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A Song Of Ice And Fire Thread (READ PG 1 !!!)
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cmstophe


Joined: 02 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deets wrote:
cmstophe wrote:
Packman Luke wrote:
Brynden Tully. Where is he?

Does Davos find Rickon?


Rhetorical questions?

Last we heard of Blackfish he was swimming downriver away from Riverrun.

Last we heard of Davos he was going to Skagos to retrieve Rickon.


So many plotlines are like that at the end of Dance. Who did Brianne find and what happened to her and Jaime? Whats Dany going to do now that shes been found? Is Jon dead? Is Stannis dead?


Lots of plotlines ended in cliffhangers...but then again, this is an ongoing series, so let's be real. This is to be expected.

There is literally 0 chance Jon is dead/stays dead. I don't know about you guys, but that is how I feel. Stannis, on the other hand, might be dead. But it doesn't make much sense if he is. I'd think Ramsay is lying about it.

Why would Martin kill such an influential character off screen?

No idea what's in store for Daenerys with Khal whatshisface finding her (they are not on good terms, if I recall) but we know that Meereen's forces led by Barristan the Badass are about to do some serious damage to the Yunkish.

Can't. WAIT.

/bart scott

PS: I have a foreboding feeling that Jaime is about to die, as I noted. Really hope I'm wrong. I feel his plot is very incomplete and can't be solved without him confronting Tyrion and Cersei again before the end of the series, so maybe he will be all right.
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finn54


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of my predictions for The Winds of Winter:


- Jon is eventually revived by Melisandre, but not straight away. His body will be preserved under the wall. I also think that eventually, Jon kills Melisandre with long claw, thus giving him 'lightbringer'. R+L=J, therefore Jon = ice (L) and fire (R).

- Stannis is not dead (he can't be Crying or Very sad). If there is an iron throne at the end of the series, i think Stannis is sitting on it. But also, at the same time, i can easily envision a nasty end for him. I think we all know he isn't Azor Ahai as he and Melisandre claim.

- Aegon is a fake and is Varys' play for the throne. Don't think it'll end well for Aegon.

- Asha and Theon successfully escape the North to go back to the Iron Islands, where they call another kingsmoot.

- The champion of the faith in Cersei's trial will be Sandor. Versus Gregor. Sandor wins and Cersei dies (hopefully). Sandor=the little brother in the prophecy.

- Dany wins her new khalsar and takes them back to Mereen, where she and Barristan sack the crap out of slavers bay once and for all. Then she heads for Westeros.

- Brienne takes Jaime back to Catelyn for a trial, but Brienne is Jaime's champion and wins.

- It will not end well for Sansa and Littlefinger. I just can't see them winning the north, plus the Targs are coming back.



Does anyone have a list of all the prophecies made throughout the books? I have so many theories and want to see if they can match up.


I hope i don't have to wait 6 years for the next book Evil or Very Mad
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cmstophe


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, do a quick Google, there is a site that has a nice list of all the dreams/prophecies and what they mean.
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superman 2000


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'm the only person who absolutely does not buy into the R+L=J theory. I mean if it happens it happens but there are more holes in the thoery then there are connection at least in my opinion.

For starters during the Tourney of Harrenhal Rahegar shocks everyone by giving the then 14 to 15 year old Lyanna the Crown Of Blue Roses to symbolize the queen of love and beauty and EVERYONE seems to think that he was in love with her and obsessed with having her. From my point of view it seems more likely that he was doing what Loras Tyrell was doing with Sanse. He gives her a bright red rose and says that the most beautiful rose for the loveliest of women and Sansa interprets it to mean he is in love with her when in acutality Loras was simply performing a gesture so Lord Stark would join him and Renly of taking the throne from the Lannisters.

If Rhaegar was indeed forming a coup de taet so he could remove his father from the Throne and combat Highgarden whom was loyal to House Targaryen or to help his father just in case the Lannisters tried to get the throne and Rhaegar could have the Starks alliegance to usurp his father or help him and secure a peaceful transition with both House Stark, Arryn, Tully, and Baratheon at his command and make sure no blood shed would come.


