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THE DUKE


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A hot mess of a final season, but I still enjoyed it. I'll always love seasons 1-2, but from 3 through 7 it was a steady decline.

To illustrate how much it declined and how predictable it became, I prioritized watching the mid season finales of The Flash and Arrow before I got around to watching the series finale of SoA.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finally got around to watching the series finale. LOVED the series as a whole, even if it did get a bit long at the end.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The LBC wrote:
TankWilliams wrote:
I honestly enjoyed it. I thought it wrapped things up fairly nicely. Symbolism was over the top, and I'm not sure how religion should be tied in to Jax or any of the show, but that was my only real problem with the finale.

That was really my biggest complaint (aside from the weak CGI of the impact - I'd have honestly preferred they just cut away to the "crow's view" of the impact from overhead), but that's been a criticism for much of this season and even going back (though less so) the two before it. And then again, anyone who is familiar with the episodes that Sutter was most responsible for on The Shield (and anyone whose been paying any attention to this series, for that matter) should know by now that subtlety is not Kurt Sutter's strong point or preference.

There was a part of me, until I remembered that Sutter was both writer and director for the finale, that was getting highly suspicious that they'd just end it with the crow flying away after pulling out from the shot of Jax being chased by the cops and leave the ending ambiguous. But Sutter's not a "what if's" guy.


Agreed. I figured they'd end it that way.

But you had to have Vic Mackey take care of his business.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketchup wrote:
How did he take the cowardly way out? How did he not face the consequences of his actions?


By choosing not to face mayhem. He had no issues carrying it out on Clay then he can't face it himself. The whole notion that he was "sparing the club" the pain of doing it is BS. All it will do is cause strife with the other charters especially Indian Hills who in all honesty should have been the ones delivering mayhem. Let's not be naive here either... he chose a painless death. Something he certainly didn't give his victims. Something he didn't deserve. That is a cowards way out no matter how you try and spin it. Jax was a megalomaniac serial killer who had no regard for human life. He deserved to suffer like most of his victims did.


Ketchup wrote:
So if he was going to take the cowardly way out, he would still be alive.


No confessing to the DA and atoning for his atrocities by wasting away in a jail cell as Marilyn Manson's new squeeze would have been more honorable then giving yourself a painless death.
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Art_Vandalay


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Ketchup wrote:
How did he take the cowardly way out? How did he not face the consequences of his actions?


By choosing not to face mayhem. He had no issues carrying it out on Clay then he can't face it himself. The whole notion that he was "sparing the club" the pain of doing it is BS. All it will do is cause strife with the other charters especially Indian Hills who in all honesty should have been the ones delivering mayhem.

Clay killed a member of his own charter, a members wife, and tried to kill Tara. No one (except Bobby initially) had a problem carrying out Mayhem on Clay. Jax's retaliation got a lot of people wrongfully killed, but that was more of Gemma's fault. And the other charter just wanted him dead. So, for his charter to claim he shot Happy, ran off, and got hit by a truck, I don't think that would cause any issues.

Shockey1979 wrote:
Let's not be naive here either... he chose a painless death. Something he certainly didn't give his victims. Something he didn't deserve. That is a cowards way out no matter how you try and spin it. Jax was a megalomaniac serial killer who had no regard for human life. He deserved to suffer like most of his victims did.

He did deserve to die, but I disagree with the suffering part.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art_Vandalay wrote:
Clay killed a member of his own charter, a members wife, and tried to kill Tara. No one (except Bobby initially) had a problem carrying out Mayhem on Clay. Jax's retaliation got a lot of people wrongfully killed, but that was more of Gemma's fault. And the other charter just wanted him dead. So, for his charter to claim he shot Happy, ran off, and got hit by a truck, I don't think that would cause any issues.


Jax is just as guilty.. (if not more) for club related atrocities then Clay. That's the point I am making. He had no issues carrying out mayhem on Clay which was warranted then goes and makes moves that results in a club president being killed unwarranted, Bobby being killed, whoever that member was at the warehouse being killed, killing Unser in cold blood... trust me this isn't a defense for Clay. And it was more then Bobby that was against mayhem for Clay. For a while there was a whole stable of members that supported Clay against Jax including Tig and those other dudes that were doing the home invasions. Clay deserved what he got, so did Gemma. I'm not privy to what biker gang protocol is but logic would tell me it should have been Samcro delivering Jax to Indian Hills for mayhem to be carried out. They probably decided to let Samcro handle it out of respect. Then they go and pull a stunt like that? Of course we will never know but I can see that causing rifts within the two charters. Plus the killing spree Jax went on while wearing his cut will bring down some wonderful PR on the club. I'm sure the Charming residents really appreciate the multiple murder sites around town carried out by their resident motorcycle club. Real heroes of the community. Laughing

The whole notion that Jax did what's best for the club is just so absurd I can't even believe some people are trying to defend it. Jax did what was best for himself. He carried out vengeance and then gave himself a nice little painless death. Bravo
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Ketchup


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well whatever. You see it one way and I see it another. If it makes you happy to think Jackson was a coward, by all means.
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bigjohnson2009


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Art_Vandalay wrote:
Clay killed a member of his own charter, a members wife, and tried to kill Tara. No one (except Bobby initially) had a problem carrying out Mayhem on Clay. Jax's retaliation got a lot of people wrongfully killed, but that was more of Gemma's fault. And the other charter just wanted him dead. So, for his charter to claim he shot Happy, ran off, and got hit by a truck, I don't think that would cause any issues.


