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A Song Of Ice And Fire Thread (READ PG 1 !!!)
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Deets


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lions017 wrote:
I'd actually be really upset if Aegon is actually who he thinks/says he is. It just seemed to me like it was completely stupid to introduce him this late in the game, without any hints that he might be alive in previous entries in the series. I dunno, it just seems like a cop-out.

Of course, Varys is behind it all. Maybe he's been manipulated after all.


Originally when I read it, I thought that way as well. However, the epilogue changed that. (and was one of the more epic moments in the series. The clues were Varys' character and Varys' actions throughout the series. Think of him as an extension of Varys' character at this point and he'll feel more right in the series.

Oh and btw, Jon Snow doing that execution early on in Dance was epic win. My favorite Jon moment ever.
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NYGiantsman10


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deets wrote:
Oh and btw, Jon Snow doing that execution early on in Dance was epic win. My favorite Jon moment ever.


Couldn't have happened to a nicer person Very Happy I was reading that thinking "You can't just sit there and let a brother be openly insubordinate to the LC like that" Then I was like Surprised

Only thing that comes close is Lord Lamprey and his mysterious pies...
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cmstophe


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no guarantee Aegon is fake. Just because he is the "Mummer's Dragon" doesn't mean he is the Mummer.

Varys is the Mummer.

Aegon is the Dragon.

Mummer's Dragon. See what I did there? Aegon could very well be real.

Also, I just finished ADWD ... why does everyone hate it so much? Honestly I'd rank it above AFFC and maybe even AGOT. Is it because I just read all 5 books over about 3 months, instead of having to wait years and years between them? Maybe that made me less bitter. But ADWD was awesome. They're all good, even AFFC, but my two favorites are definitely ASOS and ACOK.

Great books.

Quote:
And Jon Snow is Azor Ahai. All the signs are there. Re-born amongst a bloody star (Ser Patrek's sigil was a star), smoke (his wounds were described as "smoking"), and salt (from Bowen Marsh's tears)


That is a SUPERB analysis. I mean, I already thought Jon was Azor Ahai but that is really good detective work if you thought that up yourself.

Anyways, I assumed Melisandre would be reviving him Beric Dondarrion/Catelyn Stark style anyways the moment I read that scene. In that way it's kind of a cheap cliff hanger by GRRM, does he really think anybody believes Snow is done-yins?
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Lions017


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmstophe wrote:
There is no guarantee Aegon is fake. Just because he is the "Mummer's Dragon" doesn't mean he is the Mummer.

Varys is the Mummer.

Aegon is the Dragon.

Mummer's Dragon. See what I did there? Aegon could very well be real.

Also, I just finished ADWD ... why does everyone hate it so much? Honestly I'd rank it above AFFC and maybe even AGOT. Is it because I just read all 5 books over about 3 months, instead of having to wait years and years between them? Maybe that made me less bitter. But ADWD was awesome. They're all good, even AFFC, but my two favorites are definitely ASOS and ACOK.

Great books.

Quote:
And Jon Snow is Azor Ahai. All the signs are there. Re-born amongst a bloody star (Ser Patrek's sigil was a star), smoke (his wounds were described as "smoking"), and salt (from Bowen Marsh's tears)


That is a SUPERB analysis. I mean, I already thought Jon was Azor Ahai but that is really good detective work if you thought that up yourself.

Anyways, I assumed Melisandre would be reviving him Beric Dondarrion/Catelyn Stark style anyways the moment I read that scene. In that way it's kind of a cheap cliff hanger by GRRM, does he really think anybody believes Snow is done-yins?