Second we hear of how Lyanna had been kidnapped by Rhaegar which would imply the two were seen together. My thought to this is that its possible Lyanna wanted to meet this bastard girl in the Vale her husband to be father. Upon seeing her she then along with her entourage goes to the Storm's End and give Robert a choice. Either he stops seeing the girl in the Vale, be with her and ONLY her, and have no other woman's bed or he would not get her maidenhood for himself. I think that Robert loved Lyanna enough (or wanted her elusive maidenhood enough) to stop seeing this girl and be with her.

I then believe that she may have gone to search for Rhaegar to ask if he would be willing to play his harp for there wedding as a favor to her which could explain how someone could have thought her and Rhaegar had run away together. My hunch is that Rhaegar could have gone to Oldtown to seek help from the maesters as mean to make Elia fertile again and allow him to have a child of her and Lyanna could have sought him down. Perhaps this is when Rhaegar could have told her of his plan to gain House Starks alliegance in the battle and possibly the invasion of the Others in the North. He believes his son is the chosen one and he will need the Starks support so when the Others would come House Stark can help Aegon defeat them and possibly help his usurp his father.

As for her sickness and apparent child birthing I think that at some point Lyanna could have run off upon hearing of Brandon and Rickard and decided to throw caution to the wind and hurry home instead of waiting for her entourage to rest a bit. She could then could have gotten lost in her haste and out run her men where she then get raped by some unknown Dornishman and has his child. I have a hunch that the Dornishman whom could have raped her might be Oberyn Martell, we know the Red Viper is said to have more bastards then Robert in Westeros and his motivation could be to get revenge of Rhaegar's supposed infidelity to his beloved sister and impregnating Rhaegar's supposed mistress Lyanna Stark. Lyanna is still a girl and could have been sick long before and combined with child birth have made her weak.


As for the Tower of Joy, my thoughts are basically Rhaegar find Lyanna somewhere out in desert or some lands and brings her somewhere close to wear the Lyanna can heal from her heat sickness and birth her child (Jon). the Tower Of Joy is located near the Prince's Pass in the Dornish Marches and is in Dorne territory. To protect the young girl while she is at her most vulnerable and more importantly she is Stark and ally to House Targaryen he calls his best guardsmen to watch over her until he gets back and tells Stark and his men of what happened or take the blame himself and preserve Lyanna's honor by claiming the child as his own and taking Jon for a ward to be raised in the Red Keep.


I suppose my reasoning consist of Jon having absolutely no Targ appearance in him whatsoever, not being flame proof, and not having the prophecitc visions that the members of House Targaryen are known to have occasionally along with the characteristics of both Lyanna and Rhaegar. I simply can't wrap my head around as to why Lyanna would reject Robert for having one child in Vale but would openly elope and make love to married men ten year her age (Lyanna 15 to 16 and Rhaegar 25 to 26) with two children at home, and on top of that a sick or ailing wife waiting for him. Its not like Robert is ugly or anything, so why only Rhaegar ?

Not only that but according to Ser Barristan, Rhaegar (who is known for being nerdy, quiet, and quite sullen and angry mostly) was beaming when he saw Elia Martell walk down the aisle and for all intents and purpose there marriage was happy and healthy one, would a man like Rhaegar Targaryen thought to be gallant and noble abandon his sick wife and infant son to bang a 15 year old girl and run away with her and why would Lyanna let him ? She is said to be extremely willful and if her niece Arya is any indication quote noble as well (Arya dragging the little girl through the mud with all hell breaking lose around her) I simply can't see her allowing Rhaegar to do that to her.

I think most like Jon enough to try and imagine his conception and birth to be noble and romantic in nature when I think its rather sad and very tragic in nature.

Just my opinion.
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NYGiantsman10


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ supes that post is so long I gotta break it down one section at a time

We have no proof that Loras gave Sansa that rose to secure Eddard Stark's loyalty. Ned Stark isn't the type to change sides because his daughter got a rose.

Not sure what you're trying to say in the 2nd paragraph. It's all speculation that Rhaegar was planning to depose Aerys. Even when he talks to Jaime about "making changes" the war had already been raging for a while. Besides kidnapping Rickard Stark's virgin daughter isn't the most sensible way to secure an alliance I'd say.