Jax is just as guilty.. (if not more) for club related atrocities then Clay. That's the point I am making. He had no issues carrying out mayhem on Clay which was warranted then goes and makes moves that results in a club president being killed unwarranted, Bobby being killed, whoever that member was at the warehouse being killed, killing Unser in cold blood... trust me this isn't a defense for Clay. And it was more then Bobby that was against mayhem for Clay. For a while there was a whole stable of members that supported Clay against Jax including Tig and those other dudes that were doing the home invasions. Clay deserved what he got, so did Gemma. I'm not privy to what biker gang protocol is but logic would tell me it should have been Samcro delivering Jax to Indian Hills for mayhem to be carried out. They probably decided to let Samcro handle it out of respect. Then they go and pull a stunt like that? Of course we will never know but I can see that causing rifts within the two charters. Plus the killing spree Jax went on while wearing his cut will bring down some wonderful PR on the club. I'm sure the Charming residents really appreciate the multiple murder sites around town carried out by their resident motorcycle club. Real heroes of the community. Laughing

The whole notion that Jax did what's best for the club is just so absurd I can't even believe some people are trying to defend it. Jax did what was best for himself. He carried out vengeance and then gave himself a nice little painless death. Bravo


Lol I think the community would be fine that Jax killed a couple criminals in public. You really don't like him and it's showing.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigjohnson2009 wrote:
Lol I think the community would be fine that Jax killed a couple criminals in public. You really don't like him and it's showing.


I don't like any of them. That's the problem with this show. There was no hero. There wasn't even an antihero to cheer for. Who exactly was the protagonist on this show? Whatever was great about this show died off when the likes of Opie, Piney, and Tara were killed off. The majority of the rest were all nothing but low life criminal thugs operating under the guise of a community caring establishment.

And yea ok I am sure the people of Charming are "fine" with multiple murders all over their city. I'm sure they love the IRA, ABA, and all the other fun criminal groups operating in their city too. I'd love to watch an episode of the Charming local nightly news where stories of dead bodies slain in the street are the norm. But hey Samcro throws a BBQ for the community once a year and they keep the "balance" in the city so we will let them do their thing. Riiiighhht
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
bigjohnson2009 wrote:
Lol I think the community would be fine that Jax killed a couple criminals in public. You really don't like him and it's showing.


I don't like any of them. That's the problem with this show. There was no hero. There wasn't even an antihero to cheer for. Who exactly was the protagonist on this show? Whatever was great about this show died off when the likes of Opie, Piney, and Tara were killed off. The majority of the rest were all nothing but low life criminal thugs operating under the guise of a community caring establishment.

And yea ok I am sure the people of Charming are "fine" with multiple murders all over their city. I'm sure they love the IRA, ABA, and all the other fun criminal groups operating in their city too. I'd love to watch an episode of the Charming local nightly news where stories of dead bodies slain in the street are the norm. But hey Samcro throws a BBQ for the community once a year and they keep the "balance" in the city so we will let them do their thing. Riiiighhht
So its alot like real life?
There are no real heros. And anyone we try to annoint as one, quickly gets torn down in todays world.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
So its alot like real life?
There are no real heros. And anyone we try to annoint as one, quickly gets torn down in todays world.


Well I'm not going to go off on a tangent and argue about real heros in the real world. I think there is plenty of them and I feel bad if you've never known one.

But hero/antihero/protagonist are terms used in literature/drama/plays etc to define a good character.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:
So its alot like real life?
There are no real heros. And anyone we try to annoint as one, quickly gets torn down in todays world.


Well I'm not going to go off on a tangent and argue about real heros in the real world. I think there is plenty of them and I feel bad if you've never known one.

But hero/antihero/protagonist are terms used in literature/drama/plays etc to define specific types of characters.

FIFY. Wink

The terms have absolutely no correlation to quality of character, rather qualities of a character. Big difference.
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The LBC


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Art_Vandalay wrote:
Clay killed a member of his own charter, a members wife, and tried to kill Tara. No one (except Bobby initially) had a problem carrying out Mayhem on Clay. Jax's retaliation got a lot of people wrongfully killed, but that was more of Gemma's fault. And the other charter just wanted him dead. So, for his charter to claim he shot Happy, ran off, and got hit by a truck, I don't think that would cause any issues.


