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LG's 2016 All Time Draft Super Bowl: Pensacola vs Washington

 
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Who wins?
Pensacola
62%
 62%  [ 5 ]
Washington
37%
 37%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 8

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LieutenantGains


Joined: 14 Oct 2016
Posts: 568
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:26 pm    Post subject: LG's 2016 All Time Draft Super Bowl: Pensacola vs Washington Reply with quote

Please vote for who you think would win. Polls will be open for 3 days. Discussion is always welcome. GM's can comment with a game plan below.




Pensacola


COACHING STAFF

HC- Bill Belichick
OC- Jon Gruden
DC- Wade Phillips


OFFENSE

QB- Steve Young
QB- Aaron Rodgers
RB- Jim Brown
RB- Terrell Davis
FB- Tony Richardson

WR- Reggie Wayne
WR- Julio Jones
WR- John Stallworth
TE- Rob Gronkowski
TE- Dave Casper

LT- Walter Jones
LG- Steve Hutchinson
C- Dwight Stephenson
RG- Alan Faneca
RT- Bob St. Clair
OL- Mike Kenn

DEFENSE

DE- Howie Long
NT- Ted Washington
DE- Lee Roy Selmon
DT- Curley Culp

OLB- DeMarcus Ware
ILB- Randy Gradishar
ILB- Patrick Willis
OLB- Lawrence Taylor
LB- Karl Mecklenburg

CB- Champ Bailey
CB- Charles Woodson
CB- Willie Brown
SS- Ken Houston
FS- Ed Reed
DB- Carnell Lake

SPECIAL TEAMS

KR/PR- Josh Cribbs
K- Justin Tucker
P- Ray Guy


Washington Redskins

COACHING STAFF

HC Joe Gibbs
OC Don Coryell
DC Pete Carroll

OFFENSE

QB Brett Favre
QB Kurt Warner
RB Ladainian Tomlinson
RB Adrian Peterson
FB Lorenzo Neal

WR Calvin Johnson
WR Larry Fitzgerald
WR Torry Holt
WR Antonio Brown
TE Kellen Winslow Sr.

LT Jonathan Odgen
LG Brian Waters
OC Kevin Mawae
RG Will Shields
RT Erik Williams
Bench: G-T Jim Parker

DEFENSE

LDE Reggie White
LDT Vince Wilfork
RDT Cortez Kennedy
RDE Jason Taylor
Bench: DT/DE Haloti Ngata

SAM Von Miller
MIKE Mike Singletary
WILL Derrick Brooks
Bench: OLB/ILB Julian Peterson

SS Troy Polamalu
FS Brian Dawkins
DB Kenny Easley

CB Rod Woodson
CB Darrell Green
NB Eric Allen

SPECIAL TEAMS
KR/PR Gale Sayers
K Sebastian Janikowski
P Sammy Baugh
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JohnnyV22


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 2192
Location: FLO-rida
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks LG for putting on a great draft. Excited to be in the Chip here. Thanks to all the other GMs for being great opponents. This was a fun draft and I think everyone did a great job putting their teams together.
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JohnnyV22


Joined: 16 Nov 2015
Posts: 2192
Location: FLO-rida
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok I'm getting my butt whipped so far so let me defend my team a bit here to try and mount a comeback!

He's got BB coaching so that's obviously a plus for him, but I have the only coach who's ever won 3 super bowls with 3 different starting QB's, so I'm really not that far behind imo. Gibbs was adaptable and awesome.

QB's - I look at this as about a push - I really like his QB's as Young was my other target besides Favre and Rodgers was my other target before Warner as a backup.

RB's - yes I know he has Jim Brown. I like my combo of thunder/lightning a little better I think I might have more versatility out of my backfield with All Day and LDT. Fullbacks are about a push both awesome. Love running behind Lorenzo Neal.

WR's - I think I take the cake here with Megatron, Fitzy, AB, and Torry Holt. Love my combo there.

TE's - he takes that obviously with Gronk and Casper over Winslow

OLine...as I see it, Washington + at LT and RG, Pensacola + at LG and C, and about a push at RT, so overall pretty close.

so I think overall my offense is slightly better because of the advantages of a more versatile backfield and better WR's

on defense, I see it this way...

