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.sean.


Joined: 20 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:31 pm    Post subject: Post Draft Reevaluation of the Ereck Flowers Pick Reply with quote

I wasn't a huge fan of Flowers as a prospect based on my tape evaluation heading into the draft and did not want us to take him, thus I wasn't thrilled when he was the pick. In my opinion, Jerry Reese & co. have never missed on a first round pick in his entire tenure as Giants GM. Some bad luck with injuries and some better players taken later in some cases, but thats always the case. Everyone he drafted in round 1 could play. So it would be illogical of me not to take a step back re-evaluate the pick. I have absolutely no reason not to trust this staff with first round picks.

Coming into the draft I felt that, unless one of the elite talents fell to 9, the Giants should take their best rated tackle; even if it was a 'reach'. I felt the need to infuse premier talent into the offensive line was so great that it should push any offensive linemen in the 2nd tier of prospects to the top of the board after the first tier-break. I also felt we needed to get someone who could start right away and improve our line from day 1. However, I felt that the Giants should be looking to draft a LT of the future.

As Rams' GM Les Snead said in an interview on NFL Network, the average starting LT is found in the top 2 rounds, but the average RT or interior player could be found in the mid rounds.. You gotta get the franchise tackles early. It's a premier, early in the draft, "skill" position. And while I am of the belief that the RT in this NFL is a valuable position that has to be able to pass protect with the way the league is trending, there is still greater inherent value in the LT position for protecting the blind side of QB's and the higher percentage of premier edge rushers. And in considering how highly the true cornerstone LT's usually go (top 10) and how infrequently we pick there (first time since Eli - first time for Reese), that this was our opportunity to get that player, even if the class wasn't the best for it. Trust your evaluation and take the best one.

In evaluating the offensive linemen as LT's, I focused heavily on the ideal LT traits with a priority on their ability and potential in protection along with their ability to be a day 1 asset as a starter somewhere on the line. I wanted someone who could take over for Beatty either this year or next. It would upgrade and solidify the LT position and then we could move on from Beatty's overpriced contract and utilize that money to improve elsewhere (potentially even elsewhere on the offensive line - improving 2 positions). Beatty could start at LT this year if necessary, or if we got someone better than him day 1 (and IMO there were a few in the draft) - that he could play LG.

I like Beatty as a person, but I'm not a huge fan of him as a player. His technique, upper body strength, and hand placement are atrocious - especially in protection. He plays hard, he has good feet, he's pretty fluid, and he's got good functional power and equilibrium; can drive people in the run game and anchor in pass pro. But his technique is just so atrocious and he's too inconsistent because of it. He graded out pretty well in the "simple peoples' football almanac" over at PFF, but that's because of our offense. A lot of 3 step, 5 step, quick game, screens, and rhythm stuff with a focus on getting the ball out quick, high completion percentage, and generally working short to deep progressions. A lot of times even when he got beat, he would do enough for the play to have success, so he wouldn't get knocked in the grades. But he wasn't as massively improved from his atrocious 2013 season as the stats would indicate, the system was a big help.

So with all that considered - future LT, pro ready somewhere, pass pro upside, etc. - I was willing to overlook run blocking with pass protection and reliability on the blind side being the priority. That being the criteria, the order I wanted the the tackles before Flowers followed as such:

1. La'el Collins: I felt he was the most pro ready LT in the draft. Underrated feet, consistent kick slide, good anchor, inside out, plays his game, vicious punch. His upside there is more limited than any of the premier tackles because he's squatty and not especially long, but I also felt that he could be a plus starter at the position for his career. Also felt he was better than Beatty day 1. Best position is guard though and could start there day 1 and be one of the better guards in the league IMO. Good run blocker as well. Great football player.

2. DJ Humphries: Best combination of pro readiness and upside in terms of pass protection at LT and playing in space with premier edge rushers. Extraordinarily fluid with phenomenal bend and footwork, combative hands and understanding of using length, etc. Functional run blocker as well with some nasty and fight. Just needed to add size and strength which he did for the combine. Just haven't seen what that does for his power on the field Arm length is a bit limited but its like Pugh in the base and fight that he can maximize length bending at the knees, wide base, and proud chest with good punch timing.

3. Andrus Peat: Second best combination of pro readiness and upside at LT to Humphries. Good feet, good length, good anchor, good hand placement - good technique in general. He's been well taught, and you can see it, but he's highly inconsistent in using what he's taught.There wasn't much improvement from sophomore to junior year, maybe even regression, which is concerning - esp. at a school like Stanford. Not as much power as you'd like or think based on how he looks. Can play soft. But he's got big time talent, upside, and is pro ready if you can get him to work to become consistent and play with more nasty. Could stand to lose fat and put on some more muscle.