To me ADWD just felt...off. The pacing was kind of messed up. Characters like Dany and Tyrion had a ton of chapters yet really didn't do much - plenty of those could've been cut. They did go through some development, but not enough to warrant so many pages. And the plot from their perspective is hardly advanced at all - only in the end does Dany do anything significant. And the book also feels much less complete than the others. There are a lot of cliffhangers. Add in stuff like just throwing in Aegon more than halfway through the series, and you have the series taking some serious downward trends the way that I see it. It was still a good book, but it just wasn't as tight as the others.
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superman 2000


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some thoughts

Arrow Do all Targs have tha ability to have prophetic visions, if so then.........Jon might be a targ after all. The only roles that seem to have visions of the future are him and Dany (Dany dreams of Drogon and her shooting flames across the river against shadows. White Walker ?).........Maybe he is Rhaegar's son. My "alternative theory" is that it may be him thinking of Lightbringer and the red sword is just a dream of him fighting wights and all his friends and allies abandoning him. Symbolism would imply that he is concerned that all his friends and allies are leaving him quickly and he is clutching a "magic" sword with no hilt. He might be thinking of what Dalla told him.

Arrow I'm not sure if the sword that Jon is holding is Lightbringer or if it is just infact and dragonsteel blade that has been lite on fire. I think dragon steel in itself is flammable and can burn but still retain its shape. If your were to melt the dragonbone and mold it into the steel the blade would be rather hot and run red if you put it into fire. As is the black armor he is wearing. Jon already believes that Dragonsteel can kill the wights and can withstand there blades so its only natural he wants one for himself to fight the wights.

Arrow Although I personally believe that "Aegon" is a fake I wouldn't mind him being real espicially since Dany interprets this "Mummers Dragon" to be a fake Dragon and upon landing into Westeros could see this cloth dragon waving in the breeze and come to the the conclusion that Aegon is a pretender and she is the only true heir. Only then to find out that this is infact her real nephew and she just killed the only other Targ then her. The "third" head has been destroyed (her, Viserys, Aegon where the "three head" that Rhaegar mentions in the dream and she just let two of them die). It would be similar to Cersei destroying Houst Lannister, Dany just destroyed the last scions of House Targaryen and Connington will be so furious that he gives her his greyscale and Dany dies a slow and painful death before she even gets to see her empire rise again. Bittersweet Ending for her.

Arrow Maybe I'm ignorant but I don't see how the "bleeding star" that is mentioned in the Azor Ahai prophecy is Ser Patrek bleeding star. I think more likely the bleeding star is in fact the Red Comet that is breaking up and falling to pieces forming forming shooting stars that look like red droplets of blood from the comet. Some people seem to think of it as a star and could see it as such (though we know it to be a comet in the modern world). I think the smoke coming Jon's wounds could be Melisandre's work. I think she must have done something to him (putting in one of he r shadow children in Jon to take the blows and absorb the wounds. That could be why Jon felt so cold afterwards because the shadow and flame child was within him and left as soon as the blows fell. I think more likely Azor Ahai will be reborn on Dragonstone while the red comet breaks around him and the smoke from the volcano and salt from the seas cause a change within him, his body, mind, and spirit.

Arrow I think Jon will eventually become the Last Hero rather then Azor Ahai as I believe Bran is acutally a vessel for the Great Other. While Bran is warging into other things and is growing more powerful with the magic and wargin eventually he will become strong enough so the Great Other can take his body from him and force him somewhere else. Perhaps into an Ice Dragon (which would kickass), then Jon goes into the Land of Always Winter to slay the Great Other only to find out he is inhabiting Bran's body. Jon basically has to kill someone whom he sees as a little brother and while he is remembered as a hero and legend and Lord of Winterfell and Warden on the North he only remembers his sword being driven into Bran's body. Bittersweet Ending two

Arrow I think that the True Azor Ahai will find a dragon egg within Dragonstone (raise a Dragon form stone) and use that. I believe that the last dragon has raised a clutch of five eggs and Dany has three on them with her, Euron Greyjoy threw his into the sea, and the last Dragon Egg has been placed in dragonstone somewhere so no one can find it. I believe that during Summerhall the three dragon eggs dany has were the three there and where petrified to death during the Tragedy. Varys finds them via Aerys and keeps them hidden so Rhaegar can't hatch them and when he dies gives them to Illyrio for safe keeping. Then Dany is given the Dragon Eggs to help get the Golden Company to fight for her rather then Aegon and Aegon can come forward, make his claim to the throne, and become Dany's husband and king.

