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TearsOfPurple
Joined: 17 Oct 2010
Posts: 526
Location: Mankato
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 Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Using Webb's Eagle game as a reason why he should be our starter is the same thing people said about Jackson's Cardinal game. It seems eerily similiar.
I love Webb, and I think he's the best backup in the league. But I don't think he's starter material. Backup QBs are so undervalued. What's wrong with having 2 good young QBs? 1 that is a starter, and 1 that comes in if the starter gets injured and turns the game upside down. |
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milanb
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 5167
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| TearsOfPurple wrote: | Using Webb's Eagle game as a reason why he should be our starter is the same thing people said about Jackson's Cardinal game. It seems eerily similiar.
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I'm beginning to think Shah's right. Truth and reason will only get you so far.
Joe Webb has three really good games in six appearances and he's compared to Tarvaris Jackson.
Christian Ponder has one good game in ten starts and is compared to pretty well every great QB in the history of the game.
Getting back on topic.
What do I expect from Christian Ponder? I think he's going to be better now that he's had ten games under his belt and an offseason to improve his game. He should be better at picking up the blitz and less prone to forcing the ball like he was last year. I really hope that the Vikings go out and get him a multi-pupose RB like Lemichael James, because I think he'd be a really good fit in this offence and could be the edge runner and outlet receiver that Ponder needs.
The flip side is that I expect Ponder to continue to struggle to throw the ball down the field. Setting aside the arm strength issues, I think that people are grossly underestimating the likely impact of not having a healthy Adrian Peterson there to draw the safeties in. Ponder likes to throw the ball into tight spaces, and now he's going to have one or two extra DBs to contend with on 1st and 2nd Down. Never mind that Ponder is a natural play action QB and the Musgrave offence is built around the play action pass (it's not much different from the Childress/Bevell offence in that regard).
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The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. — Ecclesiastes 9:11
But that’s the way to bet. — Jimmy The Greek
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SteelKing728
Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 10869
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| milanb wrote: |
What do I expect from Christian Ponder? I think he's going to be better now that he's had ten games under his belt and an offseason to improve his game. He should be better at picking up the blitz and less prone to forcing the ball like he was last year. I really hope that the Vikings go out and get him a multi-pupose RB like Lemichael James, because I think he'd be a really good fit in this offence and could be the edge runner and outlet receiver that Ponder needs.
The flip side is that I expect Ponder to continue to struggle to throw the ball down the field. Setting aside the arm strength issues, I think that people are grossly underestimating the likely impact of not having a healthy Adrian Peterson there to draw the safeties in. Ponder likes to throw the ball into tight spaces, and now he's going to have one or two extra DBs to contend with on 1st and 2nd Down. Never mind that Ponder is a natural play action QB and the Musgrave offence is built around the play action pass (it's not much different from the Childress/Bevell offence in that regard). |
I didn't quote the comparison's you made, but ya, they are ridiculous. I think everyone here can come to the same conclusion that both Ponder and Webb are "unproven". That is, no one knows for sure what will be of their careers, even if they weren't spectacular this past season.
But the points you make are so true. Minnesota NEEDS to put more talent around these guys. It just seems crazy the fact that we've ignored our Oline for years. We drafted Sullivan who's looking like a legit Center, and Phil Loadholt who is an absolute drive killer. Otherwise, we've hoped for the best from All pro Steve Hutchinson, and what should be career backups in Anthony Herrera and Charlie Johnson.
How do you ignore the talent that has been floating around in FA these past few weeks. I'm not talking about overpaying for a guy like Meachem, or Garcon, but their was talent out there at a reasonable price to put around our QBs, and other than John Carlson, and Jerome Felton (FB's don't do much in our system anyways), we've done nothing.
I'm gonna hope like hell we have an all star draft, because if we don't, this is going to get uglier, and uglier. Not a single QB in NFL history could survive behind that line we have as of right now.
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Thanks Jamison on that avi.
2013 Adopt a Minnesota Viking - Jared Allen - DE - #69 |
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woodrow_05
Joined: 15 Nov 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, so it's a rebuilding year. Here we go...
Trade...
Jared Allen & Antoine Winfield to the Dallas Cowboys.
Why the Cowboys. They were said to be in the hunt for Mario Williams and they need corner back help, both Allen & Winfield solve those issues.
VIKINGS (receive)
1st round pick #14 & 5th round pick (142nd overall)
Trade...
Adrian Peterson to the Cleveland Browns.
VIKINGS (receive)
1st round pick #22 & 2nd round pick (#36 overall)
Peterson will come back and be at least 90% the same back he was with us but the trade will give the Vikings two more picks to help in the rebuilding year and give the Browns a running back better than they've had since Jim Brown.
VIKINGS DRAFT...
1st round
#3 Matt Kalil - left tackle. instant starter that replaces Charlie Johnson. Pro Bowl caliber. franchise material.
#14 David DeCastro - left guard. instant starter that pushes Charlie Johnson to right guard. franchise material.