4. TJ Clemmings: Great length, good hand placement and hand power, very good feet, good functional drive power, can sit to anchor. He's got it all physically. But he is very raw technically. He is mechanical and clearly thinking about what he's doing and often over thinking (senior bowl). Needs to learn the position, learn to trust his feet and his length, be patient rather than aggressive in protection and play with less separation and smaller steps in the run game while maintaining the power. But he's all sorts of nasty and has great length, athleticism, and ability to play with wide base and knee bend. Just like his pass pro upside more than Flowers speaking from a purely physical standpoint.

I also felt that Jake Fisher, Cedric Ogbuehi, and Donovan Smith (along with those others already listed) in round 2 would be better values than Flowers in round 1. Maybe trading up in the 2nd to snag one of them if there was a late offensive line run. Flowers is stiff, lacks fluidity, struggles to bend at the knees with good base, and has atrocious hand placement. So I worried about his pass pro upside as a LT. Thinking of LT's traditionally, anyway.

--------

My rankings were ultimately flawed though, because the criteria I based them on were not the criteria we necessarily needed or the criteria the Giants were looking for. With the benefit of hindsight - let's see where I went wrong in evaluation:

1. I severely and shamefully undervalued run blocking, especially for this team.

A good run game takes the pressure off the passing game and offensive line in protection by keeping you ahead of the sticks, which keeps the full breadth of the playbook at your disposal and keeps the defense off balance and unable to pin ears back and attack rushing the passer. The run game and value of balance and ball control is also the general identity of this franchise and a core philosophical principle of our HoF caliber head coach. If Coughlin is going to demand running the ball and balance, making the run game half the offense, it doesn't make sense to not place equal value in the run and pass game - even if having a big run game doesn't have to mean playing with 2 TEs and a FB. Just because GB throws a bunch and gets away with it in regular season football and just because we had to pass more than we would've liked last year due to our atrocious run game, doesn't mean that we're going to be a high pass percentage offense trending with the rest of the league. Playoff teams win with balance, ball control, ball security, defense, and a reliable QB.

On top of that, this offensive line definitely needs more displacement presence and nasty demeanor if we're going to be a hybrid zone/power blocking scheme. This kid is a day 1 asset to our run game. Ultimately, the reason he went as highly as he did, in my opinion, is because of his rare strength and what he's going to do for the run game immediately and in the future. Can be a dominant, special run blocker. This isn't something I ever doubted. It just wasn't something I valued over his flaws in protection. His ability to latch on and control guys is freaky. Outstanding athlete as a run blocker (athleticism moving forward and backward are not the same, different movements) for a 330 pound dude (think he was more in college). He's got all sorts of nasty, hustle, and compete to him too. We definitely need a guy like this on our offensive line, I just felt that we could get a guard later in the draft that could do something similar for our offense at the time.

2. I overlooked the impact of the schematic nature of this offense and it's impact on the line. (which is something I always otherwise emphasized as a benefit previously)

The whole time I'm criticizing Beatty's performance and technique and talking about how the scheme protected him, I ignored the fact that despite how ugly it looked at times, it was often enough to get the job done for the sake of the play. It could and needs to be better and more consistent, but it's technique, and he can improve there now that he's had opportunity to be healthy and work. And despite the fact that Flowers may look very ugly at times, may be inconsistent, may struggle some early, with his strength and size, he's probably going to be able to do enough to get the job done.

With an improved run game and run/pass balance, we'll only be passing a bit above half the time and of that half the time passing, a lot of it will not be drop back 5 step and 7 step stuff (actually, I think with the reworked footwork in this offense they work on evens (0,2,4,6 step drops)). Playaction, quick game, etc. A focus on getting the ball out. He'll be protected as he develops. And he's a massive presence that inherently elongates the path to the QB. He's still going to need to improve in protection, there is still progression and deep passing in this offense, there is still 2 minute and hurry up. But for what he brings in the run game and the upside, its worth the development process. I think this offense likes tackles that can aggressively sit, fight, and anchor at the top of the pocket to maximize the room the QB has to work with, especially in shorter drop backs.