Why does Lyanna have to go to all of these places? They're incredibly far apart! I think you're giving her too much credit. She was either taken by force or ran off with Rhaegar willingly. If it's the latter and she's that selfish I doubt she gives a crap what Robert thinks or what Mya Stone's like

Lyanna didn't love Robert, she knew that he was way too lustful a man to ever stay with just her, but she did have a thing for Rhaegar. In Meera and Jojen's story the wolf maid cried at the song of the dragon prince because it was so beautiful. Rhaegar was also incredibly handsome, a peerless knight, and the crown prince. Even if he thought Lyanna was the most beautiful, he was married with 2 kids. He'd have to be a complete moron to not see that crowning a 15 year old girl from another house the queen of beauty would cause serious problems

I think you're making way too many assumptions. I think what happened was Rhaegar saw something in the prophecy that made him believe he needed 3 kids, and that 1 had to come from Lyanna. Why else would he target a girl he knew was betrothed when there were thousands of girls he could've used? Maybe it was just lust, but Rhaegar doesn't seem like that type. Heck even Ned Stark remembers him as an honorable guy.

Sheesh. I don't even know what to say here about that stuff about the Red Viper.

Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid. There are tons of signs pointing to it. If you need more proof read this page:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html
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NYGiantsman10


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My crackpot theory about why Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and all that jazz? He knew he needed a 3rd child, and he saw something in a prophecy that made him believe that 3rd child needed to come from Lyanna (plus Elia couldn't safely have any more kids), and that if he didn't create the future Prince Who Was Promised, the world was doomed.

So Rhaegar, knowing he needs to act RIGHT NOW for the future of the whole continent, takes Lyanna, who goes with him because she's a hotheaded child who doesn't think, and has a monstrous crush on handsome Rhaegar. He takes her to the Toer of Joy, not knowing that Aerys will cook Rickard Stark alive and kill Brandon Stark.

The war breaks out, Rhaegar makes sure he's gotten Lyanna pregnant, and rides off to war, leaving 3 of the best knights in Westeros behind. He hopes that he can achieve a stalemate so he can explain why he did what he did. Robert crushes in his chest on the Trident. The name he whispers as he dies? Elias. As he's dying, he apologizes to his wife and kids. Thats what I'd like to see Cool
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Lions017


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Jaime dies in the next book then I'll flip. Well...maybe. He's definitely one of my favorite characters, but I don't think that he necessarily needs to have a happy ending. I just think that he needs to have a bit more to do before the end. Killing him off early on in the next book with Zombie Catelyn would be incredibly disappointing.
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Packman Luke


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lions017 wrote:
If Jaime dies in the next book then I'll flip. Well...maybe. He's definitely one of my favorite characters, but I don't think that he necessarily needs to have a happy ending. I just think that he needs to have a bit more to do before the end. Killing him off early on in the next book with Zombie Catelyn would be incredibly disappointing.



The story suggested that Brienne was going to bring him back to Catelyn to be killed, but by now we can assume that there is going to be some kind of twist. I like the theory that Jaime is the one who kills Cersei, as the story about their birth seemed out of place in the book.
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Deets


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYGiantsman10 wrote:
^ supes that post is so long I gotta break it down one section at a time

We have no proof that Loras gave Sansa that rose to secure Eddard Stark's loyalty. Ned Stark isn't the type to change sides because his daughter got a rose.

Not sure what you're trying to say in the 2nd paragraph. It's all speculation that Rhaegar was planning to depose Aerys. Even when he talks to Jaime about "making changes" the war had already been raging for a while. Besides kidnapping Rickard Stark's virgin daughter isn't the most sensible way to secure an alliance I'd say.