#22 Michael Floyd - wide receiver. perfect fit for the Vikings in the youth movement. big strong target for Christian Ponder to find for the next several years. with him being young and locked up in a rookie wage scale for at least four years it will give us the ability to lock Percy Harvin up next year too.
2nd round
#35 Stephen Hill - wide receiver. with Hill, Floyd and Harvin we will have a solid young core of receivers for years to come. using our first four picks on offensive talent allows us to use the rest of the picks on defense as well as next years early round picks, then the rebuild should be complete.
#36 Chase Minnifield - replaces Winfield and will eventually get to his level. |
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Virginia Viking
Joined: 27 Dec 2007
Posts: 2452
Location: Unemployed in VA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| woodrow_05 wrote: | Alright, so it's a rebuilding year. Here we go...
Trade...
Jared Allen & Antoine Winfield to the Dallas Cowboys.
Why the Cowboys. They were said to be in the hunt for Mario Williams and they need corner back help, both Allen & Winfield solve those issues.
VIKINGS (receive)
1st round pick #14 & 5th round pick (142nd overall)
Trade...
Adrian Peterson to the Cleveland Browns.
VIKINGS (receive)
1st round pick #22 & 2nd round pick (#36 overall)
Peterson will come back and be at least 90% the same back he was with us but the trade will give the Vikings two more picks to help in the rebuilding year and give the Browns a running back better than they've had since Jim Brown.
VIKINGS DRAFT...
1st round
#3 Matt Kalil - left tackle. instant starter that replaces Charlie Johnson. Pro Bowl caliber. franchise material.
#14 David DeCastro - left guard. instant starter that pushes Charlie Johnson to right guard. franchise material.
#22 Michael Floyd - wide receiver. perfect fit for the Vikings in the youth movement. big strong target for Christian Ponder to find for the next several years. with him being young and locked up in a rookie wage scale for at least four years it will give us the ability to lock Percy Harvin up next year too.
2nd round
#35 Stephen Hill - wide receiver. with Hill, Floyd and Harvin we will have a solid young core of receivers for years to come. using our first four picks on offensive talent allows us to use the rest of the picks on defense as well as next years early round picks, then the rebuild should be complete.
#36 Chase Minnifield - replaces Winfield and will eventually get to his level. |
Interesting...however, Minnifield will never replace Winfield. I doubt that Minnifield will ever crack the starting lineup in the NFL. He is VERY overrated, in my opinion. His mental lapses alone are unforgiveable. |
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wcblack34
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Posts: 3976
Location: Anywhere but Wisconsin.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| woodrow_05 wrote: | Alright, so it's a rebuilding year. Here we go...
Trade...
Jared Allen & Antoine Winfield to the Dallas Cowboys.
Why the Cowboys. They were said to be in the hunt for Mario Williams and they need corner back help, both Allen & Winfield solve those issues.
VIKINGS (receive)
1st round pick #14 & 5th round pick (142nd overall)
Trade...
Adrian Peterson to the Cleveland Browns.
VIKINGS (receive)
1st round pick #22 & 2nd round pick (#36 overall)
Peterson will come back and be at least 90% the same back he was with us but the trade will give the Vikings two more picks to help in the rebuilding year and give the Browns a running back better than they've had since Jim Brown.
VIKINGS DRAFT...
1st round
#3 Matt Kalil - left tackle. instant starter that replaces Charlie Johnson. Pro Bowl caliber. franchise material.
#14 David DeCastro - left guard. instant starter that pushes Charlie Johnson to right guard. franchise material.
#22 Michael Floyd - wide receiver. perfect fit for the Vikings in the youth movement. big strong target for Christian Ponder to find for the next several years. with him being young and locked up in a rookie wage scale for at least four years it will give us the ability to lock Percy Harvin up next year too.
2nd round
#35 Stephen Hill - wide receiver. with Hill, Floyd and Harvin we will have a solid young core of receivers for years to come. using our first four picks on offensive talent allows us to use the rest of the picks on defense as well as next years early round picks, then the rebuild should be complete.
#36 Chase Minnifield - replaces Winfield and will eventually get to his level. |
You must be a Cowboy fan.
Ignoring the fact that this is a thread about our expectations for Christian Ponder, your idea is horrible and severely undervalues Jared Allen and Adrian Peterson. Plus it creates two new enormous, gaping holes at RB and DE. No thanks. |
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Gordon Bombay
Joined: 17 May 2010
Posts: 1738
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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Trading two players that will likely be in the hall of fame some day before they reach 30 is not good business. Especially when you're trying to get a stadium.
Also the value in those trades are not good at all. A player almost breaks a single season record at a premier position and he only gets a mid first and a fifth? No.
Peterson's value in that trade makes sense since he's coming off an injury but it's the ultimate sell low scenario.
_________________
^jgoldiscool has great work!
| Finnerception wrote: | | If LeBron James starred in Space Jam 2, he would leave the Toon Squad for the Monstars in the middle of the movie. |
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disaacs
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 19972
Location: Brownbackistan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Gordon Bombay wrote: | | Trading two players that will likely be in the hall of fame some day before they reach 30 is not good business. |
Well, that would only happen if they traded Allen within the next 2 weeks, considering he turns 30 14 days from now. 