And yes the scene where Jon stages the execution of Slynt was BA. I wanted him to be like "I Jon Snow, 998th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and Protector of the Wall hereby sentence you to death" SWISH....THUNK.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that is the disturbing part...Bran may very well be on the Others' side come the end of the series.


Whats bugging me right now is.....when will Arya be involved in the plot again. Shes spent 2-3 books training to be a super awesome ninja assassin and shes been talking revenge the entire series. How long do we have to wait for her to grab Needle and stick some Lannisters with the pointy end?
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superman 2000


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deets wrote:
Well that is the disturbing part...Bran may very well be on the Others' side come the end of the series.


Whats bugging me right now is.....when will Arya be involved in the plot again. Shes spent 2-3 books training to be a super awesome ninja assassin and shes been talking revenge the entire series. How long do we have to wait for her to grab Needle and stick some Lannisters with the pointy end?


Yep and if Jon has to kill his little brother, someone as sweet, innocent, and loved as Bran will he be capable of doing so. We know Jon loves his family and may carry the "KinSlayer" title in his mind for the rest of his life even though he just saved the world or had a hand in doing so. The memory will haunt him till he dieing day.

As far as Arya is concerned if a relived Jon, Melisandre, and Free Folk decide to go towards the Riverland or towards Winterfell and Ghost meets up with Nymeria then possibly Arya will have a wolf dream of them and decide to see her brother again. That or Littlefinger decides to kill Aegon so he can get the Iron Throne and sends a request to the FM to do so. Then Arya returns back to Westeros.
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Packman Luke


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh my. Not sure how I missed this. I'm going to read everything when I have a bit more time, but for now a question; It seems like we are assuming Jon isn't dead. I agree, but is there some evidence of this other than him being a major character? Do we think Melisander is bringing him back ala Dondarrion?

BTW, Beric Dondarrion, total bamf.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmstophe wrote:
Also, I just finished ADWD ... why does everyone hate it so much? Honestly I'd rank it above AFFC and maybe even AGOT. Is it because I just read all 5 books over about 3 months, instead of having to wait years and years between them? Maybe that made me less bitter. But ADWD was awesome. They're all good, even AFFC, but my two favorites are definitely ASOS and ACOK.

Great books.


Agreed.

Deets wrote:
EPIC WIN THREADDDDDDD


My favorite characters are Robb, Stannis, Jaime, King Robert and........................


AEGON OH HELLLS YEA AEEEEGONNNNN. That dude totally made Dance for me. He listens to Tyron's good advice. Varys got his back. He attacks the impregnable Storm's End LIKE A BOSS. Oh and hes totally getting one of Dany's dragons.


If Stannis is dead (which is about 50/50 since Ramsey Bolton is well....a lying bastard). then I'm totally rooting Aegon to win this thing.


Good advice? Tyrion himself referred to it as "bait." It might end up working out, but the only reason Tyrion told him to go back to Westeros was to increase his chances of getting a dragon himself IMO.

NYGiantsman10 wrote:
And Jon Snow is Azor Ahai. All the signs are there. Re-born amongst a bloody star (Ser Patrek's sigil was a star), smoke (his wounds were described as "smoking"), and salt (from Bowen Marsh's tears). Watch out Boltons, Jon Stark/Targaryen's a-coming Cool


Oh, gotcha.

Deets wrote:
Lions017 wrote:
I'd actually be really upset if Aegon is actually who he thinks/says he is. It just seemed to me like it was completely stupid to introduce him this late in the game, without any hints that he might be alive in previous entries in the series. I dunno, it just seems like a cop-out.

Of course, Varys is behind it all. Maybe he's been manipulated after all.


Originally when I read it, I thought that way as well. However, the epilogue changed that. (and was one of the more epic moments in the series. The clues were Varys' character and Varys' actions throughout the series. Think of him as an extension of Varys' character at this point and he'll feel more right in the series.