Why does Lyanna have to go to all of these places? They're incredibly far apart! I think you're giving her too much credit. She was either taken by force or ran off with Rhaegar willingly. If it's the latter and she's that selfish I doubt she gives a crap what Robert thinks or what Mya Stone's like

Lyanna didn't love Robert, she knew that he was way too lustful a man to ever stay with just her, but she did have a thing for Rhaegar. In Meera and Jojen's story the wolf maid cried at the song of the dragon prince because it was so beautiful. Rhaegar was also incredibly handsome, a peerless knight, and the crown prince. Even if he thought Lyanna was the most beautiful, he was married with 2 kids. He'd have to be a complete moron to not see that crowning a 15 year old girl from another house the queen of beauty would cause serious problems

I think you're making way too many assumptions. I think what happened was Rhaegar saw something in the prophecy that made him believe he needed 3 kids, and that 1 had to come from Lyanna. Why else would he target a girl he knew was betrothed when there were thousands of girls he could've used? Maybe it was just lust, but Rhaegar doesn't seem like that type. Heck even Ned Stark remembers him as an honorable guy.

Sheesh. I don't even know what to say here about that stuff about the Red Viper.

Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's kid. There are tons of signs pointing to it. If you need more proof read this page:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html


Yea, I don't like all the Red Viper hate. The dude was amazing. Though its kind of funny, I remember when my brother read Storm (he was a big Robb fan like me). Well after Robb died he declared the Red Viper his new favorite character.................that didn't go well. Martin is really an amazing troll.
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NYGiantsman10


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote




Laughing
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Deets


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYGiantsman10 wrote:



Laughing


GRRM: Hey there kiddo, whos your favorite character?
Little kid: Robb!
GRRM: Lemme tell you about something called the Red Wedding

*10 minutes later*

Little kid: *cries*
GRRM: Any other favorite characters?
Little kid: Theon?
GRRM: Nice try
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cmstophe


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theon truly is a fantastic character. Easily my second or third favorite. Jaime is still my bossman #1 though.
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Lions017


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmstophe wrote:
Theon truly is a fantastic character. Easily my second or third favorite. Jaime is still my bossman #1 though.


Theon is really great. I despised him early on, but then Martin actually managed to make me feel (a little) sorry for him. I'm really pulling for him now - I think that he can sort of redeem himself before the end.

His chapters were easily the best parts of Dance.
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Packman Luke


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's going to happen with Tom O' Sevens inside Riverrun? I bet the King's Men are going to be featured heavily in the next book.
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Deets


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lions017 wrote:
cmstophe wrote:
Theon truly is a fantastic character. Easily my second or third favorite. Jaime is still my bossman #1 though.


Theon is really great. I despised him early on, but then Martin actually managed to make me feel (a little) sorry for him. I'm really pulling for him now - I think that he can sort of redeem himself before the end.

His chapters were easily the best parts of Dance.



I enjoyed Theon's chapters in Dance, but I still strongly dislike him. (the only Ironborn I like is Euron because hes such a troll).

I am, however, a big Jaime fan. His character arc was extremely well done. By the time he started getting chapters you realize that beneath that arrogant facade, he was extremely bitter about the state of his honor and the title of kingslayer. What you see is a guy whos done some really bad [inappropriate/removed] and wants to start acting better....and during feast his character arc really hits a high note when he burns his sister's letter. Losing his sword arm certainly played a role in his transformation, but I feel like the desire to change was there all along. Jaime feels like one of the few remaining heroes in the series, though because of his past wrongs hes probably not going to get out of it alive.

Theon is similar in his core issues. Jaime's main issue was his bitterness about the peoples' reaction to his assassination of Aerys (which he saw as an honorable move because it saved thousands of lives). Theon's issue is that he is trapped between the world of the Starks and the world of the Ironborn, yet feels accepted by neither. He does horrible things to try and be a true Ironborn...only to fail and long afterwards realize that he truly belonged with the Starks. The problem I have with Theon (aside from that he totally bro-trayed Robb) is that both before his fall during Clash and afterwards in Dance....hes a total coward. He doesn't stand up to his sister or father at all. He uses dirty tricks and nothing worthy of any real respect. Well...afterwards in Dance...hes still completely spineless. So I don't see how hes grown as a character other then the fact that hes been reduced to something really pathetic. Maybe Stannis will burn him to appease the red god Twisted Evil (since he does have kingsblood lol)
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