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Thx to Uncle Buck! |
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woodrow_05
Joined: 15 Nov 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| wcblack34 wrote: | | woodrow_05 wrote: | Alright, so it's a rebuilding year. Here we go...
Trade...
Jared Allen & Antoine Winfield to the Dallas Cowboys.
Why the Cowboys. They were said to be in the hunt for Mario Williams and they need corner back help, both Allen & Winfield solve those issues.
VIKINGS (receive)
1st round pick #14 & 5th round pick (142nd overall)
Trade...
Adrian Peterson to the Cleveland Browns.
VIKINGS (receive)
1st round pick #22 & 2nd round pick (#36 overall)
Peterson will come back and be at least 90% the same back he was with us but the trade will give the Vikings two more picks to help in the rebuilding year and give the Browns a running back better than they've had since Jim Brown.
VIKINGS DRAFT...
1st round
#3 Matt Kalil - left tackle. instant starter that replaces Charlie Johnson. Pro Bowl caliber. franchise material.
#14 David DeCastro - left guard. instant starter that pushes Charlie Johnson to right guard. franchise material.
#22 Michael Floyd - wide receiver. perfect fit for the Vikings in the youth movement. big strong target for Christian Ponder to find for the next several years. with him being young and locked up in a rookie wage scale for at least four years it will give us the ability to lock Percy Harvin up next year too.
2nd round
#35 Stephen Hill - wide receiver. with Hill, Floyd and Harvin we will have a solid young core of receivers for years to come. using our first four picks on offensive talent allows us to use the rest of the picks on defense as well as next years early round picks, then the rebuild should be complete.
#36 Chase Minnifield - replaces Winfield and will eventually get to his level. |
You must be a Cowboy fan.
Ignoring the fact that this is a thread about our expectations for Christian Ponder, your idea is horrible and severely undervalues Jared Allen and Adrian Peterson. Plus it creates two new enormous, gaping holes at RB and DE. No thanks. |
and I think I hit on the expectations for Christian Ponder... there should be no reason he would fail with the picks I chose...
he will have severely upgraded talent on the offensive line and in the wide receivers... Floyd, Hill, and Harvin will give him solid targets for years to come and thats not even counting Carlson and Rudolph. he better not fail.
and no i am by far not a Cowboys fan... I traded away our best talent to the teams that would need those players the most and would give us the best in return but, you are right, i didnt give us enough for Allen and Winfield. for those two we should at least get a 1st and two 3rds (that would be more than fair) |
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woodrow_05
Joined: 15 Nov 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Gordon Bombay wrote: | Trading two players that will likely be in the hall of fame some day before they reach 30 is not good business. Especially when you're trying to get a stadium.
Also the value in those trades are not good at all. A player almost breaks a single season record at a premier position and he only gets a mid first and a fifth? No.
Peterson's value in that trade makes sense since he's coming off an injury but it's the ultimate sell low scenario. |
well... when you are trying to rebuild your team you need to have a few down years to ensure solid draft picks, how do you do that? trade away your best talent. that will not only ensure you get great picks in return for those players but it will also give you a great chance to draft high next year and next year... if Ponder doesnt pan out you've got Matt Barkley |
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milanb
Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 5167
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| woodrow_05 wrote: |
and I think I hit on the expectations for Christian Ponder... there should be no reason he would fail with the picks I chose...
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You mean: apart from having no running game and the worst defence in the NFL?
_________________
The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. — Ecclesiastes 9:11
But that’s the way to bet. — Jimmy The Greek
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ktarinze
Joined: 08 Oct 2010
Posts: 927
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| milanb wrote: | | TearsOfPurple wrote: | Using Webb's Eagle game as a reason why he should be our starter is the same thing people said about Jackson's Cardinal game. It seems eerily similiar.
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I'm beginning to think Shah's right. Truth and reason will only get you so far.
Joe Webb has three really good games in six appearances and he's compared to Tarvaris Jackson.
Christian Ponder has one good game in ten starts and is compared to pretty well every great QB in the history of the game.
Getting back on topic.
What do I expect from Christian Ponder? I think he's going to be better now that he's had ten games under his belt and an offseason to improve his game. He should be better at picking up the blitz and less prone to forcing the ball like he was last year. I really hope that the Vikings go out and get him a multi-pupose RB like Lemichael James, because I think he'd be a really good fit in this offence and could be the edge runner and outlet receiver that Ponder needs.
The flip side is that I expect Ponder to continue to struggle to throw the ball down the field. Setting aside the arm strength issues, I think that people are grossly underestimating the likely impact of not having a healthy Adrian Peterson there to draw the safeties in. Ponder likes to throw the ball into tight spaces, and now he's going to have one or two extra DBs to contend with on 1st and 2nd Down. Never mind that Ponder is a natural play action QB and the Musgrave offence is built around the play action pass (it's not much different from the Childress/Bevell offence in that regard). |
this
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All in for the underdog vikings making a push this season. |
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