Oh and btw, Jon Snow doing that execution early on in Dance was epic win. My favorite Jon moment ever.


I kind of suspected Varys was still looking to help return the Targaryens to power all along. There was the thing Arya overheard, and then his allegiance was constantly questioned by different characters. It just made sense with him being a remnant of Targaryen rule.

And yeah, that execution was BA. I was really hoping we wouldn't have to deal with dumb Janos Slynt through the whole book. (It would make for a lame and tired plotline, not to mention inconsequential compared to the threat of Others or even wildlings.) He ended it with authority.
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Packman Luke


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always imagined Arya would kill Cersei. Cersei was prophesized to be killed by the valenqueor (sp?) which she thinks means "little brother" but is clearly a mis-translation. I feel like the word was used somewhere else in the series but I don't remember where.

Jon Snow definitely has Stark blood in him. Do people think he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child? Does the timeline work for that? It'd make for an interesting twist, and would explain how Lyanna died.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packman Luke wrote:
I always imagined Arya would kill Cersei. Cersei was prophesized to be killed by the valenqueor (sp?) which she thinks means "little brother" but is clearly a mis-translation. I feel like the word was used somewhere else in the series but I don't remember where.

Jon Snow definitely has Stark blood in him. Do people think he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child? Does the timeline work for that? It'd make for an interesting twist, and would explain how Lyanna died.


I like your Arya theory. I'd forgotten about that line and I could totally see the misinterpretation.

I do think that Jon Snow is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Interestingly enough, that theory was slightly stronger before Dance. In Dance they actually created a situation where Ned fathering a bastard was a believable possibility. Before that, it was impossible to believe that Ned Stark would ever do anything that dishonorable. Despite that, I still feel like due to the mysterious nature of of Lyanna's death there needs to be something else related to it. Oh and there is one living person who still knows the truth of what happened in that tower in Dorne.....Meera and Jojen's father. He was with Ned for the entire incident.
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cmstophe


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About the Cersei prophecy, I always took it to mean that Jaime was going to kill her. She thinks it's Tyrion, but Jaime is technically her little brother too. They are twins, but she popped out first as we know. Laughing

With Jaime becoming increasingly distraught with Cersei, it makes sense. My only concern with this theory is I have a really, really bad feeling that Brienne is leading Jaime to his death at the hands of Lady Stoneheart/Stark and the Brotherhood Without Banners. But what is the word Brienne shouted? "Sword" is the only possibility I can think of, but who the hell knows. I can't believe Martin is making us wait ANOTHER freakin 3+ years to find out the answer to that.

Although the use of the term "Valenqueor" is...odd. I could definitely see it linked to Arya.

As for the Tower of Joy ... I think it's very safe to say Snow is not Eddard's son. But whose is he? Rhaegar and Lyanna is on top of the list of possibilities, and I'd bet some money on it. Oh, and Howland Reed? Dude will DEFINITELY show up soon. Very Happy Can't wait. The ToJ was always one of my favorite moments in ASOIAF back story, the 3 against 7 with Eddard almost perishing to the Sword of the Morning ... "if not for Howland Reed." Lots of speculation that Reed show Dayne with a poisoned arrow or something dishonorable.
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Packman Luke


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brynden Tully. Where is he?

Does Davos find Rickon?
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cmstophe


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packman Luke wrote:
Brynden Tully. Where is he?

Does Davos find Rickon?


Rhetorical questions?

Last we heard of Blackfish he was swimming downriver away from Riverrun.

Last we heard of Davos he was going to Skagos to retrieve Rickon.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmstophe wrote:
Packman Luke wrote:
Brynden Tully. Where is he?

Does Davos find Rickon?


Rhetorical questions?

Last we heard of Blackfish he was swimming downriver away from Riverrun.

Last we heard of Davos he was going to Skagos to retrieve Rickon.


So many plotlines are like that at the end of Dance. Who did Brianne find and what happened to her and Jaime? Whats Dany going to do now that shes been found? Is Jon dead? Is Stannis dead?
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