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Vikefan79
Joined: 05 Apr 2005
Posts: 25081
Location: Atlanta
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 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| milanb wrote: | | Purplexing wrote: |
Staying on topic, my expectations are somewhat in line with the draft analysts at the time of the 2011 draft, who seemed to think the Vikings needed to draft a QB to replace Webb. Thus, the QB in which the Vikings invested a #12 draft pick will hopefully develop according to plan, stumbling along the way, but making progress in a years where he has a full off season to train and learn, and new help on the OL and WR corps. |
Except that almost all of the top Draft analysts thought that Ponder was a 2nd or 3rd Round talent and that taking him 12th overall was a huge reach.
The fact of the matter is that Ponder did absolutely nothing last year to prove his critics wrong, while Joe Webb showed that the 2010 win against the Eagles wasn't a fluke. |
Thats why they are analysts and not running NFL teams because there were a few teams ready to take Ponder in the first if he made it to their pick.
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Zephiel
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 1910
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't know what your getting with the 2nd or 3rd rounder thing... He was a late first / early second in most minds, if I recall correctly. He wouldn't have lasted to our pick in the second that year anyway. |
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Hammertime52
Joined: 15 Jan 2012
Posts: 5085
Location: South Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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I think Ponder will wind up being an above average QB. From what i watched this season he played pretty well considering his receiving targets, and offensive line. He did play like a rookie but i have high expectations for him.
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dc_vikingfan
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Posts: 2111
Location: Washington DC
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| milanb wrote: | | Purplexing wrote: |
Staying on topic, my expectations are somewhat in line with the draft analysts at the time of the 2011 draft, who seemed to think the Vikings needed to draft a QB to replace Webb. Thus, the QB in which the Vikings invested a #12 draft pick will hopefully develop according to plan, stumbling along the way, but making progress in a years where he has a full off season to train and learn, and new help on the OL and WR corps. |
Except that almost all of the top Draft analysts thought that Ponder was a 2nd or 3rd Round talent and that taking him 12th overall was a huge reach.
The fact of the matter is that Ponder did absolutely nothing last year to prove his critics wrong, while Joe Webb showed that the 2010 win against the Eagles wasn't a fluke. |
Ponder was given the 3rd/2nd grade pre-Senoir Bowl. It made sense he doesn't have elite arm and was coming off a injury. Post Senior Bowl every analysts had him as early 2nd round prospect that can move into the 1st. Heck most people were predicting Ponder and Dalton to be pick in the top 20 the night before the draft. My thing is yes it is good to get good value for your picks. However, QB is such a inexact science you gotta sometimes just get the one you love and move forward.
If the oline is at least average this year I expect Ponder to have a very good year. I want to see less silly turnovers and better medium throw accuracy.
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| Enrage wrote: | I love how everyone says "draft BPA" and we draft BPA and everyone still whines.  |
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this providence
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 10962
Location: Ugh.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| dc_vikingfan wrote: | | Ponder was given the 3rd/2nd grade pre-Senoir Bowl. It made sense he doesn't have elite arm and was coming off a injury. Post Senior Bowl every analysts had him as early 2nd round prospect that can move into the 1st. Heck most people were predicting Ponder and Dalton to be pick in the top 20 the night before the draft. My thing is yes it is good to get good value for your picks. However, QB is such a inexact science you gotta sometimes just get the one you love and move forward. |
That's how I recall the process as well.
However, my big issue then and still is now, is that this team bungled their roster evaluation horribly. It was painfully obvious this wasn't an ideal situation to bring a rookie QB into. Let alone they should have known any QB taken anywhere in the draft would have been thrown to the fire early.
Of course, all that is ignoring the fact that this roster was so bad that they would have been a lock to pick in the top 5 the next year anyway. So why force the issue and pick the 4th QB in a draft when you could just as easily build up the team to the point where it would more easily accommodate a rookie QB a year later?
And here we are... |
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Kellerman
Joined: 16 May 2010
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Location: Amsterdam
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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The whole 'some analysts had him as a 2nd round pick' line is such a complete non-argument, even without taking into account that 99% of draft analysts are wrong 99% of the time.
His play on the field is what matters. His draft status according to 'some' analysts, doesn't.
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milanb
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Zephiel wrote: | | I don't know what your getting with the 2nd or 3rd rounder thing... He was a late first / early second in most minds, if I recall correctly. He wouldn't have lasted to our pick in the second that year anyway. |
The NFL Network gave him a 6.5/10 going into the Draft. That's a mid-3rd round grade.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/christian-ponder?id=2495215
ESPN wasn't that high on him either. And those are the top two draft sites out there.
| Kellerman wrote: | The whole 'some analysts had him as a 2nd round pick' line is such a complete non-argument, even without taking into account that 99% of draft analysts are wrong 99% of the time.
His play on the field is what matters. His draft status according to 'some' analysts, doesn't. |
I agree.
I was merely responding to people going on about how all the "analysts" thought that Ponder was the real deal a year ago.
