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Spiel612
Joined: 19 Oct 2005
Posts: 15316
Location: Around Highway 61
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 Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| BaltimoreTerp wrote: | | BlaqOptic wrote: | | TommyC376 wrote: | | BlackandBlue wrote: | | The Giants are an example of how an elite passing game and an elite pass rush wins in November, December, and January. Signing Mario doesn't give the Bills either of those things. Mario is not an elite pass rusher. |
"You gotta pay the troll toll to get into this boys soul" |
Last time Williams eclipsed 10 sacks? Last time he was top 5 in pressures in a single season?
Yeah... he's not an elite pass rusher. Or a viable option to remain healthy. |
How's that now? |
Two straight season ending injuries? 13 missed games out of 32 in the last two seasons?
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BaltimoreTerp
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 24825
Location: Brooklyn, New York
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| Spiel612 wrote: | | BaltimoreTerp wrote: | | BlaqOptic wrote: | | TommyC376 wrote: | | BlackandBlue wrote: | | The Giants are an example of how an elite passing game and an elite pass rush wins in November, December, and January. Signing Mario doesn't give the Bills either of those things. Mario is not an elite pass rusher. |
"You gotta pay the troll toll to get into this boys soul" |
Last time Williams eclipsed 10 sacks? Last time he was top 5 in pressures in a single season?
Yeah... he's not an elite pass rusher. Or a viable option to remain healthy. |
How's that now? |
Two straight season ending injuries? 13 missed games out of 32 in the last two seasons? |
He missed only the final 3 games in 2010. That year, he played through the hernia strain for 2 months and still had 8.5 sacks on the season, and it doesn't seem to be anything resembling a long-term concern. It seems like something he could have possibly even finished the season with if the Texans weren't already far out of playoff contention.
In 2011, yes, he suffered the pectoral injury and was placed on IR after only 5 games (and he was producing at a sack-per-game clip at that point, mind you), but that still looks to be the only serious injury he has suffered in his career, and there's no reason to think he won't recover from it. And as I said before, I would think that red flags would have shown up on his physical if this was a lingering concern.
He had played every game in his career up till the 2010 season, got banged up one year, and then suffered one serious injury for one season that doesn't look right now like a long-term concern. That doesn't exactly equate into him being a long-term health risk. This isn't Grant Hill we're talking about here, just a guy who ended up on IR. That tends to happen in the NFL from time to time.
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Yibbyl
Joined: 21 Apr 2011
Posts: 2123
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| BaltimoreTerp wrote: | | Spiel612 wrote: | | BaltimoreTerp wrote: | | BlaqOptic wrote: | | TommyC376 wrote: | | BlackandBlue wrote: | | The Giants are an example of how an elite passing game and an elite pass rush wins in November, December, and January. Signing Mario doesn't give the Bills either of those things. Mario is not an elite pass rusher. |
"You gotta pay the troll toll to get into this boys soul" |
Last time Williams eclipsed 10 sacks? Last time he was top 5 in pressures in a single season?
Yeah... he's not an elite pass rusher. Or a viable option to remain healthy. |
How's that now? |
Two straight season ending injuries? 13 missed games out of 32 in the last two seasons? |
He missed only the final 3 games in 2010. That year, he played through the hernia strain for 2 months and still had 8.5 sacks on the season, and it doesn't seem to be anything resembling a long-term concern. It seems like something he could have possibly even finished the season with if the Texans weren't already far out of playoff contention.
In 2011, yes, he suffered the pectoral injury and was placed on IR after only 5 games (and he was producing at a sack-per-game clip at that point, mind you), but that still looks to be the only serious injury he has suffered in his career, and there's no reason to think he won't recover from it. And as I said before, I would think that red flags would have shown up on his physical if this was a lingering concern.
He had played every game in his career up till the 2010 season, got banged up one year, and then suffered one serious injury for one season that doesn't look right now like a long-term concern. That doesn't exactly equate into him being a long-term health risk. This isn't Grant Hill we're talking about here, just a guy who ended up on IR. That tends to happen in the NFL from time to time. |
A-ha! So, you admit that he actually missed 14, not 13, games in the last 2 years!  