DLine - Washington ++ - I think this is my biggest team strength as I feel I have the best DLine in the draft

LB - Pensacola+ - ok he's def got me beat here with LT, Ware, and Willis....BUT...my core of Brooks (goat 4-3 weakside LB), Singletary (legend), and Miller (legend in making) is no slouch

DB - I think its extremely close but Pensacola gets the edge - call it the Ed Reed factor. At the end of the day, I think I like my secondary covering his WR a litttttle better than I like his secondary covering mine, even though they are awesome. He does have very accurate QBs though, so that is a plus on his side. No bones about it, Favre is a gunslinger and might make a mistake or two. I just think with my WR and backfield, and OLine, we'll be able to get some points on the board.

Overall I have our defenses at about a push.

I think this would be a real BATTLE and a little closer than the vote is showing at the moment.



Welcome any comments replies to this...
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Crickett


Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 4272
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV22 wrote:
He's got BB coaching so that's obviously a plus for him, but I have the only coach who's ever won 3 super bowls with 3 different starting QB's, so I'm really not that far behind imo. Gibbs was adaptable and awesome.


Sorry, I gotta give him the edge at coaching. You know BB is my #1 coach of all time, but I love the combo of Gruden with Steve Young. I may have your quarterbacks rated higher, but I think his are a better fit. That's not to say yours are a bad fit, but I think fit better. With Gruden, I think he zigged where Sax zagged. At first, I complained about both his and Sax's coaching. Bill to my knowledge has never run a WCO and Steve Young is a WCO quarterback. But Gruden is a WCO offensive coordinator, so that fits better since Bill can focus on defense. Despite saying that Bill is my #1 coach of all time, there is someone you could have drafted at defensive coordinator who would have given you the edge in my book. Oh well.

JohnnyV22 wrote:
QB's - I look at this as about a push - I really like his QB's as Young was my other target besides Favre and Rodgers was my other target before Warner as a backup.

From a pure ranking perspective, I have your quarterbacks ranked higher than his. No I don't have Warner ranked higher than Young, but I do have him ranked higher than Rodgers and I have Favre ahead of Young.

JohnnyV22 wrote:
RB's - yes I know he has Jim Brown. I like my combo of thunder/lightning a little better I think I might have more versatility out of my backfield with All Day and LDT. Fullbacks are about a push both awesome. Love running behind Lorenzo Neal.

I disagree with you here as well. I don't think you have a thunder/lightning combo at all. I think you have two elite every down backs who ran with both speed and power. And I see his running backs the same way. The only way I can give you the definitive edge is if I am able to include Sayers are part of your running back trio.

I have Tony Richardson ranked ahead of Lorenzo Neal in terms of run blocking. Although to be fair, I do like re-uniting players who played together for real and picking LDT and Neal does that.


JohnnyV22 wrote:
WR's - I think I take the cake here with Megatron, Fitzy, AB, and Torry Holt. Love my combo there.

TE's - he takes that obviously with Gronk and Casper over Winslow

Agreed, but I think it's a bit more than just saying his are better. You may have Lorenzo Neal, but you don't really have an elite blocking TE whereas he has two very good ones. Given his outside linebackers, that doesn't bode well for you despite your very good offensive line. I'm not a huge fan of Fitz in your offense scheme, but I'm not a huge fan of Stallworth in his either. I won't argue if there were better receivers for either of you, but I do think there were better fits for both.


JohnnyV22 wrote:
OLine...as I see it, Washington + at LT and RG, Pensacola + at LG and C, and about a push at RT, so overall pretty close.

I see left tackle as a push. Between Jonathan Ogden, Willie Roaf and Walter Jones, I can't tell you which was the best. I can say that Roaf was my favorite, but if someone argued that any of them are better than the other two, I wouldn't really have a rebuttal for anything. I might have given your team the edge if you had traded for Roaf instead of Ogden. As I've mentioned before, I do like re-uniting players who played together and putting Roaf, Shields and Waters on the same line is something I think at least a couple of us want to do in one of these mock drafts at least once.



JohnnyV22 wrote:
DLine - Washington ++ - I think this is my biggest team strength as I feel I have the best DLine in the draft

I would agree with you, but I don't think it's as big of an edge as you think. Pensicola has a number of players who are considered to be the best of all time when talking about the 3-4 defense. Overall I think your line is better and it's been a large driving force in my voting for you up until now, but I can't ignore that.

