has done everything in his power to give Doug the better assets on this team. This offseason was all offense, so we ought to see a considerable improvement for last year, though it may take them 2 seasons to fully gel. But overall, I'm less concerned with the productivity of our offense and more concerned with how he manages the game.

Lastly, I think a big part of my pessimism on Doug stems from the fact that I didn't agree with the hire from day one. Doug's overall lack of track record made me nervous from the beginning and it felt like Lurie hiring an Andy Reid replica just to placate the Chip Kelly tenure. After year one, nothing he did quelled any of my initial concerns about him, in fact, I'd say they worsened them in many ways. I think there is an enormous learning curve to be an NFL HC, let alone a good one. And he's about as far down on the list of qualified HC's as I could imagine.


Pretty debatable that basketball coaches are just as important if not more important than football coaches. Talent wins in every sport- look at New England. Best QB to ever play and they go to the super bowl just about every year. Have won five championships. LeBron best talent maybe ever and he has won three. A lot goes into having a good basketball team and football team. Football coaches have coordinators and the head coach can be completely specialized on offense or defense and hire a coordinator to handle the other 50% of the game. Basketball coaches have to develop ball screen coverages defensively and ball screen attacks offensively and have to coach both sides of the ball. A lot goes into football absolutely, but you have a lot of help from position coaches and coordinators to make sure everything is on the same page.

I guess the point I am making is that having a good basketball coach is incredibly important. It's easy to use LeBron James and say "well is Lue that good of a coach?" Lue isn't great but let's remember that LeBron James may be the greatest athlete of all time. Steve Kerr completely changed the Warriors offensively and they took the step that next year and won the finals when Mark Jackson didn't accomplish much in the playoffs with virtually the same team. Basketball philosophy is crucial nowadays especially with the amount of teams installing the spread pick and roll. A coach must know how to create constant advantages offensively and limit them defensively. A lot factors into what type of coverage you're going to play and how you execute and breakdown that ball screen coverage.

Football coaches are obviously extremely crucial. I think PEDs will be fine. He seems to constantly be looking for ways to adapt and find new concepts for the offense. Football coaches have more responsibility and detail, but they also have a huge staff to help delegate all of this.
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Bednarik60


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if we don't win 6-7 games he deserves to be fired and is a bad coach barring any freak injuries to key players like Carson, Peters, Cox, Logan, Jefferies, Hicks. But If he gets 10 wins out of this team, i would consider him a good coach.
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ninjapirate


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can see with brown that his guys play hard no matter what even when they are outclasses by the opposing guys on the court. He gets the most of his guys every night.


Doug is just a dumb andy retread that seemed like he couldnt readjust after the nfl adjusted to him.
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Bednarik60


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could easily see him becoming the coach of the Browns after this year Laughing
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