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Kiwibrown
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 2053
Location: NZ
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| MaddHatter wrote: | | Kiwibrown wrote: | | MaddHatter wrote: | | Kiwibrown wrote: | | If a defensive end is going to get 16mil per year, what is his expected preformance? 20 sacks per year? |
That's ridiculous - 12-15/yr is a bit more realistic but even to hit 20 ONCE in your career is a phenomenal achievement. |
then iwould argue his pay is ridiculious. you can pay a rookie pass rusher less than 1 million per year and hey can get 8 or so sacks per year. that is a salary 16 times smalle with half as much production. |
I can make that same argument for every player and every position. Why pay Manning or Brees $20m/yr when you can get a Luck or RG3 for a quarter of that price and get atleast half their production? Because Football is a game of inches and that extra production could be the difference between 6-10 and 12-4. |
My thinking is along the lines of oppurtunity cost.
By using over 10% of your salary cap on one player you have less to spend on other players and positions, his contract is that of three good players.
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terbo559
Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 2742
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Can't believe Pats didn't take a glance and show interest in Mario Williams.
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Yibbyl
Joined: 21 Apr 2011
Posts: 2123
Location: Redding, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| Kiwibrown wrote: | | MaddHatter wrote: | | Kiwibrown wrote: | | MaddHatter wrote: | | Kiwibrown wrote: | | If a defensive end is going to get 16mil per year, what is his expected preformance? 20 sacks per year? |
That's ridiculous - 12-15/yr is a bit more realistic but even to hit 20 ONCE in your career is a phenomenal achievement. |
then iwould argue his pay is ridiculious. you can pay a rookie pass rusher less than 1 million per year and hey can get 8 or so sacks per year. that is a salary 16 times smalle with half as much production. |
I can make that same argument for every player and every position. Why pay Manning or Brees $20m/yr when you can get a Luck or RG3 for a quarter of that price and get atleast half their production? Because Football is a game of inches and that extra production could be the difference between 6-10 and 12-4. |
My thinking is along the lines of oppurtunity cost.
By using over 10% of your salary cap on one player you have less to spend on other players and positions, his contract is that of three good players. |
Though financial analysis plays a part in constructing a winning NFL roster, there is obviously more to it. You certainly wouldn't assign the exact same value to every position on your roster, right?. QB's, LT's, & DE's earn more for a reason. Further, other trade-offs must be accounted for when determining a player's salary, like local tax rates, cost of living, quality of life, etc. Maybe the Bills underpaid so many other players, that it literally freed up the money to make this deal with Mario possible. In focusing only on this contract's dollars, I think you have tried to over-simplify that which is just a little too complex. If it was really as easy as just signing 3 good players to a cold-weather team with a losing record every season over the past 7 years simply because we wanted them, almost any yahoo could be the Bills GM!
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mkkost84
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 4093
Location: Western Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a full breakdown of his contract.
http://wgr550.com/Bills-Mario-Williams--contract-breakdown/12570172
| Quote: | Now, a league source tells WGR the further breakdown of Williams' new deal with the Bills.