I also felt that a priority for this team is improving protection on the interior offensive line and setting the top of the pocket for Eli. Keep Eli's pocket clean, give him some room to step into throws, let him trust you so he can keep his eyes downfield, and he's a killer. Richburg going to his natural Center position, adding Schwartz at guard, and now likely moving Pugh to guard really goes a long way in taking care of that. It's a 2-in-1 value, also bringing a gigantic anticipated improvement in run blocking. Richburg from guard to his natural position at center, Schwartz basically like a new addition for Jerry, Pugh from tackle to his natural NFL position of guard, and Flowers at RT for Pugh are honestly all likely improvements in regards to run blocking compared to those who played the position last year. 4 upgrades in the run game. And hopefully Beatty with a healthy offseason to work on technique finds improvement. And we now have a core trio of young, early drafted talent. And what they anticipate is our LT of the future - which is what I wanted all along. Which I actually do think he can be now with consideration of scheme and philosophy here with this football team.

3. I didn't consider age, improvement trajectory, and football character.

First game I evaluated of Flowers was vs Nebraska and Randy Gregory and his first impression wasn't a good one in regards to pass protection. First impression likely influenced the glasses I saw the rest thru. I thought he should go back to school for his senior year after watching it. However if you watch about 5 or 6 games in order from earliest to latest, you see significant improvement and growth technically throughout the season. Set gets a lot better. He played 3 years at 18, 19, and 20 and will be 21 playing for us this year. Very young, raw, growing. One of the most important things in evaluating prospects is to consider trajectory and look at the growth from year to year and then within their last season. I don't usually have the time or access for that. Doing it now that I know who our guy is though, its nice to see the growth and helps me feel positive in that continuing going forward.

On top of that, I only really evaluated the tape and these guys as players and didn't dig into their character. Learning about this kid and who he is post-draft has significantly boosted my opinion of him. A kid who absolutely loves the game. Loves the grind, loves to work, a desire to get better and be great. Lives, eats, and breaths football. Apparently he didn't even go out much at miami or do anything else, he's just one of those football guys. I'm all about that. Work ethic, determination, passion, drive… those are the most underlooked aspects of the game. It matters. He's got it. Quiet kid, but just nasty and about business.

Also, while he is raw and doesn't have as high of a floor as you usually would like picking this early, floor and ceiling are fluid in conjunction with character and work ethic. Knowing what I now know about his drive for improvement, desire to be great, etc, I'm not too concerned about where he's at. He's going to improve a ton. He wants it. He'll put in the work. Hardest working guy on the miami team supposedly, gym rat. Make technique work and flexibility his new gym, he's strong enough. But he'll put in the work.

4. Odd draft circumstances and the benefit of hindsight.

With Gregory and Ray's issues causing their fall, Washington taking Scherff, La'el Collins' circumstances, and Clemmings medical free-fall - our options at 9 weren't what I thought they were going to be. Heck, they weren't actually what I thought they were at the time. The La'el Collins stuff and Clemmings injury stuff especially. Knowing now that Clemmings and Collins weren't options in the first 2 rounds, knowing how the board fell, and having a shifted philosophical perspective in regard to our needs and priorities up front, it would be tough for me to argue for any other offensive lineman.

Peat is a possibility, but he's soft and flowers is nasty. He's technically sound in Stanford's methods, but inconsistent in using them. Flowers is a technical mess waiting to be molded with our desired technique. Miami has a recent history of underdeveloped talents who improve in the league. Peat regressed from sophomore to junior year, Flowers progressed significantly throughout his senior season. Peat's dedication and commitment are questioned, Flowers is truly driven and passionate. Flowers is definitely more raw, but I'm okay with that given the faith I have in him to put the work in. I'm a huge Humphries fan, and I think he plays with the bend, leverage, base, feet, and functional power to be a better presence than he was in the run game in college with added weight and strength, but he hasn't shown he can do it yet with pads on since adding the weight. Flowers would've gone the pick after us apparently, and it wasn't like anyone was trying to trade up in this draft.

Fisher has negative 0 functional power. Ogbuehi is soft, underpowered, injured, and raw. Donovan Smith at round 2 vs Flowers in round 1 is the only interesting debate, but his dedication and commitment have been questioned unlike Flowers, and we would've had to trade up for him like we did for Landon Collins since TB wound up taking him right after our Collins pick. So it would be Donovan Smith after the same trade up and your choice of whoever else was available at round 1, pick 9. Given our need at OL and S, I definitely prefer the way it shook out than Smith and choice of available at 9. Premier talents at our 2 biggest positions of need. And then getting Diggy, who I'd have been fine with us taking with either of our first two picks (fell bc medical & old), is the icing on the cake of an incredible top 3 rounds.