Jax is just as guilty.. (if not more) for club related atrocities then Clay. That's the point I am making. He had no issues carrying out mayhem on Clay which was warranted then goes and makes moves that results in a club president being killed unwarranted, Bobby being killed, whoever that member was at the warehouse being killed, killing Unser in cold blood... trust me this isn't a defense for Clay. And it was more then Bobby that was against mayhem for Clay. For a while there was a whole stable of members that supported Clay against Jax including Tig and those other dudes that were doing the home invasions. Clay deserved what he got, so did Gemma. I'm not privy to what biker gang protocol is but logic would tell me it should have been Samcro delivering Jax to Indian Hills for mayhem to be carried out. They probably decided to let Samcro handle it out of respect. Then they go and pull a stunt like that? Of course we will never know but I can see that causing rifts within the two charters. Plus the killing spree Jax went on while wearing his cut will bring down some wonderful PR on the club. I'm sure the Charming residents really appreciate the multiple murder sites around town carried out by their resident motorcycle club. Real heroes of the community. Laughing

The whole notion that Jax did what's best for the club is just so absurd I can't even believe some people are trying to defend it. Jax did what was best for himself. He carried out vengeance and then gave himself a nice little painless death. Bravo

Yeah, but a lot of this tells me you really weren't paying much attention to the show because a lot of what you're complaining about was accounted for in the show (up until the final season where, and I think we've all acknowledged this, Sutter went kill/violence-happy just for the sake of upping the body count and trying to artificially boost drama).

It's mentioned multiple times in the series that each charter is expected to govern itself. There are certain organizational logistics that affiliate the individual charters into a whole entity of (inter)national SoA, but no one charter (not even Redwood Original - whose president is also the de facto National President of SOA) can dictate to another what they have to do, aside from hold a vote on a course of action... everything is supposed to go to the table.

Much of the violence that was taking place, particularly in the final couple seasons, was taking place fairly well outside of Charming. Just about everything that involved black - outside Charming (in Oakland, Alameda, or the neighboring areas). Same with the Triad. Same with the Mayans. Tyler even mentioned in the final episode that it was "real easy for (Jax) to be at ease (about Marks being released) when Charming was 40 miles away." I'll admit, they got lazy after about season 4 in actually portraying the different locations as distinctly different without going full blown stereotype (like when they were in the projects), and it was easier for me being a Californian to recognize specific locations for being where they were because of landmarks I know to be there (the harbor in Alameda is easily recognizable to me; I can tell different parts of Oakland from say Richmond or other surrounding burrows). But the locations of the series itself are spread out over a span of roughly 75 miles or more (hell, San Joaquin County alone is 1400 sq miles and that doesn't even touch into the areas of Oakland, Alameda, Eureka, and other areas the show has gone), not just one small town. Marks wasn't killed in Charming - he was arrested by San Joaquin County Sheriffs Dept and presumably held (and released from) in Stockton.

Jax is a flawed character - I don't think anyone is denying that. He was doing what he thought was best for the club. Some how because he wasn't put down like a dog or given an extremely painful death - you feel as though he was given a "hero's death" or made out to be a hero. There's a significant difference between martyrs and heroes. Did Jax martyr himself? Yes. Does that make him heroic? Not really. Repentant, sure. The writing did a bad job conveying it, IMO, but the message still came across - you reach a point where you go bad enough that there's no coming back. And Jax isn't the only one to reach that in this series. Don't think for a second that that wasn't also something that had been weighing on Opie when he made a martyr of himself. And Opie was a coldblooded killer just as much as anyone.

There was definitely some poor delivery in this series, but you're missing the mark if you think the series was trying to make heroes out of criminals - protagonists, yes; shades of gray, sure (and there are a number of 1%'er MC's that do plenty of charity work but are comprised of hardened criminals - Hell's Angels who Sutter was a hang-around with is such a club). But there's a substantial difference between protagonist and hero.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Nice post. And yes I realize protagonist doesn't specifically mean "good". Typically the protagonist carries a good moral compass but I stand corrected.

I agree they didn't do a good job of portraying the locations. To an East Coaster like me it looked like alot of it was taking place in Charming. But even 40 miles isn't that far in the realm of local violence. And there is alot in that county on the show.

As to the Charters I still don't see Indian Hills buying the "Jax got away" angle but whatever. I'm not even complaining about the end because in the aspect of Shakespearean tragedy Jax's death makes the most sense in that it emulates his fathers death. And by destroying the memoirs he breaks the cycle that certainly would have continued with Abel. Perfectly sensible and well thought out ending. But just because the ending fits doesn't mean Jax didn't go out like a coward.
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CWood21


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
As to the Charters I still don't see Indian Hills buying the "Jax got away" angle but whatever. I'm not even complaining about the end because in the aspect of Shakespearean tragedy Jax's death makes the most sense in that it emulates his fathers death. And by destroying the memoirs he breaks the cycle that certainly would have continued with Abel. Perfectly sensible and well thought out ending. But just because the ending fits doesn't mean Jax didn't go out like a coward.


Still, at the end of the day the IH charter can't afford to go after anyone in the Redwood charter without risking themselves to a Mayhem vote. Would there be bad blood between the two charters? Probably, especially if there was a large sanction inside the IH charter that didn't believe Chips. At the end of the day, it's going to be the IH charter vs. Redwood and the rest of the charters. Unless the IH charters wants to break away from Samcro they'd have no choice but to drop it.
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