2012: Base salary of $5.9 million, signing bonus of $19 million, workout bonus of $100,000. Total money paid: $25,000,000. Notes: 2012 base salary is fully guaranteed. Unofficial cap number: $9,166,667
2013: Base salary of $6.5 million, option bonus of $8 million, workout bonus of $500,000. Total money paid: $15,000,000. Notes: 2013 base salary is guaranteed for injury only prior to option exercised. Unofficial cap number: $11,766,667
2014: Base salary of $1.9 million, roster bonus of $10.6 million, workout bonus of $500,000. Total money paid: $13,000,000. Notes: 2014 roster bonus is guaranteed for injury at time of signing. Unofficial cap number: $17,766,667
2015: Base salary of $12.1 million, roster bonus of $1 million, workout bonus of $500,000. Total money paid: $13,600,000. Unofficial cap number: $18,366,667
2016: Base salary of $11.5 million, roster bonus of $2.5 million, workout bonus of $500,000. Total money paid: $14,500,000. Unofficial cap number: $19,266,667
2017: Base salary of $11.4 million, roster bonus of $3.5 million. Total money paid: $14,900,000. Unofficial cap number: $19,666,667 |
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Kiwibrown
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 2053
Location: NZ
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Yibbyl wrote: | | Kiwibrown wrote: | | MaddHatter wrote: | | Kiwibrown wrote: | | MaddHatter wrote: | | Kiwibrown wrote: | | If a defensive end is going to get 16mil per year, what is his expected preformance? 20 sacks per year? |
That's ridiculous - 12-15/yr is a bit more realistic but even to hit 20 ONCE in your career is a phenomenal achievement. |
then iwould argue his pay is ridiculious. you can pay a rookie pass rusher less than 1 million per year and hey can get 8 or so sacks per year. that is a salary 16 times smalle with half as much production. |
I can make that same argument for every player and every position. Why pay Manning or Brees $20m/yr when you can get a Luck or RG3 for a quarter of that price and get atleast half their production? Because Football is a game of inches and that extra production could be the difference between 6-10 and 12-4. |
My thinking is along the lines of oppurtunity cost.
By using over 10% of your salary cap on one player you have less to spend on other players and positions, his contract is that of three good players. |
Though financial analysis plays a part in constructing a winning NFL roster, there is obviously more to it. You certainly wouldn't assign the exact same value to every position on your roster, right?. QB's, LT's, & DE's earn more for a reason. Further, other trade-offs must be accounted for when determining a player's salary, like local tax rates, cost of living, quality of life, etc. Maybe the Bills underpaid so many other players, that it literally freed up the money to make this deal with Mario possible. In focusing only on this contract's dollars, I think you have tried to over-simplify that which is just a little too complex. If it was really as easy as just signing 3 good players to a cold-weather team with a losing record every season over the past 7 years simply because we wanted them, almost any yahoo could be the Bills GM! |
I see what you are saying here it is a good point.
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fretgod99
Joined: 05 Aug 2005
Posts: 17792
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| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| mkkost84 wrote: | Here is a full breakdown of his contract.
http://wgr550.com/Bills-Mario-Williams--contract-breakdown/12570172
| Quote: | Now, a league source tells WGR the further breakdown of Williams' new deal with the Bills.
2012: Base salary of $5.9 million, signing bonus of $19 million, workout bonus of $100,000. Total money paid: $25,000,000. Notes: 2012 base salary is fully guaranteed. Unofficial cap number: $9,166,667
2013: Base salary of $6.5 million, option bonus of $8 million, workout bonus of $500,000. Total money paid: $15,000,000. Notes: 2013 base salary is guaranteed for injury only prior to option exercised. Unofficial cap number: $11,766,667
2014: Base salary of $1.9 million, roster bonus of $10.6 million, workout bonus of $500,000. Total money paid: $13,000,000. Notes: 2014 roster bonus is guaranteed for injury at time of signing. Unofficial cap number: $17,766,667
2015: Base salary of $12.1 million, roster bonus of $1 million, workout bonus of $500,000. Total money paid: $13,600,000. Unofficial cap number: $18,366,667
2016: Base salary of $11.5 million, roster bonus of $2.5 million, workout bonus of $500,000. Total money paid: $14,500,000. Unofficial cap number: $19,266,667
2017: Base salary of $11.4 million, roster bonus of $3.5 million. Total money paid: $14,900,000. Unofficial cap number: $19,666,667 |
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If he's sticking around after 2014, that roster bonus is going to be restructured into a signing bonus and will likely save the bills ~$7.5M against the cap. They'll probably cut bait or extend/restructure after that, considering the cap numbers in 2015-2017.