5. I over nitpicked Flowers' movement skills and fluidity.

Make no mistake about it, this kid has issues. Issues beyond technique. They call him a great athlete, but he's not as athletic as portrayed. He's tight in the lower half. He struggles to play with a wide base and knee bend in protection. He's not efficient in his footwork and redirection because of it. He's off balance a lot because of it. He can struggle to anchor despite how strong and heavy he is because of it. And flexibility and fluidity are maybe the toughest attribute to significantly improve at this point. It can be improved somewhat though and he seems to have the drive to work at it.

But even as it is, if he can significantly improve technically and learn to play his game to his personal strengths and our scheme, he can be great. First, back him off the ball. He too often played way too close to the LOS setting up off the ball or the center instead of the guard. Get him back as far as he can without being in the backfield and he won't feel so pressured to the corner in his set and play more under control, patient, and efficient. Second, really, really, really work on the hand placement and synching up the punch with the feet. Get him to set with his hands inside, get him to punch, get him to use his length. Third, eliminate the false step with his inside foot before his initial kick. Fixable stuff. And fixing that will make a massive difference in his ability in protection.

The guy is 6'6" 330 with 34.5 arms. It doesn't have to be pretty the same as it does with Humphries at 280 or Collins at 305. And its not. But thats ok. If it was TB might've taken him over Winston. Don't find many guys like that at 330. Play patient, play inside out. Trust your length and force them to try to go thru you or run the hump. Long way to go around, big man to go thru. I wish he could sink and redirect and anchor better, but if he becomes a great technician, it won't be necessary. Just needs to learn to be more consistently under control so he's balanced enough to engage. Don't try to dance with the athletes, force them to go thru you or around you. Play patient. I actually think he was heavier at Miami and lost weight for the process which pushed him up boards (pro day was apparently very impressive). If not, I honestly think he could drop to 320 and it would do wonders for his ability to move more efficiently in protection - he's strong enough to not need those 10 pounds. He's flawed now, and I'm not worry-free about him in protection both now and in the future, but what he'll bring to the run game makes it worth it.

-----

So all in all, I'm on board with the pick with all that considered. I'm all about nasty. I'm all about players that TRULY love the game and sacrifice elsewhere, "football guys". I'm all about players that want to work, want to improve, want to be great. I'm completely on board with using the top pick in this draft to grab the top offensive lineman available on their board. When you consider this kid is a plus run blocker, has rare/elite strength, and solid athleticism with that type of drive - you really can't go wrong. Flaherty has some work to do in guiding this kid, lets see what he can do with a willing, raw, and talented kid. I love the improvement in the OL. Beatty/Richburg/Walton/Jerry/Pugh vs Beatty/Pugh/Richburg/Schwartz/Flowers. We could potential be better at 4 spots. Hell, we could be better at 5 if Beatty improves in a healthy offseason. The draft couldn't have worked out any better to me in the first 3 rounds now that I know about Collins and Clemmings. 3 first round players and in the order of priority of need. Maybe his value isn't necessarily in the top 10 in most drafts and he may not be an elite LT prospect in a pass heavy vertical offense, but he's got big upside as a difference making offensive lineman for us. And if you consider the offense and keep in mind Will Beatty's play last year, its not crazy to think Flowers could better that in the future in protection with much more to offer in the ground game. Size and length let you play a different game in space than guys who have to win with feet and technique. And if not, he'll be a good player somewhere, whether RT or G. Which makes it safe enough since he won't be a bust. And that immediate boost to our run game is much needed. Along with improving interior protection moving Pugh inside. So many things. Not my favorite prospect I've ever evaluated because of his lack of fluidity and heavy footedness in protection, but I am fully on board at this point and excited for his future, his upside, his nasty, and his compete. We needed this, and I'm thrilled it was an offensive lineman in round 1, especially with how the board fell.
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minutemancl


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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Applause Applause Bravo sean.

I'm not sure if you watched the interviews with him on giants.com, but he's been asked a couple times about one area he wants to improve on the most. Every time he's asked, before the question is even finished being asked, he responds "hand placement". Flowers is a very smart kid and seems eager to getting back to work and getting better. Very similar in that regard to our 1st round pick last year.

But this is an excellent write up. Whether you actually believe it or are just willing yourself to believe it, the Giants made the right pick this year.
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aceinthehouse wrote:
But why not maintain that dominance? You guys were there...