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vikingsrule
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 39482
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Im sure if the draft analysts were truly experts as people seem to claim them to be, they would be hired by professional NFL teams. Would they not. Teams dont do that because they know analysts are generally jokes, and do not have any true knowledge of what is actually happening and how teams actually regard players. |
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milanb
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| vikingsrule wrote: | | Im sure if the draft analysts were truly experts as people seem to claim them to be, they would be hired by professional NFL teams. Would they not. Teams dont do that because they know analysts are generally jokes, and do not have any true knowledge of what is actually happening and how teams actually regard players. |
The NFL Network is owned by the NFL and seems to have some sort of pipeline into the NFL Scouting Collective. Their analysis tends to be a pretty accurate reflection what the general opinion of each player is among the 32 teams.
Of course, scouting and drafting is not an exact science and individual teams can give the same player vastly different grades.
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vikingsrule
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 39482
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| milanb wrote: | | vikingsrule wrote: | | Im sure if the draft analysts were truly experts as people seem to claim them to be, they would be hired by professional NFL teams. Would they not. Teams dont do that because they know analysts are generally jokes, and do not have any true knowledge of what is actually happening and how teams actually regard players. |
The NFL Network is owned by the NFL and seems to have some sort of pipeline into the NFL Scouting Collective. Their analysis tends to be a pretty accurate reflection what the general opinion of each player is among the 32 teams.
Of course, scouting and drafting is not an exact science and individual teams can give the same player vastly different grades. |
Agreed, it isnt an exact science. even professional scouts, some teams will have a certain player as a top 10 pick, yet others may have that same player as a 2nd round pick. Look at Tyson Alualu. |
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turf2grass
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 320
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Ponder should put up averages per game similar to Cam and Andy last year (passing wise) or we wasted our 1st last year. I didn't like the pick last year and if he doesn't hit the above benchmarks I'll really dislike it next year. |
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vikingsrule
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 39482
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| turf2grass wrote: | | Ponder should put up averages per game similar to Cam and Andy last year (passing wise) or we wasted our 1st last year. I didn't like the pick last year and if he doesn't hit the above benchmarks I'll really dislike it next year. |
that makes no sense, what do Daltons and Newtons progression have to do with Ponder's. Newton was the first overall pick, and Dalton is playing on a playoff caliber team. |
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ktarinze
Joined: 08 Oct 2010
Posts: 927
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| minnvikes22 wrote: | | ktarinze wrote: | | wcblack34 wrote: | | Uncle Buck wrote: |
One final thing. If Peyton Manning ends up in Denver, maybe we can pick up another terrific QB prospect who can battle Ponder for the starting job.  |
The Broncos are shopping Adam Weber?!? |
id take that the QB named tim tebow any day over ponder. If he takes a couple steps forward ill be shocked. |
How can say that about Ponder? The O-line sucked last. We only have 1 decent WR in Harvin. And you want to give up on him?
Anyone that thinks Joe Webb is a starting QB in this league has no clue about the game of football. NONE!!!! |
he deserves a shot more than ponder. This also ruins your argument because web had the same weapons and did better imo. So why not give him a shot first. I'm not sold on web but I will give him a shot to start before ponder
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turf2grass
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Posts: 320
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| vikingsrule wrote: | | turf2grass wrote: | | Ponder should put up averages per game similar to Cam and Andy last year (passing wise) or we wasted our 1st last year. I didn't like the pick last year and if he doesn't hit the above benchmarks I'll really dislike it next year. |
that makes no sense, what do Daltons and Newtons progression have to do with Ponder's. Newton was the first overall pick, and Dalton is playing on a playoff caliber team. |
If you'd check their stats you'd see he doesn't have to improve that much. .07 - .13 TD's per game and decrease his int's by .06 to .12 per contest. If he can't do this in his second year to only match their production in their rookie years then he was a wasted pick. We would have been in the top 2 picks this year and could have gotten whoever was left or had our choice of Luck and RG3. I can also argue that Ponder has the best running back of the 3 behind him. Ponder's targets might not be as sexy as the others but if he is the end all be all he needs to make the players around him better. |
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wcblack34
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 3972
Location: Anywhere but Wisconsin.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ktarinze wrote: | | minnvikes22 wrote: | | ktarinze wrote: | | wcblack34 wrote: | | Uncle Buck wrote: |
One final thing. If Peyton Manning ends up in Denver, maybe we can pick up another terrific QB prospect who can battle Ponder for the starting job. |
The Broncos are shopping Adam Weber?!? |
id take that the QB named tim tebow any day over ponder. If he takes a couple steps forward ill be shocked. |
How can say that about Ponder? The O-line sucked last. We only have 1 decent WR in Harvin. And you want to give up on him?
Anyone that thinks Joe Webb is a starting QB in this league has no clue about the game of football. NONE!!!! |
he deserves a shot more than ponder. This also ruins your argument because web had the same weapons and did better imo. So why not give him a shot first. I'm not sold on web but I will give him a shot to start before ponder |
All Webb "deserves" is a chance to compete. Whether or not he will get that remains to be seen. But to give up on Ponder after 10 games, especially when he looked promising in a couple of them, is absolutely premature. Webb has looked very good in some games, and has looked very bad in some games. I will be interested to see how he looks with a full offseason working as only a QB. |
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