JohnnyV22 wrote:
LB - Pensacola+ - ok he's def got me beat here with LT, Ware, and Willis....BUT...my core of Brooks (goat 4-3 weakside LB), Singletary (legend), and Miller (legend in making) is no slouch

And thus is bad part of the double edged sword of drafting active players. The good: We're more familiar with them. The bad: We haven't seen the entirety of their career, so we can only rank them on what they've done so far.


JohnnyV22 wrote:
DB - I think its extremely close but Pensacola gets the edge - call it the Ed Reed factor. At the end of the day, I think I like my secondary covering his WR a litttttle better than I like his secondary covering mine, even though they are awesome. He does have very accurate QBs though, so that is a plus on his side. No bones about it, Favre is a gunslinger and might make a mistake or two. I just think with my WR and backfield, and OLine, we'll be able to get some points on the board.

I would say he has the edge at safety, but not a huge one and you have the edge at cornerback, but again not a big one.


Looking at these defenses, I can't honestly envision either offense having much luck running or passing the ball. I have to give Pensicola the slight edge due to rather trivial things, that I think would give him the slight edge at the end of the day. I probably would have voted for you if you'd gone with Seifert instead of Carroll and a second TE instead of Fitz. To be fair though, if you had done that, I'm not sure other people would have voted you this far.
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JohnnyV22


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As usual I agree with about half of what you say she disagree with the the other half. To each his own but those are some suspect reasons to not vote for someone in my opinion. Pete Carroll has coached literally every single facet/variation/wrinkle of a 4-3 defense - not just cover 3 - he is a great DC for my team both in temperament and fit. And why do we bother to draft an extra OLineman if they can't be in there for extra protection when needed? So I'm a Brent jones or Todd heap away from winning?? Cmon. There's value to having the extra WR on the field in lieu of the extra TE. Granted Jim Parker is not going to catch any balls but he is going to block a heck of a lot better than Gronk or Casper if called upon as an extra lineman. I think I drafted enough protection for this format. Granted he's got LT and Ware coming the edge so he's going to be a handful for anyone to pick up.

Not sure what's hard to see about thunder / lightning with AP / LDT. Yes they are both every down backs. But if you had to say which one is the battering ram would you not say AP? How many freaking tackles has that guy broke in the last 10 years. He's not equal to Jim Brown but he's a pretty good modern day equivalent. Would you not say that LDT is a better pass catcher and faster / quicker more agile than TD? That's what I meant when I said more versatile. That's my definition of thunder / lightning - maybe yours is different.

Also whatever hang up you have on Larry Fitzgerald in my offense continues to sound silly. It discredits your often very good analysis to continually say that he's not going to be a good fit. He would fit any offense. ANY offense. You leave zero room for innovation you have everything in a nice little box and are not taking into account that Coryell could work with Fitzy and figure out a way to get the most out of his talent.
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RaykwonDaChef


Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Posts: 6125
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Close contest - went with Pensacola. That defense is a Juggernaut with familiarity with Wade Phillips to boot. I also like their O-Line better slightly.
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Crickett


Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 4272
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV22 wrote:
As usual I agree with about half of what you say she disagree with the the other half. To each his own but those are some suspect reasons to not vote for someone in my opinion. Pete Carroll has coached literally every single facet/variation/wrinkle of a 4-3 defense - not just cover 3 - he is a great DC for my team both in temperament and fit.

I don't think any defense uses a pure 4-3 or a pure 3-4 or a pure cover 2 and so on and so forth anymore. But Carroll's primary defense (as far as I know) is a 4-3 under with a cover three shell and I took that into account.

JohnnyV22 wrote:
And why do we bother to draft an extra OLineman if they can't be in there for extra protection when needed?

Because injuries happen and a backup linemen allows you to account for that along your offensive line as well as goal line formations. Why did you draft backup quarterbacks? I mean aside from addressing the issue that if you didn't draft them, you could wait until the final round and be assured that a top ten all time QB would be available.

JohnnyV22 wrote:
So I'm a Brent jones or Todd heap away from winning?? Cmon.

Ehhh, I wouldn't include Todd Heap specifically for his blocking ability; but when you have two teams as close as we have here, things like that can be enough to differentiate one team from the other.

JohnnyV22 wrote:
There's value to having the extra WR on the field in lieu of the extra TE. Granted Jim Parker is not going to catch any balls but he is going to block a heck of a lot better than Gronk or Casper if called upon as an extra lineman.