Let me give you my personal opinion, on what I think has happened.
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.sean.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

minutemancl wrote:
Applause Applause Bravo sean.

I'm not sure if you watched the interviews with him on giants.com, but he's been asked a couple times about one area he wants to improve on the most. Every time he's asked, before the question is even finished being asked, he responds "hand placement". Flowers is a very smart kid and seems eager to getting back to work and getting better. Very similar in that regard to our 1st round pick last year.

But this is an excellent write up. Whether you actually believe it or are just willing yourself to believe it, the Giants made the right pick this year.


I hadn't watched them until just now, but yea, that's good to know he's so on top of that. Will go a long way from just one area of work. Hope he works on getting a little more flexible and lighter on his feet in change of direction in protection as well. They definitely made the right pick. I'm completely on board. Especially with how the rest of the draft shook out.
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dkebones


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well done man. terrific read. if you ever start you're own blog, I'll be the first to register. Smile
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scrimmage


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent write up. Really looking forward to the injection of nastiness he's gonna bring to this o-line
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redsoxsuck05


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're an amazing poster. Never leave
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Extremely impressive work. Loved reading through this all of this.
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GmenSeattle


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acgott wrote:
Extremely impressive work. Loved reading through this all of this.


Yea if he keeps this up he'll take my mod hat from me. Razz
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NYGiantsman10


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope that everyone on the line stays healthy. If they do watching Flowers crush bodies and Andre 3000 run right behind him will be a thing of beauty
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Gmen


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew all this before the draft. Wink Laughing
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.sean.


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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2015 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to all with the kind words

dkebones wrote:
well done man. terrific read. if you ever start you're own blog, I'll be the first to register. Smile


I've had a lot of people tell me that. I tried once but the website building thing just wasn't my forte and I gave it up before it was even put together to put up any type of content

GmenSeattle wrote:
Acgott wrote:
Extremely impressive work. Loved reading through this all of this.


Yea if he keeps this up he'll take my mod hat from me. Razz


That hat would never fit me

NYGiantsman10 wrote:
I hope that everyone on the line stays healthy. If they do watching Flowers crush bodies and Andre 3000 run right behind him will be a thing of beauty


Yea health is key. Not just on the OL, everywhere. We've had it rough the past couple years. Really liking the way this roster is looking, feeling good about things. But a lot of it is luck with health with key guys and at thin positions.

Gmen wrote:
I knew all this before the draft. Wink Laughing


Props
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LeftTackle51


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree 100% with everything you wrote. Especially the Beatty stuff. As an OL guy, I wince every time I watch him play. I don't care what PFF grades him as, he's so technically unsound with his hand placement that I can't bare to watch.

Heading into the draft I wanted La'el badly, but with the investigation and what not it became clear that he was not going to be an option. I really didn't think that any OL would be off the board at 9 and worst case scenario we "settle" for Scherff, who I wasn't huge on as a OT, but I could get on board with the pick.

I as well sort of poisoned my mind regarding Flowers in the pre-draft process, I saw his hands, the way he drops his post, the false step in his kickslide etc. and I really didn't give him another thought. These are all things that can be fixed in time. Ideally you wouldn't pick a player at 9 who would need all these amendments to his technique but it was the hand we were dealt. I love Pugh as a player, but he does give up some things physically when going against bigger/stronger players. Flowers won't. At 6'6 330 and strong as an ox, he'll be able to match up against those 300lb 5T that Pugh sometimes struggles with on the edge. Inside Pugh will be a really, really good run blocker. At times he got too wound up, ducking his head against guys outside and would get ran around, inside that won't be as big an issue.

I'm really excited to see this line. I was really, really high on Richburg last year, and I think he's going to be a top 10 center this year. Schwartz when healthy can play against anyone, big guys, quick guys, it doesn't matter. We can help Flowers out early in pass protection, with chips, TE help, and sliding his way. Our run game should be back and I am ecstatic.
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NYGiantsman10


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what I like the most about Flowers besides the obvious raw talent is his character. He's very close with his father, he loves to work out, and he plays offensive line because he likes crushing people. He should fit right in
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dkebones


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NYGiantsman10 wrote:
I think what I like the most about Flowers besides the obvious raw talent is his character. He's very close with his father, he loves to work out, and he plays offensive line because he likes crushing people. He should fit right in


fit right in? naw, he should be the model for the line. be nice to actually have some nasty back on this line of what's felt like choir boys. Laughing
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Kodaraw


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFF is looking for a part-time analyst Sean. After reading this, you should apply.
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