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| MrDrew wrote: | | Can somebody give me a good reason there's not a giant statue to fret somewhere? |
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Cutler06
Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 9573
Location: Westminster
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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What I find ironic...he said "It's not about the money"......well it sure ain't about the weather...the stadium.....you can take it from here, just will in the blank
It ain't about the ___________
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| big_palooka wrote: | | 1. The AFC West goes right through Denver. Respect to the Broncos.2. First Denver is a pretender. They are not making the playoffs, just like the Raiders. |
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EliteTexan80
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 37192
Location: Three time Mr. fanTASTic!
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| BaltimoreTerp wrote: | | Spiel612 wrote: | | BaltimoreTerp wrote: | | BlaqOptic wrote: | | TommyC376 wrote: | | BlackandBlue wrote: | | The Giants are an example of how an elite passing game and an elite pass rush wins in November, December, and January. Signing Mario doesn't give the Bills either of those things. Mario is not an elite pass rusher. |
"You gotta pay the troll toll to get into this boys soul" |
Last time Williams eclipsed 10 sacks? Last time he was top 5 in pressures in a single season?
Yeah... he's not an elite pass rusher. Or a viable option to remain healthy. |
How's that now? |
Two straight season ending injuries? 13 missed games out of 32 in the last two seasons? |
He missed only the final 3 games in 2010. That year, he played through the hernia strain for 2 months and still had 8.5 sacks on the season, and it doesn't seem to be anything resembling a long-term concern. It seems like something he could have possibly even finished the season with if the Texans weren't already far out of playoff contention.
In 2011, yes, he suffered the pectoral injury and was placed on IR after only 5 games (and he was producing at a sack-per-game clip at that point, mind you), but that still looks to be the only serious injury he has suffered in his career, and there's no reason to think he won't recover from it. And as I said before, I would think that red flags would have shown up on his physical if this was a lingering concern.
He had played every game in his career up till the 2010 season, got banged up one year, and then suffered one serious injury for one season that doesn't look right now like a long-term concern. That doesn't exactly equate into him being a long-term health risk. This isn't Grant Hill we're talking about here, just a guy who ended up on IR. That tends to happen in the NFL from time to time. |
To add to this:
1. The 2010 IR stint was more or less a precautionary measure; The Texans were out of contention, both Andre Johnson and Williams were put into neutral. Had the Texans had something to play for, both guys would of been out there.
2. Multiple reports coming out of Houston said that Williams could of been able to play in the 2nd round game against Baltimore had he not been IRed after week 5. His pec injury was bad, but he recovered quickly from it and should be a non-factor moving forward.
3. Prior to this, Williams had NEVER missed a game. His rookie year, he played all 16 games with plantar fasciatis in his left foot. He didn't even practice that season, just got shot up the night before games and played. His 3rd year, he played with an undisclosed shoulder injury for 14 games. Yet, did not miss a game. If anything, Williams' reputation has been to play through whatever injury is going on.
We shall see if the money changes that, but I doubt it. Work ethic has never been an issue for Williams, someone who put in a lot of time (with the wrong coaches) to become a good DE in this league.
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EliteTexan80
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 37192
Location: Three time Mr. fanTASTic!
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Cutler06 wrote: | What I find ironic...he said "It's not about the money"......well it sure ain't about the weather...the stadium.....you can take it from here, just will in the blank
It ain't about the ___________ |
If anything, I think the "family" approach is what got Williams to pick Buffalo. Prior to this offseason - when the Texans uncharacteristically let a few well known names go - the Texans were always known as a franchise loyal to players, letting home-grown talent stay on, even after they have outlived their usefulness. Prime example is David Carr, who was given a three year extension after the 2005 season, a season where he was clearly in over his head.
Bob McNair has a family environment in the Houston locker room. (Well, he USED to). When Buffalo had the DL take Williams out to dinner, coordinated a meet-and-greet with other players and their wives, invited Williams to have a sleep over at Jim Kelly's house...it replicated what Williams wanted, and that's a family environment, one that puts a premium on the player as a person, not just some gun for hire.
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Matts4313
Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 30416
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
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| Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| EliteTexan80 wrote: | | invited Williams to have a sleep over at Jim Kelly's house |
that's raunchy. Cant wait till TMZ gets a hold of that little nugget.
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