But no one is going to have to account for Jim Parker as a threat in the receiving game. Gronk and Casper do both well whereas KWSr and Parker only do one well.

JohnnyV22 wrote:
I think I drafted enough protection for this format. Granted he's got LT and Ware coming the edge so he's going to be a handful for anyone to pick up.


You have Reggie White, Jason Taylor and Von Miller and they're going to be a handful for anyone to pick up too. But he did a better job at max protecting for his quarterbacks than you did imo.

JohnnyV22 wrote:
Not sure what's hard to see about thunder / lightning with AP / LDT. Yes they are both every down backs. But if you had to say which one is the battering ram would you not say AP? How many freaking tackles has that guy broke in the last 10 years. He's not equal to Jim Brown but he's a pretty good modern day equivalent. Would you not say that LDT is a better pass catcher and faster / quicker more agile than TD? That's what I meant when I said more versatile. That's my definition of thunder / lightning - maybe yours is different.


To me, the quintessential thunder/lightning combo in this draft was Buffalo's combo of Barry Sanders and Jerome Bettis. If I had to say which was the better battering ram between your running backs, I'd say Peterson. But I've seen LDT plow through enough short yardage situations and break enough tackles to know he can do it just as well. Likewise Adrian Peterson was a 4.4 flat RB coming out of college and if you're just counting him as the battering ram he's been recently, you're forgetting the kind of speed and elusiveness he used to have. If you're just using LDT as a speed back and just using Peterson as a battering ram, you're selling both of them well short of what they were capable of.


JohnnyV22 wrote:
Also whatever hang up you have on Larry Fitzgerald in my offense continues to sound silly.


So here's my hang up with Fitz. The Air Coryell offense relies on it's receivers to use their speed to get down the field quickly. Larry Fitzgerald had 4.6 speed coming out of college. There have been exceptions to that (Art Monk as I have mentioned before), but I don't like having essentially five WR's (because KWSr is a receiving TE) on a team with the number of limited roster spots and having a slower receiver on an offense so reliant on speed.

In the same way I don't really like having two deep threat burners on an offense so reliant on short precise routes and yards after catch. Yeah there have been times where that kind of player has thrived in the WCO, but I would prefer seeing someone who was known as much for his routes as well as his speed.

So again, in case someone reads this and thinks these are the entirety of my thoughts on Fitz. He's clearly an all-time great receiver and top five of the 2000's behind only the likes of Moss, T.O. and Harrison (and Holt IMO, but I have Holt rated higher than most), but I just don't think he's that great of a fit for Air Coryell. There have been times where slower receivers have excelled in that offense, such as Art Monk, but you disputed that Fitz would be used in that role.


JohnnyV22 wrote:
Also whatever hang up you have on Larry Fitzgerald in my offense continues to sound silly. It discredits your often very good analysis to continually say that he's not going to be a good fit. He would fit any offense. ANY offense. You leave zero room for innovation you have everything in a nice little box and are not taking into account that Coryell could work with Fitzy and figure out a way to get the most out of his talent.


Dude, you accuse me of rigid 'in the box' thinking while declaring Adrian Peterson and LaDainian Tomlinson are a thunder and lightning combo.
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JohnnyV22


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats to LG on the chip!
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LieutenantGains


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV22 wrote:
Congrats to LG on the chip!


Thanks. Congrats to you as well. Thank you to everyone who participated.
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JohnnyV22


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crickett wrote:
So again, in case someone reads this and thinks these are the entirety of my thoughts on Fitz. He's clearly an all-time great receiver....but I just don't think he's that great of a fit for Air Coryell. There have been times where slower receivers have excelled in that offense, such as Art Monk, but you disputed that Fitz would be used in that role.

Quote:
"The players, I just try to fit my offense to the players I've got." - Don Coryell
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Crickett


Joined: 27 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV22 wrote:
Crickett wrote:
How well does Larry Fitzgerald really fit Don Coryell's Air Coryell offense? I understand you might want to make him your Art Monk since you have Gibbs (in which case, he should probably be in the slot), but there were better fits available imo.


2. I think that Larry Fitz would fit any passing offense, like ever. He is super versatile, athletic, and can do just about anything on the field. He can fill in the slot if need be, but those duties primarily go to Antonio Brown.

3. There is only one Art Monk. I'm not trying to recreate him - Larry is fine just being Larry

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